1256 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexanderCousland]

What:huh:?  When have I suggested Templars led Exalted Marches at all? 

 NICE TRY, you were the one suggesting I said Templars led Exalted Marches.

I've been arguing the opposite.

We agree, Templar' s dont Lead Exalted Marches.

 

The burden of proof lies with you if you want to prove the Templars had any substantial part in the Exalted Marches.

There is a pic in the DA Encyclopedia  of an army of people in Templar Armor under it's description of the Exalted Marches' s. Unfortunately I can't link it because I have the Kindle Fire version of the book. But it's a good read you should buy it:D

I know that Templars are trained specifically as an anti-Apostate/Maleficar/Abomination force and thus their numbers are focused in the Circles of Magi.  I know that the rest of them are spread out across the continent acting as guards in the Chantry's of Thedas and local Apostate hunters.  I know few of these duties can simply be abandoned under even very dire of circumstances.  You tell me which part of this leaves room for a standing army.

If you don't think the Templars were doing it, explain what exactly you think LEAD, means in this context, and how Templar manpower is required<_<

The amusing part is *you* are assuming that the Chantry is somehow light on Templar bodies and have in *your head* already arrived at the exact amount of manpower of The Templars. This imaginary number you've dreamed up apparently isnt enough for a standing army. 

The Chantry LEADS Exalted Marches. The Templars and Seeker' s are the Warrior/Authoritative branch of Chantry Power according to DA Encyclopedia. Unless you think Divine Justina herself was on the frontlines with Sword and Shield I dont know how Templars or Seekers wouldn't be involved in Exalted Marches in any significant way. 

Modifié par FreshIstay, 26 septembre 2013 - 04:47 .

[LobselVith8]

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote..

Kirkwall had plenty of templars outside the Circle, allowing Meredith to overtly rule over the city-state. I don't think it's silly as you seem to when the templars are religious soldiers who think they have certain rights given to them as the militant arm of the Chantry, such as their dominion over mages. If missionaries are being kicked out of the Dales and soldiers are sent to trespass into a kingdom, against the wishes of the inhabitants and the the rulers, then I don't see why you think the elves are to blame for the ensuing hostilities.

Kirkwall had a lot of Templars because it has a Circle, it was unusual even then and described as the center of Templar power in eastern Thedas.  Dominating a city state with no real competing military force is a far cry from invading a country with a standing army like the Dales.

Did the Chantry needlessly antagonize the elves?  Yes, I have said I acknowledge that.  But it was the elves who made the moronic decision to escalate things into all out war with Orlais instead of seeking an alternative route.  For that matter, the Chantry wouldn't have done that if the elves hadn't been so concerned with their self absorbed xenophobic superiority complex that they couldn't just let the humans preach and say their piece.  So yes, I place the blame for the destruction of the Dales squarely on the shoulders of the Elves.

If the Chantry invaded the Dales with templars, then the elves didn't start the war. And are you seriously condemning the elves because they wouldn't convert to the Chantry? Refusing to capitulate to the Chantry doesn't make the elves bad guys. The elves aren't villains for their desire to keep their own culture and follow their religion.

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote..

The templars are soldiers. I don't see why you think armed and armored soldiers invading a foreign nation shouldn't be interpreted as an act of war.

As I repeatedly tell you, they did not act as soldiers intent on conquest.  They couldn't have succeeded in such an effort if they tried.  They were escorts.  Their actions are no more an act of war than a US marine stepping over the Canadian border.  Being a soldier does not make your every step onto foreign soil an act of war.

And with that, I'm done for the night

The Dalish entry reads that templars entered after the elves kicked out the missionaries; the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves didn't convert. I'm not seeing where the invading templars were mere escorts, especially when they are soldiers. How do you think templars would react to seeing free mages in the Dales, particularly when they believe they have dominion over mages by divine right? Why do you try to downplay the fact that soldiers were sent to trespass into the territory of a foreign nation? 

Modifié par LobselVith8, 26 septembre 2013 - 11:50 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

FreshIstay wrote...

The amusing part is *you* are assuming that the Chantry is somehow light on Templar bodies and have in *your head* already arrived at the exact amount of manpower of The Templars. This imaginary number you've dreamed up apparently isnt enough for a standing army.

Because it makes sense they are.
Templars have duties that require their presence and cannot be lightly abandoned. And mantaing a standing army is BLOODY EXPNSIVE.

The Chantry LEADS Exalted Marches. The Templars and Seeker' s are the Warrior/Authoritative branch of Chantry Power according to DA Encyclopedia. Unless you think Divine Justina herself was on the frontlines with Sword and Shield I dont know how Templars or Seekers wouldn't be involved in Exalted Marches in any significant way.

You got to hung up on that world. Leading in a more general sense, not direct.
The Chantry gives a goal, an objective. Individual kings and generals lead the armies and the Chantry has no control voer them and what they do.
Of course, there would be templars in such armies, because there would probably be mages and they'd need escorts/guards.

[ianvillan]

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hypothetically speaking, if Red Crossing is where the templars were stationed, it explains why the elves attacked the town after the military arm of the Andrastian Chantry began to invade their kingdom.

The Templars aren't equipped to invade nations!  They stand guard in towns and have large garrisons in towers, probably in prominent Chantry's as well, but I have yet to see an instance where they were used as a standing army.  If they entered the Dales, it was not as an invasion force.  If the elves thought the best response to that was wholesale sacking and slaughter of a country that hadn't even sent them, they're idiots.

You mean the missionaries who were trespassing into the sovereign territory of the Dales, who were followed by armed and armored soldiers who began to cross into a nation that was independent of the Orlesian Empire?

If those soldiers were Templars, then they weren't part of Orlais to begin with.

To clarify, my position on the matter stands as thus:

The Chantry antagonized the Dales with missionaries with an armed escort.  Instead of dealing with it, the Dales made the colossally stupid move of attacking Orlais in response.

It like a nation here sending priests to another nation that refused them entry, and backing the priests up with armed Marines with the purpose to ensure that the priests go were they want and cannot be stopped even if it means firing on civilians or soldiers from that nation, we are to believe that it is not an act of war or the invaded country has no right to fight back against the aggressor.

lets say it was the Vatican and they were fully based in Rome that we should not attack them because they hide behind inside another nation.

[ianvillan]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

What?They are a part of Orlais,the Chantry's base of power is in Orlais,the Divine resides in Orlais. So how can they not be part of Orlais if their origins are with them?

Just because the Vatican is in Italy does not mean its a subdivision of the Italian government.  The Chantry is an autonomous organization even if they tend to favor the Orlesians and are based within their borders.

I'm not denying that they're affiliated, but to say that the actions of the Chantry are the actions of Orlais is disingenuous. 

Then the only way to stop the Chantry in a war they might have started if to attack them where they are and that happens to be the capital of Orlais. If Orlais never wanted a war with the Elves then they should of stopped the missionaries and Templars or expelled the Chantry from their boarders.

[Bleachrude]

If you pulled every single templar from every circle, every chantry and every apostate-hunting mission, the Chantry probably has a large number of bodies...might be large enough to match in terms of numbers any other nation...

But that's he problem..if you pull all these templars from their assigned positions, who exactly is doing their jobs?

[ianvillan]

No matter the number of Templar is it possible to agree that the Templars are a military arm of the Chantry.

If the Templars are a military arm of the Chantry then sending them into a foreign nation to make sure your missionaries are able to do what they want must be an act of war.

[AlexanderCousland]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

The amusing part is *you* are assuming that the Chantry is somehow light on Templar bodies and have in *your head* already arrived at the exact amount of manpower of The Templars. This imaginary number you've dreamed up apparently isnt enough for a standing army.

Because it makes sense they are.
Templars have duties that require their presence and cannot be lightly abandoned. And mantaing a standing army is BLOODY EXPNSIVE.

The Chantry LEADS Exalted Marches. The Templars and Seeker' s are the Warrior/Authoritative branch of Chantry Power according to DA Encyclopedia. Unless you think Divine Justina herself was on the frontlines with Sword and Shield I dont know how Templars or Seekers wouldn't be involved in Exalted Marches in any significant way.

You got to hung up on that world. Leading in a more general sense, not direct.
The Chantry gives a goal, an objective. Individual kings and generals lead the armies and the Chantry has no control voer them and what they do.
Of course, there would be templars in such armies, because there would probably be mages and they'd need escorts/guards.

Im not suggesting that I know exactly how many forces the Templars actually have, you and Lord Aesir are. CHECK THAT because you guys don't know, only Bioware does.

Secondly, If any one organization has the Finances to maintain an army, It's the Chantry, and they have organized and lead 7 Exalted Marches' s thus shown the ability to successfully wage war. King' s and Queen' s dont take order' s from people who can't present a challenge their own army or status to their rule, remember that. The Lore clearly define' s the Chantry has a militant Warrior branch, Secret Agents, and the ability to wage war on anyone they deem a threat.

Lastly, There is a pic in the DA Encyclopedia  of an army of people in Templar Armor with spears in hand under it's description of the Exalted Marches' s. Unfortunately I can't link it because I have the Kindle Fire version of the book. But it's a good read you should buy it

http://dragonage.wik...i/Templar_Order

Modifié par FreshIstay, 26 septembre 2013 - 05:20 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

ianvillan wrote...

No matter the number of Templar is it possible to agree that the Templars are a military arm of the Chantry.

If the Templars are a military arm of the Chantry then sending them into a foreign nation to make sure your missionaries are able to do what they want must be an act of war.

So let me get this straight..If the Catholic Church were to send soem bodyguards along with some of their missionaries in Keynia, Knogo or wherever - that would be an act of war, and nuking Rome would be compeltely justified?

[maliluka]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

No matter the number of Templar is it possible to agree that the Templars are a military arm of the Chantry.

If the Templars are a military arm of the Chantry then sending them into a foreign nation to make sure your missionaries are able to do what they want must be an act of war.

So let me get this straight..If the Catholic Church were to send soem bodyguards along with some of their missionaries in Keynia, Knogo or wherever - that would be an act of war, and nuking Rome would be compeltely justified?

You cant compare a Templar with a bodyguard.

[cjones91]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

No matter the number of Templar is it possible to agree that the Templars are a military arm of the Chantry.

If the Templars are a military arm of the Chantry then sending them into a foreign nation to make sure your missionaries are able to do what they want must be an act of war.

So let me get this straight..If the Catholic Church were to send soem bodyguards along with some of their missionaries in Keynia, Knogo or wherever - that would be an act of war, and nuking Rome would be compeltely justified?

Only if they attempt to slowly take control of the culture and land.Nuking would be a extreme response but forcing people by gunpoint to leave is perfectly acceptable if they are in your country to spy on or to subvert the goverment.

[Heimdall]

FreshIstay wrote...
 NICE TRY, you were the one suggesting I said Templars led Exalted Marches.

. You have constantly stated that the Chantry leading the marches means the Templars, as the military branch, must have been at the forefront.  If not, why are you so insistent that this line means the Templars were so involved?

There is a pic in the DA Encyclopedia  of an army of people in Templar Armor under it's description of the Exalted Marches' s. Unfortunately I can't link it because I have the Kindle Fire version of the book. But it's a good read you should buy it:D

I have The World of Thedas, I'm just smart enough not to base an argument off concept art.<_<  Proof please.  Even if Templars fought, as I have said they might have, it was not as an army.

The amusing part is *you* are assuming that the Chantry is somehow light on Templar bodies and have in *your head* already arrived at the exact amount of manpower of The Templars. This imaginary number you've dreamed up apparently isnt enough for a standing army. 

The Chantry LEADS Exalted Marches. The Templars and Seeker' s are the Warrior/Authoritative branch of Chantry Power according to DA Encyclopedia. Unless you think Divine Justina herself was on the frontlines with Sword and Shield I dont know how Templars or Seekers wouldn't be involved in Exalted Marches in any significant way.

I use logical deduction to come to a conclusion.  Do you have the faintest idea how difficult andp expensive it is to maintain a standing army?  Do you think they have one waiting in the wings for centuries between marches?  No, because the only forces they have are tied up in duties that scatter their numbers to the winds and cannot be abandoned.  That's what the information we have tells us.  If you want to prove this is not the case, you actually have to prove it!

And the word LEAD you're so hung up on can mean many things in this concept.  It does not necessarily imply the Chantry was actually giving orders beyond the initial call to action.  Do you think the Pope was giving orders to the kings in the Crusades?  If you want to convince anyone, you need evidence.  You clearly have none if concept art is all you can dredge up.  Our exchange is done.

[Evandro_Junior]

I think the elves declared war because they were losing people to the religion of andraste. I do not believe that some missionaries were so dangerous.

[Lotion Soronarr]

FreshIstay wrote...
Im not suggesting that I know exactly how many forces the Templars actually have, you and Lord Aesir are. CHECK THAT because you guys don't know, only Bioware does.

Secondly, If any one organization has the Finances to maintain an army, It's the Chantry, and they have organized and lead 7 Exalted Marches' s thus shown the ability to successfully wage war. King' s and Queen' s dont take order' s from people who can't present a challenge their own army or status to their rule, remember that. The Lore clearly define' s the Chantry has a militant Warrior branch, Secret Agents, and the ability to wage war on anyone they deem a threat.

*FACEPALM*

It's called "resonable deduction". Look it up.
Just how many templars do you see in games? Just how many templars do they need?
Templars guard mage circels and the Chantries...there can't be that many of them, given the time period and population distribution.

Secondly, even the Cahtolic church at the hieght of his power didn't have a standign army. A standing army is so expensive that practicly no one had them during the middle ages. They would create one ad-hoc and would have to raise taxes. It was very draining on an entire country.

And kings and queens do respect people with clout. The Church didn't have any army, yet (some) kings answered when it called for the Crusades.  You don't need miltiary power for kings to fear you.

[cjones91]

Evandro_Junior wrote...

I think the elves declared war because they were losing people to the religion of andraste. I do not believe that some missionaries were so dangerous.

Maybe,but when those missionaries are kicked out and they later return with armed soilders then they are looking for a fight.

[Lotion Soronarr]

maliluka wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
So let me get this straight..If the Catholic Church were to send soem bodyguards along with some of their missionaries in Keynia, Knogo or wherever - that would be an act of war, and nuking Rome would be compeltely justified?

You cant compare a Templar with a bodyguard.

I can. A templar is not a member of a foreign government, but a religious organization.
Their purpose is to protect missionaries.
Given the Dealish hostility, is it so hard to immagine that many elves would hate or attack missionary, with or without government consent? The tensions could have very well had NOTHING to do with the elven government/nobiltiy of that time, but something that simply escalated because elven thugs and/or racists/supremacists/zealots kept attacking missioanries.

[Azaron Nightblade]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And kings and queens do respect people with clout. The Church didn't have any army, yet (some) kings answered when it called for the Crusades.  You don't need miltiary power for kings to fear you.

"Support us or be excommunicated and burn in hell!" made a pretty convincing arguement back in those days.
I think the Exalted Marches are also partly made up of different factions called to arms to defend the faith.
However, I think there are many more Templars than you see in game (engine/NPC limitations and all) - I'm not sure if you've watched Dawn of the Seeker, but there are a lot of Templars and Seekers there - and I suspect Val Royeaux to have a small army of them stationed in the city.

[Lotion Soronarr]

cjones91 wrote...
Only if they attempt to slowly take control of the culture and land.Nuking would be a extreme response but forcing people by gunpoint to leave is perfectly acceptable if they are in your country to spy on or to subvert the goverment.

By talking.
You're so afraid of missionaries you want to wage war on a foregin country that doesn't actually have anything to do with the missionaries you're so afraid off?

by that logic, if there was a faction of elves in the Dales (no matter how small) that was deemed hostile or dangerous (even idelogicly) to Chatry/Orlais, then the destruction of Dales would be perfectly justified!

[Heimdall]

LobselVith8 wrote...
If the Chantry invaded the Dales with templars, then the elves didn't start the war. And are you seriously condemning the elves because they wouldn't convert to the Chantry? Refusing to capitulate to the Chantry doesn't make the elves bad guys. The elves aren't villains for their desire to keep their own culture and follow their religion. 

If you refuse to read my posts, I'll say it one final time.  The Templars clearly did not enter the Dales as an invasion force to kill elves, they don't have the forces.  The elves could have addressed this in other ways.  They could have tried diplomacy.  Instead they attacked an Orlesian town and went on a tear through the countryside to Val Royeaux.  It them who declared war on Orlais, regardless of the Chantry's actions.

And I can't believe I have to explain this, but allowing someone to preach =\\= converting.  It's not capitulating, it's called religious tolerance, but rulers of the Dales evidently couldn't stand the idea of even the option of the human religion in their lands.

The Dalish entry reads that templars entered after the elves kicked out the missionaries; the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves didn't convert. I'm not seeing where the invading templars were mere escorts, especially when they are soldiers. How do you think templars would react to seeing free mages in the Dales, particularly when they believe they have dominion over mages by divine right? Why do you try to downplay the fact that soldiers were sent to trespass into the territory of a foreign nation? 

I'm not downplaying it, I'm saying that the Templars don't have the spare manpower to be any threat to the Dales and the Elves' overreacted stupidly and called down the wrath of the Orlesian Empire on themselves.  I refuse the notion that the Chantry is responsible for the Elves' xenophobic hatred.

[Hellion Rex]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And kings and queens do respect people with clout. The Church didn't have any army, yet (some) kings answered when it called for the Crusades.  You don't need miltiary power for kings to fear you.

"Support us or be excommunicated and burn in hell!" made a pretty convincing arguement back in those days.
I think the Exalted Marches are also partly made up of different factions called to arms to defend the faith.
However, I think there are many more Templars than you see in game (engine/NPC limitations and all) - I'm not sure if you've watched Dawn of the Seeker, but there are a lot of Templars and Seekers there - and I suspect Val Royeaux to have a small army of them stationed in the city.

It would make sense, especially to protect the Divine.

[Heimdall]

eluvianix wrote...

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And kings and queens do respect people with clout. The Church didn't have any army, yet (some) kings answered when it called for the Crusades.  You don't need miltiary power for kings to fear you.

"Support us or be excommunicated and burn in hell!" made a pretty convincing arguement back in those days.
I think the Exalted Marches are also partly made up of different factions called to arms to defend the faith.
However, I think there are many more Templars than you see in game (engine/NPC limitations and all) - I'm not sure if you've watched Dawn of the Seeker, but there are a lot of Templars and Seekers there - and I suspect Val Royeaux to have a small army of them stationed in the city.

It would make sense, especially to protect the Divine.

Actually there's a Circle of Magi in Val Royeaux, so it makes sense it would have sizable garrison.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 26 septembre 2013 - 07:09 .

[maliluka]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

maliluka wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
So let me get this straight..If the Catholic Church were to send soem bodyguards along with some of their missionaries in Keynia, Knogo or wherever - that would be an act of war, and nuking Rome would be compeltely justified?

You cant compare a Templar with a bodyguard.

I can. A templar is not a member of a foreign government, but a religious organization.
Their purpose is to protect missionaries.
Given the Dealish hostility, is it so hard to immagine that many elves would hate or attack missionary, with or without government consent? The tensions could have very well had NOTHING to do with the elven government/nobiltiy of that time, but something that simply escalated because elven thugs and/or racists/supremacists/zealots kept attacking missioanries.

The Templar order is the Military order of the Chantry, I would think that would put them a little bit above a " bodyguard" status. Just because we always see them so called "watching" the mages that is not all they do

Modifié par maliluka, 26 septembre 2013 - 07:12 .

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Aesir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And kings and queens do respect people with clout. The Church didn't have any army, yet (some) kings answered when it called for the Crusades.  You don't need miltiary power for kings to fear you.

"Support us or be excommunicated and burn in hell!" made a pretty convincing arguement back in those days.
I think the Exalted Marches are also partly made up of different factions called to arms to defend the faith.
However, I think there are many more Templars than you see in game (engine/NPC limitations and all) - I'm not sure if you've watched Dawn of the Seeker, but there are a lot of Templars and Seekers there - and I suspect Val Royeaux to have a small army of them stationed in the city.

It would make sense, especially to protect the Divine.

Actually there's a Circle of Magi in Val Royeaux, so it makes sense it would have sizable garrison.

I concur, therefore the Templar's duties would be twofold.

[Heimdall]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

"Support us or be excommunicated and burn in hell!" made a pretty convincing arguement back in those days.

Actually, the prospect of plunder and earning favor with the religious Authorities that legitimized their rule had more to do with it most of the time.

[Heimdall]

maliluka wrote...

The Templar order is the Military order of the Chantry, I would think that would put them a little bit above a " bodyguard" status.

How so?  Protecting members of the clergy is an important duties the Templars perform.