1256 réponses à ce sujet

[Evandro_Junior]

cjones91 wrote...

Evandro_Junior wrote...

I think the elves declared war because they were losing people to the religion of andraste. I do not believe that some missionaries were so dangerous.

Maybe,but when those missionaries are kicked out and they later return with armed soilders then they are looking for a fight.

good point.
But think: If people are receptive to new religion and the government forbids the free will, MAYBE is justifiable.
but this is all my speculation.

Ps: sorry if my english is bad

[cjones91]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Only if they attempt to slowly take control of the culture and land.Nuking would be a extreme response but forcing people by gunpoint to leave is perfectly acceptable if they are in your country to spy on or to subvert the goverment.

By talking.
You're so afraid of missionaries you want to wage war on a foregin country that doesn't actually have anything to do with the missionaries you're so afraid off?

by that logic, if there was a faction of elves in the Dales (no matter how small) that was deemed hostile or dangerous (even idelogicly) to Chatry/Orlais, then the destruction of Dales would be perfectly justified!

They were encroaching on sovereign lands after being kicked the first time with a warning.

[Heimdall]

cjones91 wrote...

They were encroaching on sovereign lands after being kicked the first time with a warning.

And a handful of glorified bodyguards justify attacking a nation that didn't send them?

[cjones91]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

They were encroaching on sovereign lands after being kicked the first time with a warning.

And a handful of glorified bodyguards justify attacking a nation that didn't send them?

Oh please....the missionaries were warned not to return to the Dales and they went back with a squad of templars instead.If someone tried to cross a border after being told to leave the first time then the consequences are on them.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If you believe that Orlais is responsible for provoking the elves into raiding Red Crossing, taking Montismmard and sacking Val Royeaux, then the elves should be responsible for provoking the Orlesians into conquering the Dales.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 26 septembre 2013 - 07:44 .

[cjones91]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

If you believe that Orlais is responsible for provoking the elves into raiding Red Crossing, taking Montismmard and sacking Val Royeaux. Then the elves are responsible for provoking the Orlesians into conquering the Dales.

What kind of logic is that?Are you really trying to claim that a nation encroaching on another nation's borders is the same as provoking the invaders into conquering the latter?I know from your posts that you defend the Chantry and Orlais from any wrong doing but come on....you must have noticed the faulty logic in your comparison.

[Mistic]

I see that people are talking a lot about the missionaries and the thing with the templar/bodyguards/whatever, but the codex said that there were already problems in the borders and rumours about the elves practicing human sacrifices. The thing with the missionaries was just the spark that ignited the war, nothing more.

Lord Aesir wrote...And I can't believe I have to explain this, but allowing someone to preach == converting. It's not capitulating, it's called religious tolerance, but rulers of the Dales evidently couldn't stand the idea of even the option of the human religion in their lands

You talk as if other rulers in Thedas allow religious tolerance. No, they don't. So far, the only organization we've seen that allows religious tolerance is the Grey Wardens.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I still don't see any reason to believe the Chantry sent templars to the Dales until after the war started but even if they did, the sheer amount of violence, destruction and loss of lives and of territory is hardly proportional to a bunch of priests showing up with bodyguards. If the elves have a right to react with whatever force they deemed necessary to stop that then Orlais should have the same right to stop the elves rampaging through their country. Losing a major city and having another sacked is much worse than unwanted missionaries hanging out and preacing inside your lands.


I also don't believe Orlais is immune from any wrong doing because the fact is I don't think either the reaction of the Dales or the Chantry was justiifed. A lot of pro elf posters seem to imagine this to be a fight between good and evil and since the elves were the victims, they must be the good guys. Except maybe it was a war with no real good guys, and in the end one side won. I that's often how wars work more often than not.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 26 septembre 2013 - 08:05 .

[LobselVith8]

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the Chantry invaded the Dales with templars, then the elves didn't start the war. And are you seriously condemning the elves because they wouldn't convert to the Chantry? Refusing to capitulate to the Chantry doesn't make the elves bad guys. The elves aren't villains for their desire to keep their own culture and follow their religion. 

If you refuse to read my posts, I'll say it one final time.  The Templars clearly did not enter the Dales as an invasion force to kill elves, they don't have the forces.  The elves could have addressed this in other ways.  They could have tried diplomacy.  Instead they attacked an Orlesian town and went on a tear through the countryside to Val Royeaux.  It them who declared war on Orlais, regardless of the Chantry's actions.

You have no evidence to claim that your speculation is fact. What we know is that the Dalish claim templars invaded the Dales after the elves kicked out the Chantry's missionaries; a likely attempt to force conversion at the end of the sword. And if the templars were stationed out of Red Crossing, then it explains why the elves attacked.

Lord Aesir wrote...

And I can't believe I have to explain this, but allowing someone to preach == converting.  It's not capitulating, it's called religious tolerance, but rulers of the Dales evidently couldn't stand the idea of even the option of the human religion in their lands.

You realize the Chantry of Andraste condemns people of other faiths as heathens, and outlawed the elven religion. And sending soldiers into foreign territory - who think they have dominion over mages by divine right - is going to be an issue in a kingdom where mages aren't enslaved by the Chantry.

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish entry reads that templars entered after the elves kicked out the missionaries; the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves didn't convert. I'm not seeing where the invading templars were mere escorts, especially when they are soldiers. How do you think templars would react to seeing free mages in the Dales, particularly when they believe they have dominion over mages by divine right? Why do you try to downplay the fact that soldiers were sent to trespass into the territory of a foreign nation?

I'm not downplaying it, I'm saying that the Templars don't have the spare manpower to be any threat to the Dales and the Elves' overreacted stupidly and called down the wrath of the Orlesian Empire on themselves.  I refuse the notion that the Chantry is responsible for the Elves' xenophobic hatred.

You don't know that the Order of Templars didn't have the numbers; you're speculating, and condemning the elves for keeping out an expansionist empire that had invaded it's neighbors and forcibly converted the people to Drakon's Cult turned national religion.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 26 septembre 2013 - 08:14 .

[Mistic]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I still don't see any reason to believe the Chantry sent templars to the Dales until after the war started but even if they did, the sheer amount of violence, destruction and loss of lives and of territory is hardly proportional to a bunch of priests showing up with bodyguards. If the elves have a right to react with whatever force they deemed necessary to stop that then Orlais should have the same right to stop the elves rampaging through their country. Losing a major city and having another sacked is much worse than unwanted missionaries hanging out and preacing inside your lands.


I also don't believe Orlais is immune from any wrong doing because the fact is I don't think either the reaction of the Dales or the Chantry was justiifed. A lot of pro elf posters seem to imagine this to be a fight between good and evil and since the elves were the victims, they must be the good guys. Except maybe it was a war with no real good guys, and in the end one side won. I that's often how wars work more often than not.

I always supposed that there were territorial issues with Orlais before that. Not to talk about Orlesians hating the Dalish because the elves didn't help the city of Montsimmard during the Blight (the irony is that Orlais would be accused of doing the same in future Blights), so you could say there was already bad blood between them. I think the thing with the missionaries was a convenient excuse for two powerful bordering nations to wage war against each other. As if similar things hadn't happened in real life.

So, yeah, I agree with you. We may feel bad for the Dalish because they lost, but had they won, we would feel bad for Orlais. Both were powerful countries, both were intolerant with other religions, both used the racial card against the other, and both committed atrocities. The difference was that Orlais had more friends, while the elves were alone.

[ianvillan]

Lord Aesir wrote...

maliluka wrote...

The Templar order is the Military order of the Chantry, I would think that would put them a little bit above a " bodyguard" status.

How so?  Protecting members of the clergy is an important duties the Templars perform.

Look at DA2 when the Templars went into the Dalish camp looking for the elf dreamer you sent there, the Templars were willing and able to use force to get him back.

Now imagine that the Templars were order to make sure that the missionaries were able to travel freely in the Dales and spread there message, do you think that if any elven civilians or soldiers tried to prevent them traveling deeper in to the Dales that the Templars would not use force to make sure the missionaries could.

[EmperorSahlertz]

ianvillan wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

maliluka wrote...

The Templar order is the Military order of the Chantry, I would think that would put them a little bit above a " bodyguard" status.

How so?  Protecting members of the clergy is an important duties the Templars perform.

Look at DA2 when the Templars went into the Dalish camp looking for the elf dreamer you sent there, the Templars were willing and able to use force to get him back.

Now imagine that the Templars were order to make sure that the missionaries were able to travel freely in the Dales and spread there message, do you think that if any elven civilians or soldiers tried to prevent them traveling deeper in to the Dales that the Templars would not use force to make sure the missionaries could.

Difference being, that a Dalish Clan is practically a group of bandits squating and poaching on a sovereign nation's land, and harboring dangerous individual at the same time. The Dales was actually asovereign nation.
Add to that that the Dalish entry that claims the Templars invaded is worth less than a pair of ****stained underwear, and you are left with a very weak claim by some xenophobic Dalish with a chip on his shoulder.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

maliluka wrote...

The Templar order is the Military order of the Chantry, I would think that would put them a little bit above a " bodyguard" status.

How so?  Protecting members of the clergy is an important duties the Templars perform.

Look at DA2 when the Templars went into the Dalish camp looking for the elf dreamer you sent there, the Templars were willing and able to use force to get him back.

Now imagine that the Templars were order to make sure that the missionaries were able to travel freely in the Dales and spread there message, do you think that if any elven civilians or soldiers tried to prevent them traveling deeper in to the Dales that the Templars would not use force to make sure the missionaries could.

Difference being, that a Dalish Clan is practically a group of bandits squating and poaching on a sovereign nation's land, and harboring dangerous individual at the same time. The Dales was actually asovereign nation.
Add to that that the Dalish entry that claims the Templars invaded is worth less than a pair of ****stained underwear, and you are left with a very weak claim by some xenophobic Dalish with a chip on his shoulder.

The story of the Dales reminded me of the conflicts between the Native American Indian tribes and the early European settlers.US history states the natives were hostile but others claim the Europeans wanted their land took it by force.The comparison seems pretty appropiate since many people here in this thread think the Dalish were savages and caused their own demise just like how Americans don't know the real history of the country they claim is theirs.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Difference being, that a Dalish Clan is practically a group of bandits squating and poaching on a sovereign nation's land, and harboring dangerous individual at the same time.

The Dalish are nomads, and if their history account is accurate, then it's hardly their fault that they are now nomadic since the Andrastian nations sacked the Dales in the Exalted March.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Dales was actually asovereign nation.
Add to that that the Dalish entry that claims the Templars invaded is worth less than a pair of ****stained underwear, and you are left with a very weak claim by some xenophobic Dalish with a chip on his shoulder. 

I don't see what's 'weak' about the claim that the Chantry wanted to convert the elves (since that's precisely what they do to the elves who submit to human rule, to the point of outlawing the elven religion), or with the idea that templars would invade the Dales when the missionaries were kicked out of the elven kingdom.

And I don't see what's wrong with keeping out an imperialistic empire that wanted to conquer and convert; I'm sure the Exalted Marches that Drakon declared on his neighbors to create the Orlesian Empire spoke volumes as to the kind of society that their human neighbors were establishing, and it's one that can't accomodate elves who refuse to follow the religious beliefs of the Andrastian Chantry.

[Heimdall]

cjones91 wrote...
Oh please....the missionaries were warned not to return to the Dales and they went back with a squad of templars instead.If someone tried to cross a border after being told to leave the first time then the consequences are on them.

Except Orlais did not cross the border!  Why is this so hard for you people to get through your thick skulls?

I am not and never have been saying that the Chantry is blameless!  I'm saying that the elves had a choice.  They could have taken other paths to deal with the situation, send emissaries to the grand cathedral, even just rebuff the Templars.

Instead, they attacked a sovereign nation, invaded its territory and slaughtered its citizens.  All without provocation, because, surprise!  THE CHANTRY IS NOT ORLAIS!

"Well," You say, "They can't be expected just let this slide because the Chantry hides behind Orlais".  Oh yes they can!  Because in invading Orlais they committed the same act of war you and others claim the Chantry committed by sending Templars into the Dales.  Just because the country happens to be in the way, does not excuse the sacking of towns and slaughter of Orlesians that they perpetrated.  Or would would it be alright for Germany to carve a bloody swathe through France if Spain attacked them?

So go on living with your poor victimized and blameless elves.  I am so very done with this thread.

[Heimdall]

cjones91 wrote...

The story of the Dales reminded me of the conflicts between the Native American Indian tribes and the early European settlers.US history states the natives were hostile but others claim the Europeans wanted their land took it by force.The comparison seems pretty appropiate since many people here in this thread think the Dalish were savages and caused their own demise just like how Americans don't know the real history of the country they claim is theirs.

My last post here:

Good lord no!  

We don't think the Dalish were savages.  We have irrefutable proof of the Dalish attitude towards humans from the games.  They hated them.  They saw them as a blight on elven kind.  They claimed the Chantry invaded them, whether or not that is true is largely irrelevant because they immediately decided to invade a sovereign nation that had committed no act of war towards them and practically invited them to send their armies to destroy them.

And btw, the view that the native Americans were brutal savages has been whitewashed out of US academia for decades, so stop making entirely inappropriate comparisons.

[Medhia Nox]

@Lord Aesir: I just want to chime in and say I agree that Americans generally have zero idea about the history of their country. As I am one, and those I've encountered are either 1) genuinely ignorant or 2) willfully ignorant because of apathy or "patriotism".

Not saying I think the Dalish are like the Native Americans - I'm just saying I don't think your comment about academia really refutes his comment about "Americans".

I find it interesting that you say it was "whitewashed" - does that mean you think it was unjustly removed and the indigenous people of the continent were actually savages?

===

To keep on topic.

I think the elves have been the engineers of their own demise since Arlathan.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 27 septembre 2013 - 01:14 .

[BlueMagitek]

Medhia, it's probably best to respect his wishes and let him leave the topic; there's certainly enough craziness without bringing irl histories and policies into it. ~_^

[Medhia Nox]

I wasn't being intentionally confrontational. I apologize.

[BlueMagitek]

I don't think there is need to, just throwing my 2 cents in. ~_^

[Heimdall]

Medhia Nox wrote...
@Lord Aesir: I just want to chime in and say I agree that Americans generally have zero idea about the history of their country. As I am one, and those I've encountered are either 1) genuinely ignorant or 2) willfully ignorant because of apathy or "patriotism".
Not saying I think the Dalish are like the Native Americans - I'm just saying I don't think your comment about academia really refutes his comment about "Americans".

I find it interesting that you say it was "whitewashed" - does that mean you think it was unjustly removed and the indigenous people on the continent were actually savages?

Since it's not about elves or the Chantry, I'll answer.

My experience is that no grade school classroom would promote such a view these days.  I am an American myself, and I think this is not something you'd need a particular interest in history to get.  My experience is that native Americans are portrayed as peace pipe smoking victims 99% of the time.  Of course, it's quite possible I just went to exceedingly liberal schools.

I'm not bothered by that in itself, I know there's an extensive list of atrocities committed against the indigenous people of the continent and they have been unjustly maligned for centuries.  I'm bothered that in doing so they intentionally blot out many of the awful things some Native American groups actually did.  Yes, some did scalp their victims.  Yes, some did raid white settlements.  That's what I mean by "whitewashing". Did you know that the board of education will reject a text book if it contains an illustration of a Native American taking a scalp?  All in the name of political correctness.

And now I'm done

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 27 septembre 2013 - 01:47 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Lord Aesir wrote..

you have constantly stated that the Chantry leading the marches means the Templars, as the military branch, must have been at the forefront.  If not, why are you so insistent that this line means the Templars were so involved?

They were, they are the Military branch, When the President wages war he calls the Military. All branches of it.

I use logical deduction to come to a conclusion. Do you have the faintest idea how difficult andp expensive it is to maintain a standing army?  Do you think they have one waiting in the wings for centuries between marches?  No, because the only forces they have are tied up in duties that scatter their numbers to the winds and cannot be abandoned.  That's what the information we have tells us.  If you want to prove this is not the case, you actually have to prove it!

Logical lol. Bro, you literally think you KNOW that the Chantry doesn't have enough money to wage a war and employ enough Templars for an army. All the evidence suggests they do, 7 wars and almost an 8th at the end of DA2, and You think the Templars have little to nothing to do with any of them, WHEN THEY ARE DESCRIBED AS THE MILITARY BRANCH OF THE CHANTRY. THE WIKI EVEN SAYS THEY CAN STAND ALONE, WHY DO YOU THINK THEY SPLIT FROM THE CHANTRY!  THEY ARE GOING TO FIGHT A WAR BY THEMSELVES!!!!!!!!!.... So I spit on your "logic".

"
The Templar Order is a military order of the ] that, amongst their duties, hunts apostatesand watches over the mages from the Circle of Magi. While they are officially deemed a force of defenders by the Chantry, established to protect the communities of the faithful from magical threats, they are in fact an army unto themselves; well-equipped, highly disciplined and devoted to the destruction of non-believers in the name of the Maker."

http://dragonage.wik...i/Templar_Order

Modifié par FreshIstay, 27 septembre 2013 - 01:51 .

[Heimdall]

^Nice job failing to refute a single one of my points:whistle:

You still haven't proven the Chantry fielded a single army in those seven wars you keep going on about.  Do you really think the only reason they could have a militant branch was if they needed them for open warfare?

Also, aside that nothing in that quote refutes my points, never use the wiki as a reliable source of information.  If it's not Bioware, it's not evidence.

Damn I'm bad at quitting   Just when I think I'm out, these toxic forums drag me back in.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 27 septembre 2013 - 01:56 .

[BlueMagitek]

LA, just leave it, such a rude response isn't worthy of comment.

[AlexanderCousland]

Lord Aesir wrote...

^Nice job failing to refute a single one of my points:whistle:

You still haven't proven the Chantry fielded a single army in those seven wars you keep going on about.

Damn I'm bad at quitting 

The Templars are an Army:happy:
They Were the Chantry' s Military Branch who fought in the Exalted Marches, also with the first Inquisition.
Yep.

If you don't like the Wiki, you already said the official DA Encyclopedia pictures dont work because it's concept art BUT Its not really a concept if it's portraying something that already happend. In this case the were Portraying Templars in full plate with spears in their hands on the very same page that describes Exalted Marches, with a description Exalted March under the picture.

Points refuted.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 27 septembre 2013 - 02:03 .