1256 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The protagonist is choosing allies, making choices, and reacting to what's going on around him. Since the protagonist is getting involved in local events, I don't see any reason to mute the cultural values and views of a Dalish Inquisitor who is visiting Orlais or Tevinter. We're supposed to be playing as a living person, not an automatron. 

Sure. But ignorring the false delimma, if we're going to play as a Dalish, shouldn't we want views compatible with the in-universe depiction of Dalish viewpoints and perspectives?

There is no false dilemma in a Dalish main character reacting to Tevinter or Orlais. If slaves are rebelling in Tevinter, perhaps a Dalish Inquisitor would be motivated to help them, since his ancestors were enslaved by the Imperium, and the progenitor of the People died fighting against Tevinter. Or elves trying to rebel in the Dales could allow the elven protagonist to choose between Celene, Gaspard, or the elves.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Last I checked, there weren't any credible Dalish proponents of the tribes unifying, invading Orlais, and establishing a new Dalish state in the historic Dales. That's always been more of a fanwank fantasy: even the more vehement/revaunchist Dalish characters we've met have had little interest in abandoning nomadism. 

There's the implication that there might be an elven rebellion in the Dales, and the Dalish could be gathering in the Dales around this time as well. That's what the earlier conversation focused on. As for abandoning the nomadic life, the Dalish wander to avoid templars and humans who would try to harm them. Their goal is to have their own homeland, and we see how happy the Dalish Boon makes the respective Dalish characters.

[wolfhowwl]

eluvianix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

If a Dalish Inquisitor is stuck up over Arlathan when there's a literal split in the sky as the Fade is ripped apart and demons poor out, he has issues.

There's a war between mages and templars across Thedas, and a civil war in Orlais. Focusing solely on the tear in the Fade and ignoring the reality of what's going on around the protagonist? Glossing over a society that enslaved the ancient elves and threatened Thedas before the Qunari distracted them, and continues to practice slavery in modern day Thedas, would be rather boring.

...uh, if you ignore the whole 'war between mages and templars across Thedas' and 'civil war in Orlais' and 'literal split in the sky as the Fade is ripped apart and demons poor our', sure. Boring.

Focusing on reviving an ancient kingdom that no one, even its advocates, actually know much about and even fewer people actually want? Kind of missing where the action and drama is, even if we ignore the immorality of the ideas of implementation.

Immorality? What immorality is there in what he would like to see in this next game?

Lobsel openly advocates ethnic cleansing to establish a homeland for the elven race.

[Plaintiff]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Because slavery is a vast improvement?

Seeing as how the Chantry doesn't own anyone, I'm not sure that fits the definition of slavery.

If you're under someone's control, with no legal right to leave, that's being owned. Functionally, there's no difference between "legitimate" slavery and the mage situation.

Except that a mage can technically leave, as long as he's willing to wait for the entire goddamn Circle to vote on it. Which is like saying a slave can leave, as long as everyone else he's chained to agrees and comes with him.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 27 septembre 2013 - 03:22 .

[wolfhowwl]

People in prison, mental institutions, or quarantined are not slaves. Try again.

[Plaintiff]

wolfhowwl wrote...

People in prison, mental institutions, or quarantined are not slaves. Try again.

By whose definition? Yours?

[LobselVith8]

wolfhowwl wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Immorality? What immorality is there in what he would like to see in this next game? 

Lobsel openly advocates ethnic cleansing to establish a homeland for the elven race.  

I advocate the elves having a homeland where men, women, and children can't be butchered in purges, and where women being abducted in broad daylight or children being murdered isn't ignored simply because Andrastians see elves as less than people.

[Plaintiff]

wolfhowwl wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

If a Dalish Inquisitor is stuck up over Arlathan when there's a literal split in the sky as the Fade is ripped apart and demons poor out, he has issues.

There's a war between mages and templars across Thedas, and a civil war in Orlais. Focusing solely on the tear in the Fade and ignoring the reality of what's going on around the protagonist? Glossing over a society that enslaved the ancient elves and threatened Thedas before the Qunari distracted them, and continues to practice slavery in modern day Thedas, would be rather boring.

...uh, if you ignore the whole 'war between mages and templars across Thedas' and 'civil war in Orlais' and 'literal split in the sky as the Fade is ripped apart and demons poor our', sure. Boring.

Focusing on reviving an ancient kingdom that no one, even its advocates, actually know much about and even fewer people actually want? Kind of missing where the action and drama is, even if we ignore the immorality of the ideas of implementation.

Immorality? What immorality is there in what he would like to see in this next game?

Lobsel openly advocates ethnic cleansing to establish a homeland for the elven race.

Which is totally worse than what the humans are doing to the elves right now. Derp.

[wolfhowwl]

So that would excuse it?

Plaintiff wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

People in prison, mental institutions, or quarantined are not slaves. Try again.

By whose definition? Yours?

No. Reality's.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 27 septembre 2013 - 03:26 .

[Plaintiff]

wolfhowwl wrote...
So that would excuse it?

Fight fire with fire. 

wolfhowwl wrote...
No. Reality's.

Who's "Reality"?

[Dean_the_Young]

eluvianix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

If a Dalish Inquisitor is stuck up over Arlathan when there's a literal split in the sky as the Fade is ripped apart and demons poor out, he has issues.

There's a war between mages and templars across Thedas, and a civil war in Orlais. Focusing solely on the tear in the Fade and ignoring the reality of what's going on around the protagonist? Glossing over a society that enslaved the ancient elves and threatened Thedas before the Qunari distracted them, and continues to practice slavery in modern day Thedas, would be rather boring.

...uh, if you ignore the whole 'war between mages and templars across Thedas' and 'civil war in Orlais' and 'literal split in the sky as the Fade is ripped apart and demons poor our', sure. Boring.

Focusing on reviving an ancient kingdom that no one, even its advocates, actually know much about and even fewer people actually want? Kind of missing where the action and drama is, even if we ignore the immorality of the ideas of implementation.

Immorality? What immorality is there in what he would like to see in this next game?

Fanwank fantasy? That is extremely rude. What he wants in
the game has just as much a place on this thread as any of your ideas
do.

Since you seem to be unaware, Lobel has a history and standing desire to create an Dalish state in the former Dales in Orlais, currently lived upon by Humans who naturally have little interest in that. Lobel has repeatedly defended the conquest and forcible removal (and death of resisters) of the current inhabitants, who have no role or responsibility with the fall of the Dales and who have lived the lands for centuries longer than the Dalish ever had them, and justified these on moral grounds.

Perhaps you are a better person than I, but if you consider condoning ethnic cleansing fantasies and eagerly advocating their implementation on the basis of historical record as something more moral than a fanwank fantasy... well, I doubt it.

[Hellion Rex]

wolfhowwl wrote...

So that would excuse it?

Plaintiff wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

People in prison, mental institutions, or quarantined are not slaves. Try again.

By whose definition? Yours?

No. Reality's.

Not in mine. Or Plaintiff's, if I am reading him (or her) right.

[Hellion Rex]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

If a Dalish Inquisitor is stuck up over Arlathan when there's a literal split in the sky as the Fade is ripped apart and demons poor out, he has issues.

There's a war between mages and templars across Thedas, and a civil war in Orlais. Focusing solely on the tear in the Fade and ignoring the reality of what's going on around the protagonist? Glossing over a society that enslaved the ancient elves and threatened Thedas before the Qunari distracted them, and continues to practice slavery in modern day Thedas, would be rather boring.

...uh, if you ignore the whole 'war between mages and templars across Thedas' and 'civil war in Orlais' and 'literal split in the sky as the Fade is ripped apart and demons poor our', sure. Boring.

Focusing on reviving an ancient kingdom that no one, even its advocates, actually know much about and even fewer people actually want? Kind of missing where the action and drama is, even if we ignore the immorality of the ideas of implementation.

Immorality? What immorality is there in what he would like to see in this next game?

Fanwank fantasy? That is extremely rude. What he wants in
the game has just as much a place on this thread as any of your ideas
do.

Since you seem to be unaware, Lobel has a history and standing desire to create an Dalish state in the former Dales in Orlais, currently lived upon by Humans who naturally have little interest in that. Lobel has repeatedly defended the conquest and forcible removal (and death of resisters) of the current inhabitants, who have no role or responsibility with the fall of the Dales and who have lived the lands for centuries longer than the Dalish ever had them, and justified these on moral grounds.

Perhaps you are a better person than I, but if you consider condoning ethnic cleansing fantasies and eagerly advocating their implementation on the basis of historical record as something more moral than a fanwank fantasy... well, I doubt it.

I have been on this forum for 2 and a half years, I am fully aware of Lobsel's beliefs. But regardless of whether I agree or not, that does not give you the right to slam down what he (or she) would find interesting in the next game. Nor does it excuse the extreme rudeness in calling what Lobsel finds interesing "fanwank". 
If you are going to disagree with someone, do it with class. Don't throw petty insults like a child.

Modifié par eluvianix, 27 septembre 2013 - 03:33 .

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Immorality? What immorality is there in what he would like to see in this next game? 

Lobsel openly advocates ethnic cleansing to establish a homeland for the elven race.  

I advocate the elves having a homeland where men, women, and children can't be butchered in purges, and where women being abducted in broad daylight or children being murdered isn't ignored simply because Andrastians see elves as less than people.

You have also advocated doing so by conquering, killing, and expelling humans in purges of geographic areas with established human populations.

[wolfhowwl]

Plaintiff wrote...
Fight fire with fire. 

Just to be clear here, you support horrible crimes being committed against a civilian population?

[Hellion Rex]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Immorality? What immorality is there in what he would like to see in this next game? 

Lobsel openly advocates ethnic cleansing to establish a homeland for the elven race.  

I advocate the elves having a homeland where men, women, and children can't be butchered in purges, and where women being abducted in broad daylight or children being murdered isn't ignored simply because Andrastians see elves as less than people.

You have also advocated doing so by conquering, killing, and expelling humans in purges of geographic areas with established human populations.

In all fairness, whether it was justified or not, the Dalish underwent that same treatment during the Exalted Marches. 

[Plaintiff]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Immorality? What immorality is there in what he would like to see in this next game? 

Lobsel openly advocates ethnic cleansing to establish a homeland for the elven race.  

I advocate the elves having a homeland where men, women, and children can't be butchered in purges, and where women being abducted in broad daylight or children being murdered isn't ignored simply because Andrastians see elves as less than people.

You have also advocated doing so by conquering, killing, and expelling humans in purges of geographic areas with established human populations.

While you defend the humans who a) did that before and are doing it currently.

So what grounds do you criticize Lobselvith on?

[AresKeith]

eluvianix wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

So that would excuse it?

Plaintiff wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

People in prison, mental institutions, or quarantined are not slaves. Try again.

By whose definition? Yours?

No. Reality's.

Not in mine. Or Plaintiff's, if I am reading him (or her) right.

How are you reading it?

[Plaintiff]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Fight fire with fire. 

Just to be clear here, you support horrible crimes being committed against a civilian population?

So do you, as long as that civilian population has pointy ears.

Turnabout is fair play.

[Dean_the_Young]

eluvianix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

If a Dalish Inquisitor is stuck up over Arlathan when there's a literal split in the sky as the Fade is ripped apart and demons poor out, he has issues.

There's a war between mages and templars across Thedas, and a civil war in Orlais. Focusing solely on the tear in the Fade and ignoring the reality of what's going on around the protagonist? Glossing over a society that enslaved the ancient elves and threatened Thedas before the Qunari distracted them, and continues to practice slavery in modern day Thedas, would be rather boring.

...uh, if you ignore the whole 'war between mages and templars across Thedas' and 'civil war in Orlais' and 'literal split in the sky as the Fade is ripped apart and demons poor our', sure. Boring.

Focusing on reviving an ancient kingdom that no one, even its advocates, actually know much about and even fewer people actually want? Kind of missing where the action and drama is, even if we ignore the immorality of the ideas of implementation.

Immorality? What immorality is there in what he would like to see in this next game?

Fanwank fantasy? That is extremely rude. What he wants in
the game has just as much a place on this thread as any of your ideas
do.

Since you seem to be unaware, Lobel has a history and standing desire to create an Dalish state in the former Dales in Orlais, currently lived upon by Humans who naturally have little interest in that. Lobel has repeatedly defended the conquest and forcible removal (and death of resisters) of the current inhabitants, who have no role or responsibility with the fall of the Dales and who have lived the lands for centuries longer than the Dalish ever had them, and justified these on moral grounds.

Perhaps you are a better person than I, but if you consider condoning ethnic cleansing fantasies and eagerly advocating their implementation on the basis of historical record as something more moral than a fanwank fantasy... well, I doubt it.

I have been on this forum for 2 and a half years, I am fully aware of Lobsel's beliefs. But regardless of whether I agree or not, that does not give you the right to slam down what he (or she) would find interesting in the next game. Nor does it excuse the extreme rudeness in calling what Lobsel finds interesing "fanwank". 
If you are going to disagree with someone, do it with class. Don't throw petty insults like a child.

Actually, finding Lobsel's views both immature and morally abhorrent gives me every right to dismiss what he finds interesting and to state I don't think what he wants should be in the next game. The rules of the forum require me to express my views within a spectrum of decorum, but they do not prevent me from disagreeing with him openly.

[Hellion Rex]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

If a Dalish Inquisitor is stuck up over Arlathan when there's a literal split in the sky as the Fade is ripped apart and demons poor out, he has issues.

There's a war between mages and templars across Thedas, and a civil war in Orlais. Focusing solely on the tear in the Fade and ignoring the reality of what's going on around the protagonist? Glossing over a society that enslaved the ancient elves and threatened Thedas before the Qunari distracted them, and continues to practice slavery in modern day Thedas, would be rather boring.

...uh, if you ignore the whole 'war between mages and templars across Thedas' and 'civil war in Orlais' and 'literal split in the sky as the Fade is ripped apart and demons poor our', sure. Boring.

Focusing on reviving an ancient kingdom that no one, even its advocates, actually know much about and even fewer people actually want? Kind of missing where the action and drama is, even if we ignore the immorality of the ideas of implementation.

Immorality? What immorality is there in what he would like to see in this next game?

Fanwank fantasy? That is extremely rude. What he wants in
the game has just as much a place on this thread as any of your ideas
do.

Since you seem to be unaware, Lobel has a history and standing desire to create an Dalish state in the former Dales in Orlais, currently lived upon by Humans who naturally have little interest in that. Lobel has repeatedly defended the conquest and forcible removal (and death of resisters) of the current inhabitants, who have no role or responsibility with the fall of the Dales and who have lived the lands for centuries longer than the Dalish ever had them, and justified these on moral grounds.

Perhaps you are a better person than I, but if you consider condoning ethnic cleansing fantasies and eagerly advocating their implementation on the basis of historical record as something more moral than a fanwank fantasy... well, I doubt it.

I have been on this forum for 2 and a half years, I am fully aware of Lobsel's beliefs. But regardless of whether I agree or not, that does not give you the right to slam down what he (or she) would find interesting in the next game. Nor does it excuse the extreme rudeness in calling what Lobsel finds interesing "fanwank". 
If you are going to disagree with someone, do it with class. Don't throw petty insults like a child.

Actually, finding Lobsel's views both immature and morally abhorrent gives me every right to dismiss what he finds interesting and to state I don't think what he wants should be in the next game. The rules of the forum require me to express my views within a spectrum of decorum, but they do not prevent me from disagreeing with him openly.

That is perfectly fine. Express your dislike. But keep the "fanwank" crap out of thread please. 

[LobselVith8]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dealing with (and reacting to) local events means the protagonist isn't focusing exclusively on the veil tears. I certainly doubt the pro-Chantry and pro-templar posters in this thread would advocate focusing solely on the veil tears, and nothing else, when it comes to their own factions.

And since no one is suggesting the game should, why are you bringing it up?

Actually, it was said that the Inquisitor should focus on the veil tears instead of reacting to what's going on in Thedas when I mentioned a Dalish Inquisitor reacting to entering Tevinter society.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You made a silly statement that a good number of exotic, dangerous, and potentially dramatic things that could easily provide a vast majority of the context and content of the game would be boring if they didn't include your pet topic. You were being silly, as you have a habit of being, and so were being made light of. Nothing more, nothing less.

I mentioned it would be boring if the protagonist focused only on the veil tear, and you went on a tangent because you disagreed with me without bothering to actually read what I wrote. Your failure to read what I wrote doesn't make me silly; it simply makes it clear that you're mudslinging instead of discussing the topic.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish culture is about holding into their cultural values and their religious practices, as well as their refusal to capitulate to human rule or the Chantry of Andraste. I don't see any reason to play as a Dalish elf and denigrate everything that makes them who they are. 

Who is denigrating? Your dalish state-building fetish aside, building a state isn't a cultural value or religious practice of the Dalish.

The Dalish have their own religion, their own cultural values, and a history with the Orlesian Empire and the Imperium. I was addressing a Dalish protagonist reacting to Orlais and Tevinter during his trek across Thedas.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You continue to advocate a variety of policies that not only strains feasibility and morality considerations, but one which the contemporary Dalish themselves have shown little interest in. Their cultural values and religious practices have heavily adopted nomadism, and there is no sign of any pan-Dalish movement, popular or driven by its leaders, to go and take back parts of Orlais. 

The Dalish are nomadic because Andrastians are hostile towards them and templars hunt them down.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's not a Dalish cultural value. That's you, and a small number of Dalish advoacates... and not even all the Dalish advocates believe that's a good idea. The game won't be boring if it doesn't include it. 

Having their own homeland again actually is a goal of the People.

And I clearly said the game would be boring if the protagonist only focused on the veil tears, and ignored what was going on around him.

[Hellion Rex]

Plaintiff wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Fight fire with fire. 

Just to be clear here, you support horrible crimes being committed against a civilian population?

So do you, as long as that civilian population has pointy ears.

Turnabout is fair play.

So true Plaintiff. It's only ok to murder all the elves, it is only a crime when it is the humans being attacked.

[LobselVith8]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I advocate the elves having a homeland where men, women, and children can't be butchered in purges, and where women being abducted in broad daylight or children being murdered isn't ignored simply because Andrastians see elves as less than people. 

You have also advocated doing so by conquering, killing, and expelling humans in purges of geographic areas with established human populations. 

By overthrowing the Orlesian occupation of the Dales to give the elves one single place in the entire continent where they can be safe from persecution and harassment, where the templars won't hunt them down, where acts of legal mass murder can't endanger men, women, and children, and where the People can legally practice their religion since it's outlawed in the Andrastian kingdoms.

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The protagonist is choosing allies, making choices, and reacting to what's going on around him. Since the protagonist is getting involved in local events, I don't see any reason to mute the cultural values and views of a Dalish Inquisitor who is visiting Orlais or Tevinter. We're supposed to be playing as a living person, not an automatron. 

Sure. But ignorring the false delimma, if we're going to play as a Dalish, shouldn't we want views compatible with the in-universe depiction of Dalish viewpoints and perspectives?

There is no false dilemma in a Dalish main character reacting to Tevinter or Orlais. If slaves are rebelling in Tevinter, perhaps a Dalish Inquisitor would be motivated to help them, since his ancestors were enslaved by the Imperium, and the progenitor of the People died fighting against Tevinter. Or elves trying to rebel in the Dales could allow the elven protagonist to choose between Celene, Gaspard, or the elves.

The false delimma was the Dalish Inquisitor doing what you wanted, or being an automton.

Technically the rest of what you provided is as well, since it's an arbitary selection of delimmas, but it's also irrelevant.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Last I checked, there weren't any credible Dalish proponents of the tribes unifying, invading Orlais, and establishing a new Dalish state in the historic Dales. That's always been more of a fanwank fantasy: even the more vehement/revaunchist Dalish characters we've met have had little interest in abandoning nomadism. 

There's the implication that there might be an elven rebellion in the Dales, and the Dalish could be gathering in the Dales around this time as well. That's what the earlier conversation focused on. As for abandoning the nomadic life, the Dalish wander to avoid templars and humans who would try to harm them. Their goal is to have their own homeland, and we see how happy the Dalish Boon makes the respective Dalish characters.

And those aren't mass movements of the Dalish. Or the elvish. Or anyone at all. A pan-Dalish invasion of the former Dales hasn't been a plot thread. You don't even know the context of the possible elven rebellion, let alone what it's goals are. You are twisting facts to suit a theory rather than basing a theory off of the facts.

Moreover, a stationary state doesn't fundamentally resolve the issues you raise that the Dalish want to solve- in many respects, it can make them worse. Dalish survival and ability to avoid conflict with templars and humans who would try to harm them has been enabled by nomadism. People who would do them hard, couldn't find them. Giving up nomadism to create a weak state, and with their numbers and power it would only be a weak state, can very easily be pointed as leading the Dalish back to the previous two great disasters of the People- the utter destruction of their states by those who would do them harm.

Statism has been the historic destruction of the elves.

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I advocate the elves having a homeland where men, women, and children can't be butchered in purges, and where women being abducted in broad daylight or children being murdered isn't ignored simply because Andrastians see elves as less than people. 

You have also advocated doing so by conquering, killing, and expelling humans in purges of geographic areas with established human populations. 

By overthrowing the Orlesian occupation of the Dales to give the elves one single place in the entire continent where they can be safe from persecution and harassment, where the templars won't hunt them down, where acts of legal mass murder can't endanger men, women, and children, and where the People can legally practice their religion since it's outlawed in the Andrastian kingdoms.

And in removing and ejecting the established ethnic population, you are conducting... ethnic cleansing.

Your reasons for doing so don't matter. Ethnic cleansing is a reflection of your actions, not your morals.