Aller au contenu

Photo

So it was the events in Asunder that set off the Mage-Templar War.


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
1256 réponses à ce sujet

#776
EmperorSahlertz

EmperorSahlertz
  • Members
  • 8 809 messages

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Your saying it's okay for elves to steal something, but not okay form humans to steal something.

Sounds like average double standard hypocracy to me.

I never said it was okay. I said it can't be known, and that the fact of it being stolen previously doesn't make the humans any less wrong.

So in addition to not knowing what 'hypocrisy' means, plenty of people in this thread apparently can't read.

Hypocrisy means a lot of things. Double standards are an aspect of it. And you have shown time and again, that you have many double standards.

Why don't you elaborate on these, I could use a good laugh.

Pretty much your entire Elf supremacist stance, is on big example of textbook double standards. Your mage supremacist stance, comes in close second. Oh wait, thats right, when you talk about it, it is equal rights for mages and elves. But lets be honest, thats not really what you try and advocate...

Plaintiff wrote...

And wether or not the Elves "stole" Thedas from anyone is inconsequential, just like it was when the humans "stole" Thedas from the Elves.
A wolfpack doesn't "steal" hunting territory from another wolfpack. It takes it. The Elves were too weak to defend themselves when Arlathan fell, and they were too weak to defend themselves when the Dales fell. All their claims to their lands evaporated with such spectacular displays of weakness. If you do not have the power to hold on to what is yours, it is no longer yours. The Elves lost. They really need to get over it.

So if I barge into your home, kill your family and pets, and cast you out into the street, it's safe to assume you'll concede to my right of conquest, and accept that you deserve to be homeless because you were 'weak', yes?

No. If we were living in anarchy, then yes. However, we do not.  Ignoring the fact that manslaughter and murder cannot be compared to conquest of territory, you seem of the sort who is incapable of comprehending that might, does not necessarily mean physical, so it seems pointless to try and explain the finer points of "might makes right" to you.. However, since I am a sucker for punishment, I might aswell try...
Might makes right, means that the most powerful are the one who sets the rules. That does not necessarily means physically powerful. It can also means economically, politically or in the case of nations militarily (or any combinations thereof, along with a slew of other forms).
Now in the case of your so well-thought out and eloquent example of you murdering my family and pets, and "conquering" my home. Yes. I would have to concede that I had been the weaker party of the two of us. I would have been too weak to defend my family, and as a result I would have lost everything. However, since the nation I live in is at least partially mightier than the otherwise all-mighty you, it would not be a conflcit contained between the two of us. You would have broken the law in the nation, and they would see fit to punish you for it. So in the end, while you had proven stronger than me, in my failure to defend my family, you would end up the weaker, becasue my "ally", the nation, would reinforce me. If you had been capable of fighting the power of the nation, then you would be at the top of the power pyramid in this case, and while many would probably find your actions morally repulsive, your undeniable power, would be what allowed you to do as you please.

#777
Hellion Rex

Hellion Rex
  • Members
  • 30 037 messages
Just to make my personal position known, I don't personally agree with "genocide". Either against the Dalish or the Chantry/Templars/Human/whoever. However, I do understand both Lobsel's motivations as well as Plaintiffs. Whether you agree that the Exalted march on the Dales was justified or not, the Dalish people were pretty much beaten terribly, and many lives were lost. I could see how an elven protagonist might be bitter.
I would be interested in seeing how an elven protagonist would use their power as Inquisitor to address this topic. Whether or not it is moral or justified, I don't care. It would make an interesting story.

#778
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 989 messages

If we were living in anarchy, then yes


That's not the definition of anarchy. That's just chaos. A lot of people confuse anarchy for general lawlessness and chaos. Anarchy's really just a world in which people have transcended a lot of base things, a world without the need for leaders -- not without order.

I mean, chaos in and of itself is anarchic, but it's not really anarchy in the strict sense of the word. The actual definition is, in fact, what I stated. Anarchy is idealistic, not cynical.

But that's neither here nor there.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 septembre 2013 - 09:36 .


#779
EmperorSahlertz

EmperorSahlertz
  • Members
  • 8 809 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If we were living in anarchy, then yes


That's not the definition of anarchy. That's just chaos. A lot of people confuse anarchy for general lawlessness and chaos. Anarchy's really just a world in which people have transcended a lot of base things, a world without the need for leaders -- not without order.

I mean, chaos in and of itself is anarchic, but it's not really anarchy in the strict sense of the word. The actual definition is, in fact, what I stated.

Anarchy literally means "No rulers" or "No rules", that is one of the definitions of chaos aswell. Chaos is a form anarchy. However there exist both utopian anarchy and dystopian anarchy.

#780
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 989 messages
I like to maintain a difference between the two, finding that to call "without rules" true anarchy does the term a disservice, because the actual translation is simply "without rulers". Chaos is anarchy only because there are no rulers to create a sense of order, but again... even then it doesn't fit in the true notion of the word IMO.

But again, neither here nor there. Back to Elves and Mages and battlebears and gorilla mounts.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 septembre 2013 - 09:51 .


#781
Heimdall

Heimdall
  • Members
  • 13 236 messages
Wow, it looks like this thread has spiraled even more off topic since I left it last night. How on earth hasn't this been locked?

#782
LobselVith8

LobselVith8
  • Members
  • 16 993 messages
 [quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, it was said that the Inquisitor should focus on the veil tears instead of reacting to what's going on in Thedas when I mentioned a Dalish Inquisitor reacting to entering Tevinter society.[/quote]

So we shouldn't make false delimmas like you were. Got it. Moving on. [/quote]

No, you don't get it. You were wrong about what I wrote, I pointed out why you were incorrect in your retort to me as a result, and you basically marginalized the entire line of thought I was addressing for some vague phrase that doesn't really mean anything since you didn't even properly read my sentence in the first place. These personal attacks aren't conducive to having a genuine discussion. 

All I'm saying is that I think a Dalish elf reacting to specific societies would be interesting from a cultural and historical perspective; it's no different than how a Dwarven Inquisitor might react to seeing Kal-Sharok, which many dwarves thought was lost because of the darkspawn incursion.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I mentioned it would be boring if the protagonist focused only on the veil tear, and you went on a tangent because you disagreed with me without bothering to actually read what I wrote. Your failure to read what I wrote doesn't make me silly; it simply makes it clear that you're mudslinging instead of discussing the topic.[/quote]

Oh, I read it- it was silly. Humerous, even. [/quote]

Based on some of your replies, I get the feeling you didn't really read what I wrote. I wouldn't have to correct so many of your mistakes if you had. I don't see why we can't have a sincere discussion about Dragon Age, even if we disagree.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish have their own religion, their own cultural values, and a history with the Orlesian Empire and the Imperium. I was addressing a Dalish protagonist reacting to Orlais and Tevinter during his trek across Thedas.[/quote]

Right. But statebuilding isn't a cultural or religious fixation of the Dalish. It's a fixation of yours.

So why should an in-game perspective, presumably based on the Dalish, focus on Dalish statebuilding?
[/quote]

Dalish cultural perspective can focus on many things: calling the Fade the 'Beyond', seeing spirits as mere spirits and not as the First Children of the Maker (i.e. Spirits and Demons), having experience with templars hunting down your clan, following the Creators, and other issues. A homeland for the elves is simply one issue.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish are nomadic because Andrastians are hostile towards them and templars hunt them down.[/quote]

And being nomadic helps them move away away from the dangers. Congratulations, you're starting to catch on.

Now, if the Dalish stop being Nomads and stop moving away from the Human who would do them harm (like, for example, proximity to a xenophobic culture that has little problem in shooting hapless and even innocent human commoners for the crime of proximity)...

The Humans and Dalish aren't at conflict just because of religion. Even if the chantry and templars fall, all the other reasons still apply, and will apply going forward. [/quote]

Templars hunt down the Dalish; the Sabrae clan mentions religious Andrastians were threatening them to convert. The Chantry plays a role in the hostilities between humans and elves, especially the "heathens".

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Having their own homeland again actually is a goal of the People. [/quote]

Having a homeland built on the corpses and expulsion of others in a hypocritical mockery of their own dearly-held victimhood, however, isn't. Especially when it can easily be viewed and seen as self-defeating and unfeasible in the moderate to long term. [/quote]

You think it's pointless for the elves to expel the Orlesian Empire from the Dales, but I don't, especially when it can provide a safe haven for elves across the continent. An independent Dales can be a mecca. A society where elves don't have to fear purges, or having their homes burnt down if they try to live outside the Alienage, and no more limitations of being servants in a human-centric society.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

And I clearly said the game would be boring if the protagonist only focused on the veil tears, and ignored what was going on around him. [/quote]

And I clearly made fun of you for saying that, and a number of other plots that could be filled with other sorts of content and context, would be boring. [/quote]

So you decided to make fun of me because I think the story would be interesting if the protagonist reacted and responded to the different societies he encountered, especially Orlais and Tevinter for a Dalish Inquisitor? I don't see the point.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 27 septembre 2013 - 11:44 .


#783
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 989 messages

Lord Aesir wrote...

Wow, it looks like this thread has spiraled even more off topic since I left it last night. How on earth hasn't this been locked?


A wizard did it.

#784
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

Guest_EntropicAngel_*
  • Guests

Plaintiff wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

People in prison, mental institutions, or quarantined are not slaves. Try again.

By whose definition? Yours?


That is what I was going to say and...wow. Your answer is illuminating.

#785
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

Guest_EntropicAngel_*
  • Guests

Plaintiff wrote...

Turnabout is fair play.


There it is. The phrase that comes up everytime and why I can't (almost) ever agree with your side.

Two wrongs never make a right. Never.

#786
Mistic

Mistic
  • Members
  • 2 199 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

A wizard did it.


Wizard Hawke did it :wizard:

No, seriously, when I entered here, I supposed the discussion would be about if Hawke's actions in Kirkwall were important or not, now that we know what happened in Asunder. I don't know why people are talking so much about the Dales.

Oh, well, nevermind. Let's put the blame on Hawke too. Probably s/he disappeared after DAII to travel back in time and ignite the Exalted March against the Dales. Bonus points if s/he was trying to prevent it from happening.

#787
Plaintiff

Plaintiff
  • Members
  • 6 998 messages

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Turnabout is fair play.


There it is. The phrase that comes up everytime and why I can't (almost) ever agree with your side.

Two wrongs never make a right. Never.

Two wrongs? I don't believe it is "wrong" at all for the elves to fight back against the extinction being forced on them by humans.

If it was your **** being taken, your life and the life of all your loved ones on the line, I bet you'd change your tune right quick.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 27 septembre 2013 - 01:42 .


#788
maliluka

maliluka
  • Members
  • 5 390 messages

Misticsan wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

A wizard did it.


Wizard Hawke did it :wizard:

No, seriously, when I entered here, I supposed the discussion would be about if Hawke's actions in Kirkwall were important or not, now that we know what happened in Asunder. I don't know why people are talking so much about the Dales.

Oh, well, nevermind. Let's put the blame on Hawke too. Probably s/he disappeared after DAII to travel back in time and ignite the Exalted March against the Dales. Bonus points if s/he was trying to prevent it from happening.


Hawke is to blame for the blight too Posted Image

#789
LobselVith8

LobselVith8
  • Members
  • 16 993 messages

Medhia Nox wrote...

@LobselVith8: Just a hypothetical... what would happen if you found the history of the elves is actually revisionist propaganda and that the elves had immortality because they were blood mages and killed millions of humans to keep immortal... then those humans rebelled... became Tevinter... crushed the elves... and then, modern Thedas. 

It's totally hypothetical - and despite being the story I'd likely portray - probably largely unsupported. 

Note: Not "totally" unsupported mind you.

Would elves still be this horribly maligned people? 

I find your zealous nature for fictional beings fascinating.


Do you find it zealous because you support the opposing faction? I'm genuinely curious, because you don't seem to take issue with players supporting tranquility or the Right of Annulment.

Helping the elves now largely has to do with the plight they face in present day Thedas, rather than any greviances over what transpired in the past; the other part being that it fits how I'd imagine a Dalish elf would react to the possibility of his people getting a home to call their own, after so many centuries of the People having no home to call their own. Your scenario wouldn't change the horrors of modern day Thedas for the elves, although it might dampen my interest in seeing a Dalish Inquisitor defeat Corypheus - a Magister of the Imperium that enslaved the elves and destroyed their original homeland.

#790
Mistic

Mistic
  • Members
  • 2 199 messages

maliluka wrote...
Hawke is to blame for the blight too Posted Image


Of course s/he is! After blaming himself/herself for all that happened in Kirkwall, Hawke found some ancient artifact or made a pact with some mighty being to travel back in time and set right what once went wrong. From the Blight (one of Hawke's siblings died because of it), to mages and templars hating each other, the plight of the elves, the Qunari invasions, etc. Of course, Hawke, being Hawke, just managed to make things worse.

The Warden found out, facepalmed (no matter if they're pure good or jerkass evil, the Warden is always effective at finding solutions, unlike Hawke) and now is pursuing Hawke across time. That explains why both of them are missing and why everything is always Hawke's fault. No exceptions! :devil:

In all seriousness, the events of Asunder make Hawke's role even less important. Well, after playing DAII, I understood Hawke's role as the ultimate fake hero. Not because s/he didn't try, but s/he always fell too short. The Warden didn't need a guy like Varric to embellish their tale (actually, Leliana admitted she had to take some things out from her ballads, although conversation with Morrigan implies it's because of the gorish details). I don't mind. I understood the burden on my Hawkes and pitied them, since they have to live up to a legendary version of themselves.

#791
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

Guest_EntropicAngel_*
  • Guests

Plaintiff wrote...

Two wrongs? I don't believe it is "wrong" at all for the elves to fight back against the extinction being forced on them by humans.

If it was your **** being taken, your life and the life of all your loved ones on the line, I bet you'd change your tune right quick.


No extinction is "being forced" on them. When there WAS an extinction being forced on them--sure. Fight back against that. Go after Tevinter. But that's not happening now. It's in the past. It was wrong, but further wrong to people who don't deserve it is just as abhorent.

#792
Jedi Master of Orion

Jedi Master of Orion
  • Members
  • 6 912 messages
The treatment the elves get today in Thedas is bad but saying that humans "are still committing genocide every day" is absurd. That's like saying every day for the elves is like the Fall of Arlathan.

#793
AlexanderCousland

AlexanderCousland
  • Members
  • 919 messages

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Two wrongs? I don't believe it is "wrong" at all for the elves to fight back against the extinction being forced on them by humans.

If it was your **** being taken, your life and the life of all your loved ones on the line, I bet you'd change your tune right quick.


No extinction is "being forced" on them. When there WAS an extinction being forced on them--sure. Fight back against that. Go after Tevinter. But that's not happening now. It's in the past. It was wrong, but further wrong to people who don't deserve it is just as abhorent.


It's really quite interesting to see attitudes like this honestly.
"Hey, they enslaved your people, destroyed remnants of your culture, and  institutionalized your entire race. But Hey forget about all that it's in the past, even though most of us still treat most of you like crap."

#794
Jedi Master of Orion

Jedi Master of Orion
  • Members
  • 6 912 messages
When the persecution of the past is used to justify further atrocities on people who weren't there I can say I fully agree with it.

#795
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

Guest_EntropicAngel_*
  • Guests

FreshIstay wrote...

It's really quite interesting to see attitudes like this honestly.
"Hey, they enslaved your people, destroyed remnants of your culture, and  institutionalized your entire race. But Hey forget about all that it's in the past, even though most of us still treat most of you like crap."


I wish I had time to argue with you, I really do. But I'm far too busy for the moment.

Here is the quote:

Plaintiff wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Fight fire with fire. 


Just to be clear here, you support horrible crimes being committed against a civilian population? 

So do you, as long as that civilian population has pointy ears.

Turnabout is fair play.



Plaintiff said that elves committing horrible crimes was acceptable because it was done to them first. That's wrong. Wrong is wrong, no matter who "did it first."

#796
TheKomandorShepard

TheKomandorShepard
  • Members
  • 8 491 messages
Elves have right to kill all humans humans are right to kill all elves might makes right.


"Plaintiff said that elves committing horrible crimes was acceptable
because it was done to them first. That's wrong. Wrong is wrong, no
matter who "did it first." "

what is wrong depends on your point of view for example you said crimes so precisely said if something is crime this is bad.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 27 septembre 2013 - 04:01 .


#797
Vortex13

Vortex13
  • Members
  • 4 191 messages

FreshIstay wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Two wrongs? I don't believe it is "wrong" at all for the elves to fight back against the extinction being forced on them by humans.

If it was your **** being taken, your life and the life of all your loved ones on the line, I bet you'd change your tune right quick.


No extinction is "being forced" on them. When there WAS an extinction being forced on them--sure. Fight back against that. Go after Tevinter. But that's not happening now. It's in the past. It was wrong, but further wrong to people who don't deserve it is just as abhorent.


It's really quite interesting to see attitudes like this honestly.
"Hey, they enslaved your people, destroyed remnants of your culture, and  institutionalized your entire race. But Hey forget about all that it's in the past, even though most of us still treat most of you like crap."


I'm with Entropic Angel on this, attacking a civilian popultation because of what happen hundreds of years ago is not justified, its simply keeping the endless cycle of attack, retaliation, revenge, and violence going.

Yeah the Elves have a pretty crappy existance, and they are discriminated agaisnt, but that doesn't mean that ALL humans are evil people that need to be punished. The City Elf origin, the human noble breaks up your wedding and tries to rape you (if female) or your wife (if male), this is an evil act, one that the PC rightfully fights agaisnt and has the option of avenging the violation.

But to say that the above action is justification for elves to rape, pillage, and kill any humans they find is false, all that would be doing is giving the humans a 'justification' to rape, pillage, and kill any elves they find. Or to bring the example down to a more personal level. If the Elf PC, when going through the noble's house to avenge the attempted rape, if they had discovered a human child and killed said child, that would in no way be justification for what was done to them.

Or as a real world example, a grandson of a Holocoust survivor, and a grandson of an SS officer that took part in the murdering of the the other grandson's great grand parents. Would the Holocoust survior's grandson be justified in killing the SS Officer's grandson's family because of events that happened before either were even born?

#798
MisterJB

MisterJB
  • Members
  • 15 587 messages
So, basically, the elven position on this debate is "Yes, placing the Dales back in elven hands would mean the mass murders, torture and rape of thousands of humans but that is ok because it will help elves and the humans totally have it coming anyway."

Lovely.

#799
badboy64

badboy64
  • Members
  • 911 messages
If I was a Elf I would just make the organization that is responsible for their suffering pay for what has been done to them. Not all humans.

#800
Br3admax

Br3admax
  • Members
  • 12 316 messages

badboy64 wrote...

If I was a Elf I would just make the organization that is responsible for their suffering pay for what has been done to them. Not all humans.

Considering that no one from that time is still alive, I find that a very sad decision to make.