1256 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

So, basically, the elven position on this debate is "Yes, placing the Dales back in elven hands would mean the mass murders, torture and rape of thousands of humans but that is ok because it will help elves and the humans totally have it coming anyway."

Lovely.

It's actually about protecting elves from being murdered, tortured, or raped by humans, since there's no safe place in the whole continent for the elven people. Overthrowing the Orlesian occupation could finally provide a sanctuary for elves across Thedas, where they won't be purged, hunted, or prevented from worshipping the Creators by Chantry law.

[MisterJB]

"It's ok to commit genocide because it will help elves."
Thanks for proving my point.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

"It's ok to commit genocide because it will help elves."
Thanks for proving my point.

Overthrowing the Orlesian Empire isn't genocide.

[MisterJB]

Of course, it would be a very peaceful affair where no one would be hurt at all. Especially not the orlesians.

[RepHope]

MisterJB wrote...

Of course, it would be a very peaceful affair where no one would be hurt at all. Especially not the orlesians.

and its not like everybody's going to get PO'd at the uppity elves and put them down hard. I'm sure the elves will be welcomed with open arms!

[RepHope]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

"It's ok to commit genocide because it will help elves."
Thanks for proving my point.

Overthrowing the Orlesian Empire isn't genocide.

by that logic neither was the fall of the Dales

[badboy64]

Br3ad wrote...

badboy64 wrote...

If I was a Elf I would just make the organization that is responsible for their suffering pay for what has been done to them. Not all humans.

Considering that no one from that time is still alive, I find that a very sad decision to make. 

Well then make it any of their decendents suffer then but not by killing them but finding some way to make them feel your pain in some way.

Modifié par badboy64, 27 septembre 2013 - 08:54 .

[Heimdall]

badboy64 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

badboy64 wrote...

If I was a Elf I would just make the organization that is responsible for their suffering pay for what has been done to them. Not all humans.

Considering that no one from that time is still alive, I find that a very sad decision to make. 

Well then make it any of their decendents suffer then but not by killing them but finding some way to make them feel your pain in some way.

How are their descendants deserving of any suffering for their ancestor's actions?

[Vortex13]

Lord Aesir wrote...

badboy64 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

badboy64 wrote...

If I was a Elf I would just make the organization that is responsible for their suffering pay for what has been done to them. Not all humans.

Considering that no one from that time is still alive, I find that a very sad decision to make. 

Well then make it any of their decendents suffer then but not by killing them but finding some way to make them feel your pain in some way.

How are their descendants deserving of any suffering for their ancestor's actions?

This.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

So, basically, the elven position on this debate is "Yes, placing the Dales back in elven hands would mean the mass murders, torture and rape of thousands of humans but that is ok because it will help elves and the humans totally have it coming anyway."

Lovely.

It's actually about protecting elves from being murdered, tortured, or raped by humans, since there's no safe place in the whole continent for the elven people. Overthrowing the Orlesian occupation could finally provide a sanctuary for elves across Thedas, where they won't be purged, hunted, or prevented from worshipping the Creators by Chantry law.

I think the point that you seem to keep missing or ignoring by reapeating this, is that is doesn't matter. Whether elves would benefit from ethnic cleansing of the former Dales is irrelevant. Wrong is still wrong. An atrocity is still an atrocity even if it helps the perpetrators. Oppressed minorities can still do morraly wrong things.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 27 septembre 2013 - 09:52 .

[Vortex13]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

So, basically, the elven position on this debate is "Yes, placing the Dales back in elven hands would mean the mass murders, torture and rape of thousands of humans but that is ok because it will help elves and the humans totally have it coming anyway."

Lovely.

It's actually about protecting elves from being murdered, tortured, or raped by humans, since there's no safe place in the whole continent for the elven people. Overthrowing the Orlesian occupation could finally provide a sanctuary for elves across Thedas, where they won't be purged, hunted, or prevented from worshipping the Creators by Chantry law.

I think the point that you seem to keep missing or ignoring by reapeating this, is that is doesn't matter. Whether elves would benefit from ethnic cleansing of the former Dales is irrelevant. Wrong is still wrong. An atrocity is still an atrocity even if it helps the perpetrators. Oppressed minorities can still do morraly wrong things.

Another thing to consider, if the Elves take the former Dales back. Are the Elves totally blameless if they evict human families that have lived there for generations?

You could say that it is Elven land to begin with, but all of the Elves coming to reclaim the land have never lived there, whereas the human inhabitants; inhabitants who weren't alive when the ancient Elves where evicted; have been there their entire lives.

How is elves kicking a family out of their family home, any different then the humans who kicked the elves out of their homes?

[BlueMagitek]

ianvillan wrote...

The circle towers fund a lot of the Templars, the tranquil that the Templars are always creating create magical items that they sell this goes to fund the Templars.

The funds go to the Circle, but let's assume you're right.

The Chantry then still needs to provide lyrium to its troops.  Not just food, arms & armor, supplies and the rest of what goes into an army (I'm not sure they were using siege weaponry?) but lyrium.  This is only from Orzammar (and *maybe* Kal Sharock).  Which then has to travel from the Dwarves to Orlais to the Dalish border.  That's a crazy supply line.  That's a terrible way of managing a moving army.

Besides, Templar are specifically anti-Mage.  Yes, they can fight normal people, but they don't have any special bonuses against elven archers.  It would be a complete waste of resources to use them (and in doing so empty the Circles of their guard).

*Sorry I mispelled all the things!

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I like to maintain a difference between the two, finding that to call "without rules" true anarchy does the term a disservice, because the actual translation is simply "without rulers". Chaos is anarchy only because there are no rulers to create a sense of order, but again... even then it doesn't fit in the true notion of the word IMO.

But again, neither here nor there. Back to Elves and Mages and battlebears and gorilla mounts.

My darling, you've been gone so long gorilla mounts have long vanished from my mind! 

Besides, gorillas are medium sized creatures and Dwarves aren't in the small category.

[LobselVith8]

RepHope wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Overthrowing the Orlesian Empire isn't genocide.

by that logic neither was the fall of the Dales 

Sending your army into a sovereign nation because the inhabitants won't convert to your religion is another issue entirely.

[BlueMagitek]

And there you are completely clinging to one side of the story.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's actually about protecting elves from being murdered, tortured, or raped by humans, since there's no safe place in the whole continent for the elven people. Overthrowing the Orlesian occupation could finally provide a sanctuary for elves across Thedas, where they won't be purged, hunted, or prevented from worshipping the Creators by Chantry law.

I think the point that you seem to keep missing or ignoring by reapeating this, is that is doesn't matter. Whether elves would benefit from ethnic cleansing of the former Dales is irrelevant. Wrong is still wrong. An atrocity is still an atrocity even if it helps the perpetrators. Oppressed minorities can still do morraly wrong things. 

Relocation wouldn't necessitate the death of civilians, while elves are actually being killed in purges in the human nations, free mages can be killed in lynch mobs, and Andrastian humans are violently opposed to 'heathens'. I'm not seeing how giving elves a safe place from an inherently racist and often lethal system is morally wrong. Personally, I think that the status quo is monstrous, and shouldn't be condoned.

[TheKomandorShepard]

MisterJB wrote...

"It's ok to commit genocide because it will help elves."
Thanks for proving my point.

not that your templars did that 13115 times tam tam tam

[BlueMagitek]

Misticsan wrote...

Oh, well, nevermind. Let's put the blame on Hawke too. Probably s/he disappeared after DAII to travel back in time and ignite the Exalted March against the Dales. Bonus points if s/he was trying to prevent it from happening.

That only happens if you help Merrill with the mirror though.

[TheKomandorShepard]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Misticsan wrote...

Oh, well, nevermind. Let's put the blame on Hawke too. Probably s/he disappeared after DAII to travel back in time and ignite the Exalted March against the Dales. Bonus points if s/he was trying to prevent it from happening.

That only happens if you help Merrill with the mirror though.

nah in da 2 there is no one decision you are screwd in da 2 there is you are fu*** no matter what what you choose.

[LobselVith8]

Vortex13 wrote...

Another thing to consider, if the Elves take the former Dales back. Are the Elves totally blameless if they evict human families that have lived there for generations?

You could say that it is Elven land to begin with, but all of the Elves coming to reclaim the land have never lived there, whereas the human inhabitants; inhabitants who weren't alive when the ancient Elves where evicted; have been there their entire lives.

How is elves kicking a family out of their family home, any different then the humans who kicked the elves out of their homes? 

There's an entire continent of humans who aren't going to hunt down, torture, or murder the displaced humans for following the same religion and being the same race as they are; the same isn't true for the Alienage elves killed in purges (as we see with the massacre at the orphanage in the Denerim Alienage) or the Dalish elves who are forced to be nomadic to stay alive. An independent Dales would be the only sanctuary that elves would have across the entire scope of the continent.

[BlueMagitek]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

nah in da 2 there is no one decision you are screwd in da 2 there is you are fu*** no matter what what you choose.

Yes, but Hawke only ends up starting the Orlais/Dalish conflict if the mirror is completed.

[TheKomandorShepard]

BlueMagitek wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

nah in da 2 there is no one decision you are screwd in da 2 there is you are fu*** no matter what what you choose.

Yes, but Hawke only ends up starting the Orlais/Dalish conflict if the mirror is completed.

what hawke starts war based on his choice and thats matter but but that's impossible it can be only error in the matrix:o

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 27 septembre 2013 - 10:55 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's an entire continent of humans who aren't going to hunt down, torture, or murder the displaced humans for following the same religion and being the same race as they are; the same isn't true for the Alienage elves killed in purges (as we see with the massacre at the orphanage in the Denerim Alienage) or the Dalish elves who are forced to be nomadic to stay alive. An independent Dales would be the only sanctuary that elves would have across the entire scope of the continent.

Good lord. What elven purges?

A new home for the elves is a noble goal, but you again and again fail to see the point that trying to re-establish that home in the Dales by force  *WILL* lead to bloodshed and IS a crime.

I'm sorry, but "I had a shi**ier life than you, thus it's ok for me to kill youbecause it will MAYBE improve my lot" is neither sensible or moral.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 27 septembre 2013 - 11:40 .

[BlueMagitek]

There are Alienage purges, though. One actually happened in Denerim after the CE origin.

[EmperorSahlertz]

To be fair, alienages does experience purges from time to time. If the Elves start to riot and become too unruly, it isn't unheard of for the city watch to crack down on them. It isn't common, and certainly doesn't constitute genocide, but it is a horrible action.
However, I don't think that the Elves in particular is a target of these. Just ghettoes in general. We have seen similar actions in our world in medieval times, where the ghettoes would be purged to reestablish order. It just so happens in Thedas, that most of the inhabitants in the ghettos/alienages are Elves.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 27 septembre 2013 - 11:30 .