1256 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Relocation wouldn't necessitate the death of civilians, while elves are actually being killed in purges in the human nations, free mages can be killed in lynch mobs, and Andrastian humans are violently opposed to 'heathens'. I'm not seeing how giving elves a safe place from an inherently racist and often lethal system is morally wrong. Personally, I think that the status quo is monstrous, and shouldn't be condoned.

Boy, the world you live in must be great. In my world, planet Earth, whenever a group of people lost a war and were forcibly relocated very, very bad things happened to said group of people.

[TheKomandorShepard]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

How is elves kicking a family out of their family home, any different then the humans who kicked the elves out of their homes? [/quote]

There's an entire continent of humans who aren't going to hunt down, torture, or murder the displaced humans for following the same religion and being the same race as they are; the same isn't true for the Alienage elves killed in purges (as we see with the massacre at the orphanage in the Denerim Alienage) or the Dalish elves who are forced to be nomadic to stay alive. An independent Dales would be the only sanctuary that elves would have across the entire scope of the continent.[/quote]

Good lord. What elven purges?

A new home for the elves is a noble goal, but you again and again fail to see the point that trying to re-establish that home in the Dales by force  *WILL* lead to bloodshed and IS a crime.

I'm sorry, but "I had a shi**ier life than you, thus it's ok for me to kill youbecause it will MAYBE improve my lot" is neither sensible or moral.

[/quote]

not that templars are perform pacifist methods to achieve own goals ups bloodshed are common well that only way they can handle any problem and it isn't only crime because templars are in charge.

"I'm sorry, but "I had a shi**ier life than you, thus it's ok for me to
kill youbecause it will MAYBE improve my lot" is neither sensible or
moral." reason as good as " will kill you because you may harm me or i kill you becuse i don't like that you used blood magic.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 27 septembre 2013 - 11:35 .

[BlueMagitek]

Wait, doesn't the Dalish description of the Long Walk (Tevinter -> Dales journey) describe it as a hellish experience?

[MisterJB]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Wait, doesn't the Dalish description of the Long Walk (Tevinter -> Dales journey) describe it as a hellish experience?

No, that was because it was those villainous humans who caused it. The superior elves would never harm another innocent being; altough the mere act of taking their homes from them would already be harming innocents but we're going to ignore that because it would actually make us confront the fact what we're suggesting it's pretty ghastly.

The elves will just ask the humans to go and they will do so calmy and without rush. No elf whatsoever will want to take advantage of this newfound power to extract what s/he will view as revenge, oh no.
Afterwards, there will be pie and cake.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Wait, doesn't the Dalish description of the Long Walk (Tevinter -> Dales journey) describe it as a hellish experience?

No, that was because it was those villainous humans who caused it. The superior elves would never harm another innocent being; altough the mere act of taking their homes from them would already be harming innocents but we're going to ignore that because it would actually make us confront the fact what we're suggesting it's pretty ghastly.

The elves will just ask the humans to go and they will do so calmy and without rush. No elf whatsoever will want to take advantage of this newfound power to extract what s/he will view as revenge, oh no.
Afterwards, there will be pie and cake.

I sense a teaspoon of sarcasm....

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Relocation wouldn't necessitate the death of civilians, while elves are actually being killed in purges in the human nations, free mages can be killed in lynch mobs, and Andrastian humans are violently opposed to 'heathens'. I'm not seeing how giving elves a safe place from an inherently racist and often lethal system is morally wrong. Personally, I think that the status quo is monstrous, and shouldn't be condoned. 

Boy, the world you live in must be great. In my world, planet Earth, whenever a group of people lost a war and were forcibly relocated very, very bad things happened to said group of people.

Relocation doesn't demand the death of innocent people, and the primary focus is on giving the elves land where they would be safe from purges and being hunted down for being heretics who have free mages among them. I think the elves reclaiming the Dales from the Orlesian Empire is preferable to the status quo.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Relocation wouldn't necessitate the death of civilians, while elves are actually being killed in purges in the human nations, free mages can be killed in lynch mobs, and Andrastian humans are violently opposed to 'heathens'. I'm not seeing how giving elves a safe place from an inherently racist and often lethal system is morally wrong. Personally, I think that the status quo is monstrous, and shouldn't be condoned. 

Boy, the world you live in must be great. In my world, planet Earth, whenever a group of people lost a war and were forcibly relocated very, very bad things happened to said group of people.

Relocation doesn't demand the death of innocent people, and the primary focus is on giving the elves land where they would be safe from purges and being hunted down for being heretics who have free mages among them. I think the elves reclaiming the Dales from the Orlesian Empire is preferable to the status quo.

It doesn't demand the death of innocents, but it does cause them. And if the focus is merely to find a new homeland for the Elves, then let them go to the far south where no humans live, or cross the western mountains, where also no humans live. There they will be free of all human contact, and they won't even have to harm anohter living being while moving there.

Let's be honest. A new homeland for the Elves, is not just what you really want, now is it? No. You want to attempt to cripple the Chantry and Orlais along in the process. Actually, I would even go so far, as to say that the homeland of the Elves is a secondary concern for you. If it was the primary concern, you wouldn't be so stuck up on the Dales specifically. So it must be the crippling of Orlais and the Chantry that is so important to you.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Relocation doesn't demand the death of innocent people, and the primary focus is on giving the elves land where they would be safe from purges and being hunted down for being heretics who have free mages among them. I think the elves reclaiming the Dales from the Orlesian Empire is preferable to the status quo.

You seem to be missing the point that it would also let everyone know where the heretic mages are, and if the Chantry is as super hellbent on destroying the Dalish as you believe, the Dales after over a century of isolationism and building their forces lost the war they created for themselves, and they were in a much better position then.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Relocation wouldn't necessitate the death of civilians, while elves are actually being killed in purges in the human nations, free mages can be killed in lynch mobs, and Andrastian humans are violently opposed to 'heathens'. I'm not seeing how giving elves a safe place from an inherently racist and often lethal system is morally wrong. Personally, I think that the status quo is monstrous, and shouldn't be condoned. 

Boy, the world you live in must be great. In my world, planet Earth, whenever a group of people lost a war and were forcibly relocated very, very bad things happened to said group of people.

Relocation doesn't demand the death of innocent people, and the primary focus is on giving the elves land where they would be safe from purges and being hunted down for being heretics who have free mages among them. I think the elves reclaiming the Dales from the Orlesian Empire is preferable to the status quo.

It doesn't demand the death of innocents, but it does cause them. And if the focus is merely to find a new homeland for the Elves, then let them go to the far south where no humans live, or cross the western mountains, where also no humans live. There they will be free of all human contact, and they won't even have to harm anohter living being while moving there.

Let's be honest. A new homeland for the Elves, is not just what you really want, now is it? No. You want to attempt to cripple the Chantry and Orlais along in the process. Actually, I would even go so far, as to say that the homeland of the Elves is a secondary concern for you. If it was the primary concern, you wouldn't be so stuck up on the Dales specifically. So it must be the crippling of Orlais and the Chantry that is so important to you.

I'd say it is taking back stolen land that's the primary concern.

[BlueMagitek]

It's been 700+ years, the Dalish were on it for significantly less than that. ~_~

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The fact that Thedas is dominated by humans is an immutable fact of reality that elves must accept to survive. They need to find a way to coexist with them. Even if they were capable of driving out the entire human population of Southern Orlais (which I doubt). It's not a long term solution for the plight of the elves. All the suffering and refugees the elves would certainly spread anti-elven sentiment throughout much of Thedas. Even if the humans wouldn't counter attack now, antaognizing them will only doom this elven nation once again. Even in the golden age days before the Fall of Arlathan, the elves did not have the numbers that humans have now.

[cjones91]

BlueMagitek wrote...

It's been 700+ years, the Dalish were on it for significantly less than that. ~_~

It's still their land.Their entire kingdom was based in the Dales which means the Dalish would have a legitimate claim if they were a human noble who had their lands stolen from them.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

They've been gone for the better part of a millennium. Much longer than they actually lived there. Orlesians are the natives of the Dales now.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 28 septembre 2013 - 12:44 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Relocation doesn't demand the death of innocent people, and the primary focus is on giving the elves land where they would be safe from purges and being hunted down for being heretics who have free mages among them. I think the elves reclaiming the Dales from the Orlesian Empire is preferable to the status quo.

It doesn't demand the death of innocents, but it does cause them. And if the focus is merely to find a new homeland for the Elves, then let them go to the far south where no humans live, or cross the western mountains, where also no humans live. There they will be free of all human contact, and they won't even have to harm anohter living being while moving there.

Except there could be an elven rebellion in the Dales, and I'm not interested in maintaining the status quo by opposing them if they hold the promise of providing an independent elven mecca to the subjugated elves who have endured hardships for countless generations in the human kingdoms, as well as the People who have had to live on the run from templars and Andrastians.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Let's be honest. A new homeland for the Elves, is not just what you really want, now is it? No. You want to attempt to cripple the Chantry and Orlais along in the process. Actually, I would even go so far, as to say that the homeland of the Elves is a secondary concern for you. If it was the primary concern, you wouldn't be so stuck up on the Dales specifically. So it must be the crippling of Orlais and the Chantry that is so important to you. 

The rumored elven rebellion in the Dales is why the possibility of reclaiming the Dales was addressed. The Chantry is already sundered, and Orlais divided in civil war. Frankly, I am more interested in the reclamation of an elven homeland.

[TK514]

I keep saying it: The only way the elves are ever going to have a homeland again is if they find a spot humanity doesn't want or doesn't know about. They will never be able to hold land against humans or qunari by force of arms.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Relocation doesn't demand the death of innocent people, and the primary focus is on giving the elves land where they would be safe from purges and being hunted down for being heretics who have free mages among them. I think the elves reclaiming the Dales from the Orlesian Empire is preferable to the status quo.

You seem to be missing the point that it would also let everyone know where the heretic mages are, and if the Chantry is as super hellbent on destroying the Dalish as you believe, the Dales after over a century of isolationism and building their forces lost the war they created for themselves, and they were in a much better position then. 

With the Mage-Templar War across Thedas and the civil war in Orlais, I don't think the world is in a position to usurp control of an independent Dales from the elves, if a rebellion can emancipate the kingdom from Orlesian rule. And this is assuming the suspected elven rebellion in the Dales is focused on dislodging the Orlesians from power over the conquered elven kingdom.

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Relocation doesn't demand the death of innocent people, and the primary focus is on giving the elves land where they would be safe from purges and being hunted down for being heretics who have free mages among them. I think the elves reclaiming the Dales from the Orlesian Empire is preferable to the status quo.

You seem to be missing the point that it would also let everyone know where the heretic mages are, and if the Chantry is as super hellbent on destroying the Dalish as you believe, the Dales after over a century of isolationism and building their forces lost the war they created for themselves, and they were in a much better position then. 

With the Mage-Templar War across Thedas and the civil war in Orlais, I don't think the world is in a position to usurp control of an independent Dales from the elves, if a rebellion can emancipate the kingdom from Orlesian rule. And this is assuming the suspected elven rebellion in the Dales is focused on dislodging the Orlesians from power over the conquered elven kingdom.

So what you're saying is you only care about the symbolic victory of elves occupying the Orlesian province for a couple of years before humanity comes back and wipes them out.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Relocation doesn't demand the death of innocent people, and the primary focus is on giving the elves land where they would be safe from purges and being hunted down for being heretics who have free mages among them. I think the elves reclaiming the Dales from the Orlesian Empire is preferable to the status quo.

You seem to be missing the point that it would also let everyone know where the heretic mages are, and if the Chantry is as super hellbent on destroying the Dalish as you believe, the Dales after over a century of isolationism and building their forces lost the war they created for themselves, and they were in a much better position then. 

With the Mage-Templar War across Thedas and the civil war in Orlais, I don't think the world is in a position to usurp control of an independent Dales from the elves, if a rebellion can emancipate the kingdom from Orlesian rule. And this is assuming the suspected elven rebellion in the Dales is focused on dislodging the Orlesians from power over the conquered elven kingdom.

Emancipate? There is nothing left to emancipate. The Dales was utterly destroyed in the war. They weren't annexed, they didn't become a satrapy or anything of the like. They were destroyed.
Honestly, stop trying to use all those damn buzzwords....

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The fact that Thedas is dominated by humans is an immutable fact of reality that elves must accept to survive. They need to find a way to coexist with them. Even if they were capable of driving out the entire human population of Southern Orlais (which I doubt). It's not a long term solution for the plight of the elves.

It's not co-existence; it's servitude and slavery, and it's been that way for centuries. I've seem what bending knee to humanity has done for the elves; I'm interested in an alternative. If Inquisition provides that with an elven rebellion in the Dales, then I'm interested in helping their cause. 

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

All the suffering and refugees the elves would certainly spread anti-elven sentiment throughout much of Thedas. Even if the humans wouldn't counter attack now, antaognizing them will only doom this elven nation once again. Even in the golden age days before the Fall of Arlathan, the elves did not have the numbers that humans have now.

Anti-elven sentiment has existed for centuries, and even elven heroes haven't changed the way humans see the elven people. That isn't going to change if the elves choose to do nothing to change their plight.

[cjones91]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

They've been gone for the better part of a millennium. Much longer than they actually lived there. Orlesians are the natives of the Dales now.

Except they aren't really natives..the Orlesians did'nt discover the Dales and they were'nt the first ones to settle there.The Dales were given to the elves for their help against Tevinter so that land is rightfully theirs.The Orlesians are just squatters as far as I'm concerned.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

They've been gone for the better part of a millennium. Much longer than they actually lived there. Orlesians are the natives of the Dales now.

The Dales isn't gone. I don't deny that the the Orlesian occupation continues, but I'm hoping an elven protagonist can work with his people to change that. I don't see why the elven Inquisitor should be limited to helping Celene or Gaspard when the elven people in the occupied kingdom could use the Inquisitor's help to break free from the grip of the Orlesian Empire and the Andrastian Chantry.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The fact that Thedas is dominated by humans is an immutable fact of reality that elves must accept to survive. They need to find a way to coexist with them. Even if they were capable of driving out the entire human population of Southern Orlais (which I doubt). It's not a long term solution for the plight of the elves.

It's not co-existence; it's servitude and slavery, and it's been that way for centuries. I've seem what bending knee to humanity has done for the elves; I'm interested in an alternative. If Inquisition provides that with an elven rebellion in the Dales, then I'm interested in helping their cause. 

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

All the suffering and refugees the elves would certainly spread anti-elven sentiment throughout much of Thedas. Even if the humans wouldn't counter attack now, antaognizing them will only doom this elven nation once again. Even in the golden age days before the Fall of Arlathan, the elves did not have the numbers that humans have now.

Anti-elven sentiment has existed for centuries, and even elven heroes haven't changed the way humans see the elven people. That isn't going to change if the elves choose to do nothing to change their plight.

I wasn't referring specifically to the state things are now but general attitude elves need to take to survive in Thedas, whether they establish a state of their own somewhere or not. I didn't mean to say that elves need to accept being servants or second class citizens, but that they can't pretend that humans aren't politcally important.

Your "alternative" is the same attitude that lead to the events that ultimately led them down the road to the falls of the Dales and possibly Arlathan. There were many different factors in both cases but the elves apparently very self absorbed insular perspective contributed in the second and probably the first catastrophe the elves suffered.

Second, just because there is an elven rebellion in Orlais that you want to support, doesn't mean you actually can. Or even necessarily that the rebellion will still be going on by the time the game starts.

Making anti-elven sentiment worse is going to doom elven prospects for a better life. Things might be bad now but ethnic cleansing of human settlments is going to make things much worse for the elves, especially in the long run.

The Dales weren't popular with humans for expelling Chantry missionaries. But they likely provoked much more anger by just standing by while darkspawn burned nearby Montismmard. And after the humans believed the elves were making human sacrifices out of the inhabitants of a defenseless village (true or not) they are driven into a frenzy strong into to fight a 10 year holy war and crush the Dales alltogether.

Things can still be worse for them than they are now in any number of ways. As any escaped Tevinter slave could probably attest to.

cjones91 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

They've been gone for the better part of a millennium. Much longer than they actually lived there. Orlesians are the natives of the Dales now.

Except they aren't really natives..the Orlesians did'nt discover the Dales and they were'nt the first ones to settle there.The Dales were given to the elves for their help against Tevinter so that land is rightfully theirs.The Orlesians are just squatters as far as I'm concerned.

After nearly a thousand years? They aren't squatters. That's their home. And Seeing as the Dales were granted to the  elves by Maferath from the territory he controlled, the elves aren't the "real" natives either.

LobselVith8 wrote...

With the Mage-Templar War across Thedas and the civil war in Orlais, I don't think the world is in a position to usurp control of an independent Dales from the elves, if a rebellion can emancipate the kingdom from Orlesian rule. And this is assuming the suspected elven rebellion in the Dales is focused on dislodging the Orlesians from power over the conquered elven kingdom.

Even assuming this is true now, (which is still highly questionable) that won't be true later. Especially since elves are not going to be immune from all the instability ravaging the world, and especially in a territory they just conquered, possibly at great cost. The original Dales existed for nearly 300 years, you think the entire world is going to be too weak to do anything about a hostile elven nation for that long?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 28 septembre 2013 - 02:42 .

[BlueMagitek]

cjones91 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

It's been 700+ years, the Dalish were on it for significantly less than that. ~_~

It's still their land.Their entire kingdom was based in the Dales which means the Dalish would have a legitimate claim if they were a human noble who had their lands stolen from them.

Uh, if it was anyone's land to begin with, it would be the barbarians, but I don't see ya'll clamoring for a return for their ancestral lands.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

With the Mage-Templar War across Thedas and the civil war in Orlais, I don't think the world is in a position to usurp control of an independent Dales from the elves, if a rebellion can emancipate the kingdom from Orlesian rule. And this is assuming the suspected elven rebellion in the Dales is focused on dislodging the Orlesians from power over the conquered elven kingdom.

I don't think you quite understand that the current state of Thedas is only a temporary thing.   And what happens when Orlais wants its land back and strikes a deal with Tevinter; all the elven slaves they want from the re-conquered Dales for the small price of some military assistance?  Or if they just defeat the elves again, who again are in worse straits than their ancestors were when they started the fight the first time?

And there is no conquered Dalish Kingdom.  They've been gone for 700+ years and haven't made a claim for it to our knowledge.

[Plaintiff]

EntropicAngel wrote...
No extinction is "being forced" on them.

Yes it is. If you think otherwise, then you're not paying attention.

When there WAS an extinction being forced on them--sure. Fight back against that. Go after Tevinter. But that's not happening now. It's in the past.

It's not in the past. It's absolutely happening right now. By using violence to prevent the Dalish from settling anywhere, by forcing the city elves to live in cramped, squalid quarters rife with disease, by allowing the townspeople to assault any elf that manages to claw their way out of the shtetl, by stamping out their faith with propoganda and sending templars to steal their mage children, the humans are driving elves to extinction.

What do you think genocide looks like? It looks exactly like what the humans are doing to the elves right now. Any student of history can see the signs.

It was wrong, but further wrong to people who don't deserve it is just as abhorent.

Who says humans don't deserve it? They absolutely do.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 28 septembre 2013 - 02:57 .