1256 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

RepHope wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

"It's ok to commit genocide because it will help elves."
Thanks for proving my point.

Overthrowing the Orlesian Empire isn't genocide.

by that logic neither was the fall of the Dales

Derp. Overthrowing the Orlesian Empire won't bring humanity even close to the danger of going extinct. The Dales were the last bastion of elvish culture.

[BlueMagitek]

Actually it seems like the Dalish just don't want land. The Sabrae clan left the lands given to the Dalish, remember?

"But Blue, Flemeth made them do it!"

Flemeth asked them to deliver something. While it is important for them to keep their debts, they could have gone back at any time, but they just left Ashalle there for presumably no reason. :/

[Br3admax]

/implying that all humans are the same and that an entire race deserves punishment.
/implying that humans should let the Dalish claim lands because they are Dalish, no other reason.
/implying that Templars only take elven children.
/implying that elves are attacked in the streets all the time more than anyone else.
/implying this is second class citizens always have genocide committed against them.
/implying that the City Elves didn't choose to be followers of Andraste
/implying that religion and a small percentage of children lead to a species existence.

None of those implications are true in the slightest. No evidence suggest such.

[Dean_the_Young]

Plaintiff wrote...

RepHope wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

"It's ok to commit genocide because it will help elves."
Thanks for proving my point.

Overthrowing the Orlesian Empire isn't genocide.

by that logic neither was the fall of the Dales

Derp. Overthrowing the Orlesian Empire won't bring humanity even close to the danger of going extinct. The Dales were the last bastion of elvish culture.

And?

What you describe doesn't disqualify it from being genoicde of humans. Genocide doesn't need to be complete to qualify- most historic genocides were geographically limited and only got a fraction of the people. They were still genocides.

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Actually it seems like the Dalish just don't want land. The Sabrae clan left the lands given to the Dalish, remember?

"But Blue, Flemeth made them do it!"

Flemeth asked them to deliver something. While it is important for them to keep their debts, they could have gone back at any time, but they just left Ashalle there for presumably no reason. :/

Actually, Ashalle of Merrill's clan remained in Ferelden to manage the Dalish Boon, as per Mary Kirby. And Zathrien/Lanaya's clan might be living there also, for all we know.

Also, if the Dalish Boon was granted, if Hawke takes Merrill along to visit Alistair, this exchange occurs:

Merrill: We... we heard the Dalish were given land in
Ferelden. Is it true?

Alistair: Yes. I wish I could say that went better.

Merrill: Why? What happened?

Alistair: It's... a long story. I intend to make it up to your people, however. I owe an old friend of mine too much to do otherwise.

Obvious implication: humans ****ed the elves over. Again.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 28 septembre 2013 - 03:14 .

[LobselVith8]

TK514 wrote...

I keep saying it: The only way the elves are ever going to have a homeland again is if they find a spot humanity doesn't want or doesn't know about. They will never be able to hold land against humans or qunari by force of arms.

I'm addressing the possibility of the Inquisitor helping an elven rebellion in the Dales. I don't think an independent elven kingdom is impossible, especially with the world distracted by so many cataclysms going on in unison.

[Dean_the_Young]

cjones91 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

They've been gone for the better part of a millennium. Much longer than they actually lived there. Orlesians are the natives of the Dales now.

Except they aren't really natives..the Orlesians did'nt discover the Dales and they were'nt the first ones to settle there.The Dales were given to the elves for their help against Tevinter so that land is rightfully theirs.The Orlesians are just squatters as far as I'm concerned.

The the Dalish should be considered previous squatters as well, since they weren't 'native' to the area either. The fact that the Dales were given, and not just to elves who had lived there previously, kind of discredits the idea of ancient, always settled homeland. They were squatting on land for a lot less time than the humans.

There's also the point that, after a long enough time, squatters effectively own the land they squat on. There are plenty of common law precedents relating to that in the past, hence why anyone here is actually feeling bad about what happened to the Dales, but when generations of families have lived on a land they stop being temporary occupiers and are, well, residents.

[BlueMagitek]

Plaintiff wrote...

Actually, Ashalle of Merrill's clan remained in Ferelden to manage the Dalish Boon, as per Mary Kirby. And Zathrien/Lanaya's clan might be living there also, for all we know.

Also, if the Dalish Boon was granted, if Hawke takes Merrill along to visit Alistair, this exchange occurs:

Merrill: We... we heard the Dalish were given land in
Ferelden. Is it true?

Alistair: Yes. I wish I could say that went better.

Merrill: Why? What happened?

Alistair: It's... a long story. I intend to make it up to your people, however. I owe an old friend of mine too much to do otherwise.

Obvious implication: humans ****ed the elves over. Again.

Dude, that's what I said, they totally just left Ashalle there.  Not the Keeper.  Not the person who is supposed to be managing the damn thing, just some random woman who was not indicated to have leadership abilities nor communication abilities for other clans.  Good planning there. :/

Please, it's ****ing Alistar.  He's probably sad they don't have cheese there.

Thank goodness the City Elves still have a Bann 2/3 of the time.

[Plaintiff]

Br3ad wrote...
/implying that all humans are the same and that an entire race deserves punishment.

Implying? Hell, I'll state it outright. Any human that stands by and allows the treatment of the elves to continue is exactly as bad as the humans that actively participate in their oppression.

/implying that humans should let the Dalish claim lands because they are Dalish, no other reason.

They should let them claim land because everyone deserves a safe place they can call home.

/implying that Templars only take elven children.

I implied nothing of the kind, but mage children hold particular significance to Dalish culture and taking them away is not only a gross violation of their personal rights, but an act of oppression against an entire culture.

/implying that elves are attacked in the streets all the time more than anyone else.

We are outright told that any attempt by a city elf to move out of the alienage is inevitably met with violence.

/implying this is second class citizens always have genocide committed against them.

This sentence is gibberish, I suggest rewriting.

/implying that the City Elves didn't choose to be followers of Andraste

They certainly aren't being given any other option. They're kept entirely ignorant of their heritage and traditional faith, and the only way to learn anything about it is to run away and hope to find a Dalish clan to live with.

/implying that religion and a small percentage of children lead to a species existence.

Also gibberish. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

[Br3admax]

There aren't enough facepalms in the universe for the nonsense that you babble.

Modifié par Br3ad, 28 septembre 2013 - 03:24 .

[Br3admax]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Actually, Ashalle of Merrill's clan remained in Ferelden to manage the Dalish Boon, as per Mary Kirby. And Zathrien/Lanaya's clan might be living there also, for all we know.

Also, if the Dalish Boon was granted, if Hawke takes Merrill along to visit Alistair, this exchange occurs:

Merrill: We... we heard the Dalish were given land in
Ferelden. Is it true?

Alistair: Yes. I wish I could say that went better.

Merrill: Why? What happened?

Alistair: It's... a long story. I intend to make it up to your people, however. I owe an old friend of mine too much to do otherwise.

Obvious implication: humans ****ed the elves over. Again.

Dude, that's what I said, they totally just left Ashalle there.  Not the Keeper.  Not the person who is supposed to be managing the damn thing, just some random woman who was not indicated to have leadership abilities nor communication abilities for other clans.  Good planning there. :/

Please, it's ****ing Alistar.  He's probably sad they don't have cheese there.

Thank goodness the City Elves still have a Bann 2/3 of the time.

I'm inclined to agree. 

[BlueMagitek]

Don't worry too much about Plaintiff, Br3ad, he gets like this sometimes.

Anyway, Plaintiff, when you have such wonderful Dalish greeters as the one in DA:O, why on earth would anyone, much less a City Elf, ever want to be near those savages?

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Dude, that's what I said, they totally just left Ashalle there.  Not the Keeper.  Not the person who is supposed to be managing the damn thing, just some random woman who was not indicated to have leadership abilities nor communication abilities for other clans.  Good planning there. :/

Ashalle is an elder, she's more than qualified. She's not the only elf living there, there might be whole other clans there. The land was not vacant. ANd even if it was, leaving your house, even for years at a time, does not entitle other people to just move in.

Please, it's ****ing Alistar.  He's probably sad they don't have cheese there.

Herp derp.

Thank goodness the City Elves still have a Bann 2/3 of the time.

Who gives a **** about that? Epilogue slides make it clear that the elves are no more protected against human bigotry than they were previously. Plus, there's still the thousands of elves being oppressed in every other country.

Besides, it's not even true. Shianni is murdered if made Bann. Soris is forced to leave the country if made Bann. The City Elf Warden disappears if made Bann. No successors are named. There is no City Elf Bann.

[Plaintiff]

Br3ad wrote...

There aren't enough facepalms in the universe for the nonsense that you babble.

Rich words coming from someone who can't even be counted on to form a cogent sentence.

[Br3admax]

I'm well acquainted with him. Even if I were not, it's very obvious from the two posts above what type of person he is. If anything, "gets like this sometimes" is an understatement.

Modifié par Br3ad, 28 septembre 2013 - 03:35 .

[BlueMagitek]

Plaintiff wrote...

Ashalle is an elder, she's more than qualified. She's not the only elf living there, there might be whole other clans there. The land was not vacant. ANd even if it was, leaving your house, even for years at a time, does not entitle other people to just move in..

Herp derp.

Who gives a **** about that? Epilogue slides make it clear that the elves are no more protected against human bigotry than they were previously. Plus, there's still the thousands of elves being oppressed in every other country.

Besides, it's not even true. Shianni is murdered if made Bann. Soris is forced to leave the country if made Bann. The City Elf Warden disappears if made Bann. No successors are named. There is no City Elf Bann.

Being an Elder makes you qualified now?  How?  It just means she's old and respected.  That indicates nothing about the quality of her skills.

Oh, and you know what, I'm tired of this assumption that it's always humans causing the problems.  How about the Dalish, you know, the band of brigands that you're introduced to by holding two random humans at arrowpoint in the first 10 minutes of the game? Or how about the racial vitrol spewed at the protagonist for not bending knee to every Dalish belief at their camp?  You don't think that the violent band of nomads who have no idea how human culture works would have some issue being neighborly?

The land was not vacant?! You mean like the land formerly known as the Dales, except this land was given by the monarch as a gift instead of taken by force?!  You're kidding me, truly.

There's only no Bann named if you pick Soris.

Edit:

Eh, you'll get used to the usual suspects soon enough, don'tcha worry.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 28 septembre 2013 - 03:37 .

[AresKeith]

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

There aren't enough facepalms in the universe for the nonsense that you babble.

Rich words coming from someone who can't even be counted on to form a cogent sentence.

Rich words coming from someone who isn't taken serious anymore

That works both ways Plaintiff

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Anyway, Plaintiff, when you have such wonderful Dalish greeters as the one in DA:O, why on earth would anyone, much less a City Elf, ever want to be near those savages?

Why don't you ask Pol, or Feynriel. Or the city elf refugees outside Amaranthine who stood in awe of Velanna. Clearly, City Elves have great respect for the Dalish. Possibly they admire them for refusing to bend to human rule.

I never said the Dalish were well-mannered. They aren't, and I don't blame them. Manners have nothing to do with being a good person, anyway. The life the Dalish lead is a hard one, and they've been living it for hundreds of years. If every single interaction my people had with humans resulted in my people getting utterly screwed over, I'd hate humans too.

I suppose you think that instead of demanding equality and respect, every minority should just sit quietly in the corner and wait for their oppressors to magically change their minds.

[Plaintiff]

AresKeith wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

There aren't enough facepalms in the universe for the nonsense that you babble.

Rich words coming from someone who can't even be counted on to form a cogent sentence.

Rich words coming from someone who isn't taken serious anymore

That works both ways Plaintiff

I'm not taken seriously by fantasy bigots on the internet?! Boo-freaking hoo.

Excuse me, I have to go fetch a handkerchief.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Pol says a common perspective the Alienage Elves have on the Dalish is that they are savage bandits.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 28 septembre 2013 - 03:44 .

[ScarMK]

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm not taken seriously by fantasy bigots on the internet?! Boo-freaking hoo.

Excuse me, I have to go fetch a handkerchief.

He said bigots!

*Takes a shot*

[Br3admax]

Nope, I love everybody. Guess you were very unsurprisingly wrong. Again.

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Ashalle is an elder, she's more than qualified. She's not the only elf living there, there might be whole other clans there. The land was not vacant. ANd even if it was, leaving your house, even for years at a time, does not entitle other people to just move in..

Herp derp.

Who gives a **** about that? Epilogue slides make it clear that the elves are no more protected against human bigotry than they were previously. Plus, there's still the thousands of elves being oppressed in every other country.

Besides, it's not even true. Shianni is murdered if made Bann. Soris is forced to leave the country if made Bann. The City Elf Warden disappears if made Bann. No successors are named. There is no City Elf Bann.

Being an Elder makes you qualified now?  How?  It just means she's old and respected.  That indicates nothing about the quality of her skills.

Oh, and you know what, I'm tired of this assumption that it's always humans causing the problems.  How about the Dalish, you know, the band of brigands that you're introduced to by holding two random humans at arrowpoint in the first 10 minutes of the game? Or how about the racial vitrol spewed at the protagonist for not bending knee to every Dalish belief at their camp?  You don't think that the violent band of nomads who have no idea how human culture works would have some issue being neighborly?

The land was not vacant?! You mean like the land formerly known as the Dales, except this land was given by the monarch as a gift instead of taken by force?!  You're kidding me, truly.

There's only no Bann named if you pick Soris.

Edit:

Eh, you'll get used to the usual suspects soon enough, don'tcha worry.

I never said the elves should be given the Dales. But if you ever actually read my arguments instead of building strawmen, you'd already know that.

[Plaintiff]

Br3ad wrote...

Nope, I love everybody. Guess you were very unsurprisingly wrong. Again.

I wasn't addressing you, genius.

But bigots never think they're bigots, so claiming not to be one means nothing.

[BlueMagitek]

Plaintiff wrote...

Why don't you ask Pol, or Feynriel. Or the city elf refugees outside Amaranthine who stood in awe of Velanna. Clearly, City Elves have great respect for the Dalish. Possibly they admire them for refusing to bend to human rule.

I never said the Dalish were well-mannered. They aren't, and I don't blame them. Manners have nothing to do with being a good person, anyway. The life the Dalish lead is a hard one, and they've been living it for hundreds of years. If every single interaction my people had with humans resulted in my people getting utterly screwed over, I'd hate humans too.

I suppose you think that instead of demanding equality and respect, every minority should just sit quietly in the corner and wait for their oppressors to magically change their minds.

Or because they're healthy, strong elves.  Tends to happen when you don't live in a slum.  If anything, the Dalish seemed to be seen as myths more than anything, if I'm remembering the CE beginning right.  Certainly remember my CE Warden's disillusionment upon actually meeting them though.  Yeesh.

So, with that in mind, you automatically assumed it was the humans who made the error, and not the ill mannered, racist Dalish.  Okay.

Hmm, is that a herring, an ad hominem, no, no, I think it is a bulverism argument.  Or maybe a combination of the above.  Good try though.