1256 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

You were addressing the collectiveness of everyone. If you are going to insult me, can you at least make sense while you do it?

[BlueMagitek]

Plaintiff wrote...

I never said the elves should be given the Dales. But if you ever actually read my arguments instead of building strawmen, you'd already know that.

This is an open forum, so my post isn't soley to you.  Good job ignoring the rest of it though.

[Heimdall]

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Nope, I love everybody. Guess you were very unsurprisingly wrong. Again.

I wasn't addressing you, genius.

But bigots never think they're bigots, so claiming not to be one means nothing.

Not believing the elves are entirely innocent or owed any suffering on the part of humans isn't being a bigot.

[Plaintiff]

Br3ad wrote...

You were addressing the collectiveness of everyone. If you are going to insult me, can you at least make sense while you do it?

Yes, even when I'm clearly talking to other people, in my head I'm speaking to you.

I just can't stop thinking about you, Br3ad. It's an obsession, really.

[BlueMagitek]

Totes cool, Br3ad seems like a decent guy so far.

[AresKeith]

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Nope, I love everybody. Guess you were very unsurprisingly wrong. Again.

I wasn't addressing you, genius.

But bigots never think they're bigots, so claiming not to be one means nothing.

So your being a bigot? 

[Plaintiff]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Nope, I love everybody. Guess you were very unsurprisingly wrong. Again.

I wasn't addressing you, genius.

But bigots never think they're bigots, so claiming not to be one means nothing.

Not believing the elves are entirely innocent or owed any suffering on the part of humans isn't being a bigot.

Brushing off the suffering of the elves, and claiming they have no right to be upset or demand restitution, is.

Condemning the elves for fighting back against humans, while handwaving the violence enacted by humans agaianst the elves, is.

And that's what's going on in this thread right now.

[Plaintiff]

AresKeith wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Nope, I love everybody. Guess you were very unsurprisingly wrong. Again.

I wasn't addressing you, genius.

But bigots never think they're bigots, so claiming not to be one means nothing.

So your being a bigot?

I do my best to not be prejudiced ****, but I have my failings, just like everyone else. The difference is I try to make corrections, instead of wallowing in my hate and screeching that I'm justified because reasons.

[Br3admax]

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

You were addressing the collectiveness of everyone. If you are going to insult me, can you at least make sense while you do it?

Yes, even when I'm clearly talking to other people, in my head I'm speaking to you.

I just can't stop thinking about you, Br3ad. It's an obsession, really.

I tend to have that effect on people. I'm kind of a big deal, you know. You sure seem to keep hunting for my posts, so I guess I got you too. 

[Heimdall]

Plaintiff wrote...

Brushing off the suffering of the elves, and claiming they have no right to be upset or demand restitution, is.

Condemning the elves for fighting back against humans, while handwaving the violence enacted by humans agaianst the elves, is.

And that's what's going on in this thread right now.

Depends on the demands.  Just because they were uprooted gives them no right to do the same to others.

Violence by humans against elves is no more heinous than the violence some elves visit upon humans.  Neither is excusable, and one certainly does not justify the other.

[Steelcan]

Is Plantiff demanding.....equality?

[Steelcan]

Plaintiff wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Nope, I love everybody. Guess you were very unsurprisingly wrong. Again.

I wasn't addressing you, genius.

But bigots never think they're bigots, so claiming not to be one means nothing.

So your being a bigot?

I do my best to not be prejudiced ****, but I have my failings, just like everyone else. The difference is I try to make corrections, instead of wallowing in my hate and screeching that I'm justified because reasons.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Brushing off the suffering of the elves, and claiming they have no right to be upset or demand restitution, is.

Condemning the elves for fighting back against humans, while handwaving the violence enacted by humans agaianst the elves, is.

And that's what's going on in this thread right now.

Depends on the demands.  Just because they were uprooted gives them no right to do the same to others.

Violence by humans against elves is no more heinous than the violence some elves visit upon humans.  Neither is excusable, and one certainly does not justify the other.

yey when we clarified that humans were violent against elves can we agree that elves can be violent against humans and doesn't make them less "right" that humans so let them be violent?

[BlueMagitek]

You realize that suffering isn't limited to the elves, right? That there are more than just Dalish elves? That from all accounts the Dalish haven't actually done anything to remedy their situation other than just wander aimlessly since the Dales were lost?

My heart goes out to the City Elves, truly. They face poverty and racial difficulties and deserve more. But almost any time a discussion about elves come up, it's quickly populated by how they need a homeland of their own, how they need the Dales back, rediscover their immortality. Bleh. That might be fine, but it doesn't address every elf in every alienage. It'd be a Long Walk all over again. The City Elves need some form of representation, and the CE Boon was a step in the right direction. It's a pity what happened, but sometimes all you need is a spark to embolden the downtrodden, and that certainly doesn't come from the Dalish.

Is it easy? No. But humans aren't going away. Unless the elves leave Thedas to some uninhabited island, they aren't getting away from humans. Especially not if they act like the elves of the Dales did. Isolationism and xenophobia only ends poorly for them.

And all this "Well humans are cruel to elves!" Some humans, yeah. You have others who don't mind elves, or even identify with their plight (these tend to be the lower class humans). Yes, purges are terrible, but I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of humans, who you are more than happy to see as a part of the problem, have had nothing to do with it.

Ah well, I wash my hands of this topic for now.

Ya'll have a great day!

[LobselVith8]

 [quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Anti-elven sentiment has existed for centuries, and even elven heroes haven't changed the way humans see the elven people. That isn't going to change if the elves choose to do nothing to change their plight.[/quote]


I wasn't referring specifically to the state things are now but general attitude elves need to take to survive in Thedas, whether they establish a state of their own somewhere or not. I didn't mean to say that elves need to accept being servants or second class citizens, but that they can't pretend that humans aren't politcally important. [/quote]

Most humans don't accept elves as anything but servants and second class citizens; Andrastians belittle non-Andrastians as heathens. The Inquisitor is the wild card here that I think could be an important factor, given the unique role in closing the tears and establishing ties across the war torn continent that is now being ravaged by demons and other horrors from the Fade.


[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...


Your "alternative" is the same attitude that lead to the events that ultimately led them down the road to the falls of the Dales and possibly Arlathan. There were many different factors in both cases but the elves apparently very self absorbed insular perspective contributed in the second and probably the first catastrophe the elves suffered. [/quote]


Refusing to capitulate to the Chantry of Andraste or the Orlesian Empire doesn't make the elves self-absorbed.


[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...


Second, just because there is an elven rebellion in Orlais that you want to support, doesn't mean you actually can. Or even necessarily that the rebellion will still be going on by the time the game starts. [/quote]


Siding with the elves could be a possibility. I certainly find it more interesting than siding with Celene or Gaspard.


[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...


Making anti-elven sentiment worse is going to doom elven prospects for a better life. Things might be bad now but ethnic cleansing of human settlments is going to make things much worse for the elves, especially in the long run. [/quote]

Humans are never going to he happy with an elven kingdom where the Maker isn't a mandatory religion for the people, and where elves would have real power. I don't see any reason for the racist views of the Andrastians to dictate the future of the elves. I'd rather try to carve out a real future for the elves, even if it upsets some humans. Enough is enough. I don't think an independent Dales would doom the elves, especially if they had the support of the new Inquisition.


[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...


The Dales weren't popular with humans for expelling Chantry missionaries. But they likely provoked much more anger by just standing by while darkspawn burned nearby Montismmard. And after the humans believed the elves were making human sacrifices out of the inhabitants of a defenseless village (true or not) they are driven into a frenzy strong into to fight a 10 year holy war and crush the Dales alltogether. [/quote]

I'm not sure why they would be surprised that the elves didn't aid an expansionist empire that was forcibly converting people to their religion Look at it from the point of view of the Emerald Knights: why help an enemy that wants to conquer you and destroy you? I'm sure the templar incursion didn't help matters, if the Dalish historical account is accurate.


[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...


Things can still be worse for them than they are now in any number of ways. As any escaped Tevinter slave could probably attest to. [/quote]


Mass murder, violence, rape. Being limited to impoverished slums and roles of servitude. Andrastians seeing elves as less than people. Things are bad enough for the elves as it is in the Andrastian kingdoms. That's sufficient enough for me to oppose the status quo and endorse an independent elven kingdom.


[quote]cjones91 wrote... 

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...


Except they aren't really natives..the Orlesians did'nt discover the Dales and they were'nt the first ones to settle there.The Dales were given to the elves for their help against Tevinter so that land is rightfully theirs.The Orlesians are just squatters as far as I'm concerned.[/quote]


After nearly a thousand years? They aren't squatters. That's their home. And Seeing as the Dales were granted to the  elves by Maferath from the territory he controlled, the elves aren't the "real" natives either. [/quote]

Maferath and Andraste's sons gave the land to the elves because Shartan and his people fought Tevinter alongside Andraste and her people. It might hold the promise of giving the elves security, equality, religious freedom, and a land to call their own - things that have been denied to them for countless centuries in the Andrastian kingdoms. I don't see why the elves should continue to suffer while under the boot of human rule.


[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

With the Mage-Templar War across Thedas and the civil war in Orlais, I don't think the world is in a position to usurp control of an independent Dales from the elves, if a rebellion can emancipate the kingdom from Orlesian rule. And this is assuming the suspected elven rebellion in the Dales is focused on dislodging the Orlesians from power over the conquered elven kingdom. [/quote]

Even assuming this is true now, (which is still highly questionable) that won't be true later. Especially since elves are not going to be immune from all the instability ravaging the world, and especially in a territory they just conquered, possibly at great cost. The original Dales existed for nearly 300 years, you think the entire world is going to be too weak to do anything about a hostile elven nation for that long? [/quote]


Because the elves aren't alone this time. I think having a powerful organization that is setting up alliances in various parts of Thedas could factor into a change in history this time around.

[Mr.House]

Plaintiff wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

There aren't enough facepalms in the universe for the nonsense that you babble.

Rich words coming from someone who can't even be counted on to form a cogent sentence.

Rich words coming from someone who isn't taken serious anymore

That works both ways Plaintiff

I'm not taken seriously by fantasy bigots on the internet?! Boo-freaking hoo.

Excuse me, I have to go fetch a handkerchief.

(is bisexual*
*Is called a bigot*

I love you Plantiff.

[Ravensword]

Hey, everyone! Let's play a game. Everytime Plaintiff says the word "bigot," we all do a shot.

[Steelcan]

Ravensword wrote...

Hey, everyone! Let's play a game. Everytime Plaintiff says the word "bigot," we all do a shot.

My liver wouldn't be able to take that.


So i've resorted to posting Amon everytime he mentions equality

[Ravensword]

Steelcan wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Hey, everyone! Let's play a game. Everytime Plaintiff says the word "bigot," we all do a shot.

My liver wouldn't be able to take that.


So i've resorted to posting Amon everytime he mentions equality

Do a shot everytime he says "equality," then?

[Steelcan]

Ravensword wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Hey, everyone! Let's play a game. Everytime Plaintiff says the word "bigot," we all do a shot.

My liver wouldn't be able to take that.


So i've resorted to posting Amon everytime he mentions equality

Do a shot everytime he says "equality," then?

bye bye liver

[Hellion Rex]

Ravensword wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Hey, everyone! Let's play a game. Everytime Plaintiff says the word "bigot," we all do a shot.

My liver wouldn't be able to take that.


So i've resorted to posting Amon everytime he mentions equality

Do a shot everytime he says "equality," then?

Been there  done that. 

[Ravensword]

Steelcan wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Hey, everyone! Let's play a game. Everytime Plaintiff says the word "bigot," we all do a shot.

My liver wouldn't be able to take that.


So i've resorted to posting Amon everytime he mentions equality

Do a shot everytime he says "equality," then?

bye bye liver

How about a shot of water, or are we gonna die from water intoxication?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Most humans don't accept elves as anything but servants and second class citizens; Andrastians belittle non-Andrastians as heathens. The Inquisitor is the wild card here that I think could be an important factor, given the unique role in closing the tears and establishing ties across the war torn continent that is now being ravaged by demons and other horrors from the Fade.

Refusing to capitulate to the Chantry of Andraste or the Orlesian Empire doesn't make the elves self-absorbed.

That's not what I was talking about. The Dales xenophobic isolationism is part of the reason that relations soured with the humans. The Dales intentionally refused to cultivate any relationships with it's neighbours. They also sat back and allowed countless innocents be murdered by darkspawn instead of saving them while they could. Later they went as far to try to destroy a human captial at the height of their successes during the war with Orlais apparently without understanding the reaction it would bring.

All of these actions were short sighted and served only to galvanize hatred from the humans they were surrounded by, which in turn ultimately proved to be their downfall. Even Hahren Sarel seems to imply even in the Dalish version the elves realized they didn't anticipate the humans' actions correctly when he sarcastically laments how "they didn't expect the humans to revoke their prophet's gift so quickly."

And while we have much less information on the Fall of Arlathan, elven history again tells us that the elves closed themselves off from humanity and tried to isolate themselves from what they perceived as vermin.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Siding with the elves could be a possibility. I certainly find it more interesting than siding with Celene or Gaspard.

Yeah and my point is that just because you find it interesting doesn't mean you can. For all we know an elf revolt will be too weak to be of any practical use to the Inquisiton and would need the support of Celene or Gaspard to survive, if it can at all. Dividing up the most powerful nation in Thedas into 2 or 3 or more weaker warring states is hardly productive in combating the army of demons pouring through the hole in the sky.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Humans are never going to he happy with an elven kingdom where the Maker isn't a mandatory religion for the people, and where elves would have real power. I don't see any reason for the racist views of the Andrastians to dictate the future of the elves. I'd rather try to carve out a real future for the elves, even if it upsets some humans. Enough is enough. I don't think an independent Dales would doom the elves, especially if they had the support of the new Inquisition.

Well the Chantry managed to never invade the Kingdom of Rivain with an Exalted March because Andrastians are the minoirty in all the centuries it existed. If the elves try antaognize the humans to take what they want they will lose it. Because humans are more powerful than the elves and their nations rule the entire continent. If the humans become upset by something like the suffering of countless refugees driven from their homes by vengeful rebel elves, they will attack any fragile new elven nation. The elves only hope is to make sure the humans don't hate them enough to rise up and destroy them again.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm not sure why they would be surprised that the elves didn't aid an expansionist empire that was forcibly converting people to their religion Look at it from the point of view of the Emerald Knights: why help an enemy that wants to conquer you and destroy you? I'm sure the templar incursion didn't help matters, if the Dalish historical account is accurate.

Because Orlais wasn't their enemy during the Second Blight. They would be foolish or selfish to think otherwise. Drakon never tried to expand into the Dales anyway. Orlais did not want to destroy the elves until much later. I also seriously doubt Drakon had to do much forcible conversion anyway, the tribes he united in his earlier days were all in the Orlesian heartlands where Andraste's message had already taken root.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Mass murder, violence, rape. Being limited to impoverished slums and roles of servitude. Andrastians seeing elves as less than people. Things are bad enough for the elves as it is in the Andrastian kingdoms. That's sufficient enough for me to oppose the status quo and endorse an independent elven kingdom.

And it could still be worse. Much worse. And it likely would be made worse by going to war with humanity. City Elves lives are hard, but they still go through them with hope and a certain amount of freedom. That wasn't always the case. Alternatively they could simply be destroyed if they  fight and fail and thus be driven to the literal edge of extinction.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Because the elves aren't alone this time. I think having a powerful organization that is setting up alliances in various parts of Thedas could factor into a change in history this time around.

Well, I suppose we can't know for sure until the game comes out but I think you're vastly overestimating the importance of the Inquisiton and the player character. The Inquisition is also a powerful organization in a human world. It's power comes from humans. It exists at the sufferance of humanity. Most of it's personel are going to be humans. And whoever the Inquisitor is will change over time (unless of course the Inquisiton disbands after the game). The first Inquisition existed for a 120 years before it was abosrbed into the Chantry.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 28 septembre 2013 - 05:46 .

[Plaintiff]

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

There aren't enough facepalms in the universe for the nonsense that you babble.

Rich words coming from someone who can't even be counted on to form a cogent sentence.

Rich words coming from someone who isn't taken serious anymore

That works both ways Plaintiff

I'm not taken seriously by fantasy bigots on the internet?! Boo-freaking hoo.

Excuse me, I have to go fetch a handkerchief.

(is bisexual*
*Is called a bigot*

I love you Plantiff.

Being bisexual has nothing to do with being a bigot. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Ravensword]

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

There aren't enough facepalms in the universe for the nonsense that you babble.

Rich words coming from someone who can't even be counted on to form a cogent sentence.

Rich words coming from someone who isn't taken serious anymore

That works both ways Plaintiff

I'm not taken seriously by fantasy bigots on the internet?! Boo-freaking hoo.

Excuse me, I have to go fetch a handkerchief.

(is bisexual*
*Is called a bigot*

I love you Plantiff.

Being bisexual has nothing to do with being a bigot. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Modifié par Ravensword, 28 septembre 2013 - 06:21 .