1256 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

I believe he's laughing at the fact that you think the mage society of Tevinter is something that should be emulated.

[TheKomandorShepard]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I believe he's laughing at the fact that you think the mage society of Tevinter is something that should be emulated.

and is orlais something what should society emulated?
Tevinter is like orlais for mages some have better other worse.
Tevinter is society good or bad for certain groups of people.
I doubt that folks in antiva have good life.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 28 septembre 2013 - 08:06 .

[BlueMagitek]

Orlais is most certainly steps up from Tevinter. Ferelden is steps up from Orlais.

[TheKomandorShepard]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Orlais is most certainly steps up from Tevinter. Ferelden is steps up from Orlais.

now you compare one society to another but mages and orlesian folks would say otherwise.
When ferelden is better place for most groups orlais is better for some peoples as well tevinter.
Difference between Orlais is so that orlesian must hide something (well magisters have also) but point is that even if orlesians have laws they are corrupted and in practice laws are to destroy the enemy even if some idealists belive in them they hands are tied and that is also in tevinter at least alluding to lambert who once was idealistic templar who belived that mages can be free and in tevinter society.


If i had to live in one of these countries i would choose dependent on that who  i am.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 28 septembre 2013 - 08:18 .

[BlueMagitek]

...No, I'm fairly certain that from an objective point of view, Orlais is at least a better nation than Tevinter, offering freedom from slavery and Ferelden is better than Orlais, including freedom from slavery and removing the Chevalier system. Ferelden is also quite liberal in comparison, going so far as to either free the Circles from the Chantry's rule and putting it presumably under their own, giving the Dalish land to manage, installing a Bann for the Alienage, or assisting the Dwarves with their Darkspawn issue.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

not worthy discussion you start laugh when you already have mage society so arguing with you is pointless so i think i don't need better prove that you are biased as hell.

Tevinter?
A horrible, horrible society where mages rule over everyone with tyrany. Slavery and blood sacrifices are common.

How exactly does this prove that if mages were let free, everything would be OK? Quite the contrary.

Why should any mundane ever agree to it...ever?


As for bias... You really are in no position to talk.


Oh..almsot forgot.. You still haven't answered this:
Show me a well-intentioned mundane human child destroying an entire village by accident.
If you can, THEN - and ONLY then - can you claim that humans are as dangerous as mages.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The neighbor of the Dales was Orlais, an empire that was being created through conquest and expansion into it's neighboring territories. Kirkwall, Nevarra, Ferelden - all these nations were eventually conquered by Orlais at one point or another; in fact, Orlais "helped" Nevarra during the Third Blight, and then conquered them right afterwards. I'm not sure why you think the Dales engaging Orlais in trade would have made any difference when it has never stopped them from conquering other nations in it's long history.

From Orlais, you mean. Let's not pretend the elves rebuked all of humanity simply because they refused to open relations with the fanatical empire that wanted to conquer and convert them. [/quote]

Orlais doesn't actually spend most of it's time conquering other lands. And most of the time it does, it can only conquer individual city states. Ferelden was the only other nation state it ever conquered and that was the result of a mad emperor and trechery within the Ferelden bannorn. Either way though, treating with Orlais responsibly was still important for the Dales. Antagonizing powerful neighbors is a foolish policy for any state.

But it's not a war with Orlais that was even the real problem for the elves, its the decades of decisons that caused humanity to hate them, culminating in the sacking of the seat of the Chantry. Anti-elven sentiment became so pronounced that a Divine called for a holy war against them and so many people answered that it turned the tide in a war the elves were at the time winning. [/quote]

The inception of Orlais involved the invasion of other lands. While refusing to bend knee to the religious demands of the Chantry clearly antagonized the humans, I don't fault the elves for that. The implied inclusion of the Circle of Magi by Ariane was likely another factor in the defeat of the Dales, and I think a potential Dalish Inquisitor working to stop the threat of the veil tears can lead to an irrevocable change for the elves this time in history. A free nation for the elves doesn't have to end in tragedy this time, especially if one of their own has a powerful organization and ties with powerful leaders all over the continent. After all, as the developers have said, "In the chaos surrounding the beginning of the game, you’re reforming the Inquisition. Not as part of the Chantry… based on these events, in opposition to it."

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It doesn't mean the protagonist can't, either. You might prefer playing as a protagonist who favors Orlais and the Chantry, but I'd rather play as a proactive protagonist who helps free his people. I think liberating the Dales from the Orlesian Empire so that elves can finally have a homeland of their own - after so many centuries of living under the subjugation of human tyranny - is worth the effort. I could care less about Celene or Gaspard's little war over the throne. [/quote]

What I'm trying to say is that you may have to care, practically speaking. The Inquistion's mandate is (presumably) to restore order to the world. In order to do that there are almost certainly going to be concerns of realpolitik the Inquisitor might have to consider. [/quote]

I think helping provide an independent Dales to a possible elven rebellion in the region is certainly one way to restore order to the world.

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There are a sufficient amount of Andrastians in Rivain that they tried to expel the Qunari converts, and ended up killing plenty of Rivain people who followed the Qun. Countless people were murdered: "And again, when the Rivain Chantry and nationalist forces, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, tried a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves."[/quote]

But as you just quoted from the codex, It wasn't just the Andrastian forces that particiapted in that, it was nationalist forces as well. Both the Rivain codex entry from Dragon Age Origins and World of Thedas cofnrim that Andrastianism was and still is the minoirty in Rivain. Genetivi even mentions that "resistance to the Chant goes deeper than the Qunari War." He even says "the Chant of Light never truly reached the ears of these people," so Rivain has been a non Chantry country for essentially it's entire history. [/quote]

Except people of the Andrastian faith exist in Rivain, and work alongside the Rivain who follow the Natural Order, to the point that the kingdom has a Circle of Magi (to appease the Chantry) and the two sides worked together to expel and murder countless Qunari converts because they followed a 'heathen' religion (which is how Andrastian humans like Cullen refer to people who are Qunari).

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There were different Cults of the Maker; Kordillus Drakon simply nationalized his and imposed it on the people as the one, true religion. "There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today."

Also, the Orlesian Empire had issues with the Dales since Drakon's reign as the first Emperor, since it prevented him from conquering the Free Marches.
[/quote]

But it doesn't say he actually ever tried to expand into the Dales or wanted to destroy or attack them. If anything the "pressures from the Dales" seem like something they caused. Otherwise how would that stop him from expanding into the Free Marches? [/quote]

Considering the lines are addressing an expansionist ruler who wants to conquer everything in sight and convert everyone to his newfound religion, I'm not certain how you interpret that as the Dales being at fault, especially when the Founding of the Chantry reads: "Drakon, king of the city-state of Orlais, was a man of uncommon ambition. In the year -15 Ancient, the young king began construction of a great temple dedicated to the Maker, and declared that by its completion he would not only have united the warring city-states of the south, he would have brought Andrastian belief to the world."

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It's been worse for centuries for the elves; you might be content with the status quo, but I'm not interested in doing nothing if the opportunity arises for an elven Inquisitor to help his people. [/quote]

The simple fact is that a bad status quo is preferable to an action that will make things worse. The Dales wouldn't be "the only safe haven for elves" they would just be a trap surroounded on all sides by humans who'd now be angry enough to perhaps destroy the Elvhen once and for all. And the Dales aren't special in that regard. Cleansing the human population from anywhere would get you the same thing. [/quote]

I don't think an elven homeland would make things worse. When you can be killed in a purge in the Alienage, or you have to live a nomadic life hunted by templars, then I think an independent Dales can be a mecca for elves all across Thedas. In fact, the elven Warden becoming Bann caused the Denerim Alienage to be a beacon for many elves, because it seemed to offer a better life for them. I think an elven nation can offer the same, except for elves all over the continent.

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

It's also worth noting that the status quo is very different for different elves. City Elves' lives can often become miserable, but frankly the Dalish all in all seem quite happy with life. Some may dream of a better day when they can settle somewhere, but especially when compared to what many other peoples can expect, the Dalish seem quite content with their day to day nomadic existence. I dare say that the Dalish Origin features probably the second or third happiest life for it's main character out of the six possible wardens. (Not counting the events of the origin story itself). [/quote]

I don't think the Dalish are content; the fact that Velanna and some of her clan were willing to fight back against the humans who tried to burn them down instead of continuing on with their nomadic existance, or Merrill's attempts to restore technology to help with the plight faced by the People, speaks volumes to me about the fact that they aren't "all in all" happy with life.

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

As such not all elves are going to fight with the same motivation or for the same reasons. [/quote]

And I think there are elves who would want to bring about change for the better.

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Based on what the developers have said, the Inquisition is an organization that can become quite powerful, so I see no reason why an elven Inquisition would have to capitulate to human rulers if the Inquisitior is the one who can stop the threat from the veil tears. And I don't see a new Inquisiton created by a follower of the Creators being absorded into the Chantry of Andraste.[/quote]

Being "powerful" doesn't mean "absolute athuority" or "able to act with carefree immunity from consequnces."

And after the current crisis is averted, then what happens? The Inquisition needs to readjust to fit into the world somewhere. Exisitng to guard and protect the elven state that was built on the suffering of human refugees is probably not going to be a politically viable policy in and of itself. [/quote]

Having the Inquisitor establish alliances with rulers and creating ties other organizations (possibly the Grey Wardens, if the First Warden is vying for control over the Anders, and the leaders of the mage rebellion, who are waging a war against the templars who are hunting them down) can lead to the protagonist leading a powerful organization.

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The religion of the Player Character doesn't necessarily mean it is going to be reflected in the order of the organization itself or all it's members. And after he or she is gone, what would become of the organization? My point about the origional Inquisiton was not that it was absorbed into the Chantry but that it was assimilated into society after it had it fufilled or no longer could fufill it's mandate. I still think the Inquisition will ultimately be tied  to the rules of the world it exists in. [/quote]

I think a protagonist who believes in the Creators and doesn't believe that mages should be leashed would reflect the nature of the Inquisiton by the choices that are made, and the alliances that are forged with other groups. If the Inquisitor helps create an elven state and accepts mages who are autonomous from the templars, then I think the legacy of the protagonist will be reflected in the organization he has created.

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Centuries of hostility aren't going to go away over night, and definitely not if they are exacerbated during the course of the game.

The true challenge for any hypothetical elven state is not really creating it, but maintaining it. Using force will not be a feasable solution in the end. [/quote]

If Shartan and Andraste proved anything, it's that writing a strongly worded letter isn't the solution to bringing about change, or opposing tyranny.

[TheKomandorShepard]

BlueMagitek wrote...

...No, I'm fairly certain that from an objective point of view, Orlais is at least a better nation than Tevinter, offering freedom from slavery and Ferelden is better than Orlais, including freedom from slavery and removing the Chevalier system. Ferelden is also quite liberal in comparison, going so far as to either free the Circles from the Chantry's rule and putting it presumably under their own, giving the Dalish land to manage, installing a Bann for the Alienage, or assisting the Dwarves with their Darkspawn issue.

well taking into account that we heard about tevinter from chantry societs who try point tev as villains (well they deserve but rly as bad chantry claims that?) we heard about qunari various stuff what was untrue they aren
't such bad guys as chantry try paint them but i wouldn't want them to rule for certain.

Yes we have slavery and bad thing doing to them but don't they do that in orlais they don't force them by force but by laws and social situation elves for example most of them is forced to do that because society status.Now we have folks i can tell how they treat them in Tevinter i don't know about that but in orlais they are trashes and nobility can do whatever they wants.Now lets see who have for real good in orlais only nobility and lower clas belong to them and are on their mercy.   

Yes i would say that ferelden is positive country when we compare to others but still flawed and i don't say about utopia:innocent: 

but both tev and orl are toxic societes.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

not worthy discussion you start laugh when you already have mage society so arguing with you is pointless so i think i don't need better prove that you are biased as hell.

Tevinter?
A horrible, horrible society where mages rule over everyone with tyrany. Slavery and blood sacrifices are common.

How exactly does this prove that if mages were let free, everything would be OK? Quite the contrary.

Why should any mundane ever agree to it...ever?


As for bias... You really are in no position to talk.


Oh..almsot forgot.. You still haven't answered this:
Show me a well-intentioned mundane human child destroying an entire village by accident.
If you can, THEN - and ONLY then - can you claim that humans are as dangerous as mages.

Do you want list totalitarian countries?
"How exactly does this prove that if mages were let free, everything would be OK? Quite the contrary."
Ok for who you mean you or mage or maybe mage son?
Orlais isn't ok for elves or non-nobles and is rather bad place to them to live but for some it is ok.
Antiva is rather poor place to live as folk as well but for some people it is ok.
orzammar isn't ok for casteless even non-nobles don't have very good life but for nobles it is ok. 


See you you look on that "ohoh mages are stronger than me and my family kill them all because they are dangerous so they can't create society" i look on that they are more powerful than you and as you said you don't care what they think why then should care about what you think for mages other mages are like non-mage to non-mage. 

"Why should any mundane ever agree to it...ever?"
see you already can see only non-mages part asuming that non-mages shouldn't care about mages and mages should care about non-mages.

"As for bias... You really are in no position to talk."
yes yes you can't even notice mages side only non-mages and mages should listen them because you say that.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 28 septembre 2013 - 08:50 .

[Medhia Nox]

How can we emulate Tevinter? We know only a handful of things about Tevinter.

1) Slaves
2) Magisters who keep slaves, compete violently and keep less apt mages in servitude.
3) Some alternate Chantry
4) Templars the serve the Magisters (a good thing actually. The body politic should get the Templars to protect the people.)
5) They wear ridiculously themed attire (the theme being edgy dark)

It's the same when people talk about the Qun. We know extraordinarily little about these factions. The rest is just headcanon.

[BlueMagitek]

Medhia Nox wrote...

How can we emulate Tevinter? We know only a handful of things about Tevinter.

1) Slaves
2) Magisters who keep slaves, compete violently and keep less apt mages in servitude.
3) Some alternate Chantry
4) Templars the serve the Magisters (a good thing actually. The body politic should get the Templars to protect the people.)
5) They wear ridiculously themed attire (the theme being edgy dark)

It's the same when people talk about the Qun. We know extraordinarily little about these factions. The rest is just headcanon.

You forgot the mass sacrifice of slaves to enter the Fade.

[Medhia Nox]

Oh, no - we'll forget THAT part, cause we're good guys. Don't want to go TOO overboard.

Unless we feel oppressed. Then we can sacrifice slaves.

[BlueMagitek]

Oh, okay. I mean, we have to keep the bleeders in business, or the Tevintconomy suffers.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The inception of Orlais involved the invasion of other lands. While refusing to bend knee to the religious demands of the Chantry clearly antagonized the humans, I don't fault the elves for that. The implied inclusion of the Circle of Magi by Ariane was likely another factor in the defeat of the Dales, and I think a potential Dalish Inquisitor working to stop the threat of the veil tears can lead to an irrevocable change for the elves this time in history. A free nation for the elves doesn't have to end in tragedy this time, especially if one of their own has a powerful organization and ties with powerful leaders all over the continent. After all, as the developers have said, "In the chaos surrounding the beginning of the game, you’re reforming the Inquisition. Not as part of the Chantry… based on these events, in opposition to it."

You seem to be largely ignoring or strawmaning what I wrote. Orlais started out conquering nearby cities to form a nation. But since then it hasn't been unremittingly sending out armies to attack everyone around it ever since.

And guess what? Most other nations are born using force and violence. Nevarra was a city state in the Free Marches that expanded into a full nation state after the Fourth Blight, often by swallowing up other city states. Even Ferelden became a nation in the first place because Calenhad was a conqueror who defeated all the other Teyrns and Banns.

And The elves don't antagonize humans just by existing and not surrendering to human demands. They did a lot of things to antagonize them. I gave you examples of all of them too. do I have to type them all out again?

Yes I know about that interview but I'm talking after that. The Veil tears won't last forever. Eventually the world will have to settle down.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I think helping provide an independent Dales to a possible elven rebellion in the region is certainly one way to restore order to the world.

Not if it results in smaller weaker states all fighting eachother in place of a single strong one.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Except people of the Andrastian faith exist in Rivain, and work alongside the Rivain who follow the Natural Order, to the point that the kingdom has a Circle of Magi (to appease the Chantry) and the two sides worked together to expel and murder countless Qunari converts because they followed a 'heathen' religion (which is how Andrastian humans like Cullen refer to people who are Qunari).

Qunari still outnumber Andrastians in Rivain. The slaughter of the Rivaini Qunari likely had more to do with the backlash against the Qunari occupation after the Qunari Wars rather than just that they were followers of a diffrent religion. I think Rivaini Qunari even have a better relationship with the Rivaini pantheists than the with the Chantry. Even Kont-Aar has a Seer. You're point seemed to be that the humans would never accept a nation that the Chantry beliefs don't rule. Well they don't rule in Rivain.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering the lines are addressing an expansionist ruler who wants to conquer everything in sight and convert everyone to his newfound religion, I'm not certain how you interpret that as the Dales being at fault, especially when the Founding of the Chantry reads: "Drakon, king of the city-state of Orlais, was a man of uncommon ambition. In the year -15 Ancient, the young king began construction of a great temple dedicated to the Maker, and declared that by its completion he would not only have united the warring city-states of the south, he would have brought Andrastian belief to the world."

Because nowhere does it actually say he tried to expand his empire into the Dales, all it says is that they stopped him from expanding into the Free Marches.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't think an elven homeland would make things worse. When you can be killed in a purge in the Alienage, or you have to live a nomadic life hunted by templars, then I think an independent Dales can be a mecca for elves all across Thedas. In fact, the elven Warden becoming Bann caused the Denerim Alienage to be a beacon for many elves, because it seemed to offer a better life for them. I think an elven nation can offer the same, except for elves all over the continent.

It would make things worse if the humans retaliated and destroyed  them. Which they could, and quite possibly would if the elves tried violently  uprooting human settlemnts.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't think the Dalish are content; the fact that Velanna and some of her clan were willing to fight back against the humans who tried to burn them down instead of continuing on with their nomadic existance, or Merrill's attempts to restore technology to help with the plight faced by the People, speaks volumes to me about the fact that they aren't "all in all" happy with life.

Merrill is a Dalish Pariah. She is absolutely not an example of Dalish society at large. Everyone in her clan wanted her to stop and even in the first game Marathari said that recovering whatever lore the mirror could provide was not worth it.

Even I didn't really understand exactly how Merrill hoped to help her people by finally getting the Eluvian to work.

Velanna and her followers similarly were a minoirty among her clan. When she runs into her former clanmates they actually condemn her for being too full of hatred.

The whole experience of the dalish life that I felt like the Dalish Origin provided absolutely made me feel like they have some of the least miserable lives in Thedas. They had challenges certainly but Maharial was surrounded by close friends and family and was free from any repressive domination.

There's even the dalish codex entry about aravels:

"What is wrong with the life we have now? We owe nothing to anyone, we have no master but ourselves, and we go where the halla and the gods take us. There is nothing more wonderful than sitting on an aravel as it flies through the forest, pulled by our halla. We are truly free, for the first time in our people's history. Why should we change this?"

LobselVith8 wrote...
Having the Inquisitor establish alliances with rulers and creating ties other organizations (possibly the Grey Wardens, if the First Warden is vying for control over the Anders, and the leaders of the mage rebellion, who are waging a war against the templars who are hunting them down) can lead to the protagonist leading a powerful organization.

The Grey Warden's singular duty is to defeat darkspawn, they probably can't jepordize that mandate by getting involved in corrosive elf/human wars and the Cirlce Mage rebels are themsevles divided upstarts with the odds against them, I doubt you're going to be able to affect change to the face of the world without aquiescing to at least part of  those in power in the old order of Thedas.

LobselVith8 wrote...
If Shartan and Andraste proved anything, it's that writing a strongly worded letter isn't the solution to bringing about change, or opposing tyranny.

Well then by that logic,  if the Dales proved anything, it's that elves can't fight a war against the human world and win.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 28 septembre 2013 - 10:41 .

[Heimdall]

cjones91 wrote...

How is repulsive to take back your home?If someone kicked you out of your house illegally and move their own family in what would you do?

You refuse to face the fact that the Dales is NOT the home of any living Dalish.  Don't be so obtuse.  The Dalish haven't lived there for 700 years.  These humans have.  This isn"t an instance of someone taking my home.  This is someone taking my distant ancestor's home centuries ago and living there.  Do you really think I would then be justified in turning the perpetrators descendants out with deadly force to take a place I have never seen or lived in?  These people have lived and died here for centuries.  Everything about their lives is based here.

Stripping that away for something they did not do is repulsive, yes. 

[AlexanderCousland]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

How is repulsive to take back your home?If someone kicked you out of your house illegally and move their own family in what would you do?

You refuse to face the fact that the Dales is NOT the home of any living Dalish.  Don't be so obtuse.  The Dalish haven't lived there for 700 years.  These humans have.  This isn"t an instance of someone taking my home.  This is someone taking my distant ancestor's home centuries ago and living there.  Do you really think I would then be justified in turning the perpetrators descendants out with deadly force to take a place I have never seen or lived in?  These people have lived and died here for centuries.  Everything about their lives is based here.

Stripping that away for something they did not do is repulsive, yes. 

Oh their ancestors did it, and they continue the racist treatment their ancestors exhibited.

[BlueMagitek]

Ahahaha, oh boy, really?

[addiction21]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Ahahaha, oh boy, really?

Really!

This is why I generally sit back and laugh at them. Pretty much they want the elves to march out and make the same exact mistakes that put them in the position they are in now.

[In Exile]

FreshIstay wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

How is repulsive to take back your home?If someone kicked you out of your house illegally and move their own family in what would you do?

You refuse to face the fact that the Dales is NOT the home of any living Dalish.  Don't be so obtuse.  The Dalish haven't lived there for 700 years.  These humans have.  This isn"t an instance of someone taking my home.  This is someone taking my distant ancestor's home centuries ago and living there.  Do you really think I would then be justified in turning the perpetrators descendants out with deadly force to take a place I have never seen or lived in?  These people have lived and died here for centuries.  Everything about their lives is based here.

Stripping that away for something they did not do is repulsive, yes. 

Oh their ancestors did it, and they continue the racist treatment their ancestors exhibited.

I don't see why you want to hold all mages responsible for what the Tevinter Imperium did 700 years ago and the crimes of blood mages and the Imperium today by association. 

People should be judged based on their own conduct. 

On a more serious note, why isn't this revenge fantasy aimed at Tevinter? That is the country that actually gleefully destroyed Arlathan, openly enslaves elves, happily murders and abuses them and who knows what else... 

I mean it's enough to make Orlais a candy filled wonderland. Why not retake Minrathos for the Dalish utopia? 

[BlueMagitek]

Because mages, man.

[AlexanderCousland]

In Exile wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

How is repulsive to take back your home?If someone kicked you out of your house illegally and move their own family in what would you do?

You refuse to face the fact that the Dales is NOT the home of any living Dalish.  Don't be so obtuse.  The Dalish haven't lived there for 700 years.  These humans have.  This isn"t an instance of someone taking my home.  This is someone taking my distant ancestor's home centuries ago and living there.  Do you really think I would then be justified in turning the perpetrators descendants out with deadly force to take a place I have never seen or lived in?  These people have lived and died here for centuries.  Everything about their lives is based here.

Stripping that away for something they did not do is repulsive, yes. 

Oh their ancestors did it, and they continue the racist treatment their ancestors exhibited.

I don't see why you want to hold all mages responsible for what the Tevinter Imperium did 700 years ago and the crimes of blood mages and the Imperium today by association. 

People should be judged based on their own conduct. 

On a more serious note, why isn't this revenge fantasy aimed at Tevinter? That is the country that actually gleefully destroyed Arlathan, openly enslaves elves, happily murders and abuses them and who knows what else... 

I mean it's enough to make Orlais a candy filled wonderland. Why not retake Minrathos for the Dalish utopia? 

I wish I had a better example as I do not wish to derail the topic, BUT, it's basically the same reason why Black people and White people have a rocky relationship. When you subjugate an entire race tell them "Get over it, that was along time ago" while simultaneously treating them like crap, It usually doesn't go away over the next couple of hundred years. Im not saying either side is right or wrong, I'm simply saying I understand.

[BlueMagitek]

Oh lawdy, someone's finally going to kill this off the rails, out of control topic.

[Heimdall]

FreshIstay wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
How is repulsive to take back your home?If someone kicked you out of your house illegally and move their own family in what would you do?

You refuse to face the fact that the Dales is NOT the home of any living Dalish.  Don't be so obtuse.  The Dalish haven't lived there for 700 years.  These humans have.  This isn"t an instance of someone taking my home.  This is someone taking my distant ancestor's home centuries ago and living there.  Do you really think I would then be justified in turning the perpetrators descendants out with deadly force to take a place I have never seen or lived in?  These people have lived and died here for centuries.  Everything about their lives is based here.

Stripping that away for something they did not do is repulsive, yes. 

Oh their ancestors did it, and they continue the racist treatment their ancestors exhibited.

And the elves exhibit the same racist and xenophobicaly self absorbed behaviors their ancestors did, it changes nothing.

Driving people from their homes, with no more justification than "Well, long before I or they were born, our ancestors lived here, and we don't like them now anyway," is morally sickening.

What happened to the Dalish was wrong, but repeating the crime on the Orlesians that have lived there for centuries would be no less wrong.

[Heimdall]

FreshIstay wrote...

I wish I had a better example as I do not wish to derail the topic, BUT, it's basically the same reason why Black people and White people have a rocky relationship. When you subjugate an entire race tell them "Get over it, that was along time ago" while simultaneously treating them like crap, It usually doesn't go away over the next couple of hundred years. Im not saying either side is right or wrong, I'm simply saying I understand.

Good lord, just no 

[Plaintiff]

Lord Aesir wrote...
And the elves exhibit the same racist and xenophobicaly self absorbed behaviors their ancestors did, it changes nothing.

Their ancestors welcomed humans to Thedas and taught them the secrets of magic. So, yeah.

Their xenophobic attitude now is a reaction to how humans treat them now. Thanks to the current conduct of the humans, elves have two options:

1) Live in squalor, work as a servant and be abused, or

2) Live a nomadic lifestyle, with no guarantee of shelter or sustenance and, on the offchance that you encounter a human settlement, endure assault.

The humans grind the elves under their bootheels, and you criticise the elves because they don't thank them and beg for more.

Driving people from their homes, with no more justification than "Well, long before I or they were born, our ancestors lived here, and we don't like them now anyway," is morally sickening.

What happened to the Dalish was wrong, but repeating the crime on the Orlesians that have lived there for centuries would be no less wrong.

It's a good thing, then, that the conflict is not about that, but about how elves are currently treated.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 29 septembre 2013 - 02:32 .