1256 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I don't see why you want to hold all mages responsible for what the Tevinter Imperium did 700 years ago and the crimes of blood mages and the Imperium today by association.

People should be judged based on their own conduct.

On a more serious note, why isn't this revenge fantasy aimed at Tevinter? That is the country that actually gleefully destroyed Arlathan, openly enslaves elves, happily murders and abuses them and who knows what else...

I mean it's enough to make Orlais a candy filled wonderland. Why not retake Minrathos for the Dalish utopia?

Oddly, Tevinter discriminates against elves less. To a point, at least. Elves can become magisters and serve as part of the ruling class. They do have many elven slaves, but also human ones.

[BlueMagitek]

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Arlathan

Until they realized that they were susceptible to disease and age, and then SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING. ~_^

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Oddly, Tevinter discriminates against elves less. To a point, at least. Elves can become magisters and serve as part of the ruling class. They do have many elven slaves, but also human ones.

Do we have any evidence that elves are allowed to be magisters as opposed to just mages? Varania says Danarius promised to make her his apprentice, but even if we assume Danarius wasn't just trolling her to get to Fernis, that isn't the same thing as her being able to become a magister vs. training as a mage. We have never seen an elven magister. 

As Fenris explains at the Gallows, being a Magister is more than just being a mage - it is a title. From the DA2 codex we are told:

"Every young mage aspires to be a magister's apprentice because it's the best chance of ascending to the rank of magister themselves." 

It may be there are other prerequisites (like bloodline). 

[In Exile]

FreshIstay wrote...
I wish I had a better example as I do not wish to derail the topic, BUT, it's basically the same reason why Black people and White people have a rocky relationship. When you subjugate an entire race tell them "Get over it, that was along time ago" while simultaneously treating them like crap, It usually doesn't go away over the next couple of hundred years. Im not saying either side is right or wrong, I'm simply saying I understand.

I'm Jewish. I understand the difficultly, because there are groups *right now* calling for... well, what some in this thread are asking should happen in Orlais. 

I see a very big gulf between an armed uprising to force the ruling class to give greater political, social and economic rights and forced relocation and ethnic cleansing. This is where I draw my very, very harsh line in the sand. 

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Oddly, Tevinter discriminates against elves less. To a point, at least. Elves can become magisters and serve as part of the ruling class. They do have many elven slaves, but also human ones.

Do we have any evidence that elves are allowed to be magisters as opposed to just mages? Varania says Danarius promised to make her his apprentice, but even if we assume Danarius wasn't just trolling her to get to Fernis, that isn't the same thing as her being able to become a magister vs. training as a mage. We have never seen an elven magister. 

As Fenris explains at the Gallows, being a Magister is more than just being a mage - it is a title. From the DA2 codex we are told:

"Every young mage aspires to be a magister's apprentice because it's the best chance of ascending to the rank of magister themselves." 

It may be there are other prerequisites (like bloodline). 

The codex says "Every young mage", not "Every young, human mage who comes from noble lineage".

[addiction21]

Plaintiff wrote...

The codex says "Every young mage", not "Every young, human mage who comes from noble lineage".

Can you show any examples of elven magisters?

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
The codex says "Every young mage", not "Every young, human mage who comes from noble lineage".

So? The US constitution didn't say "every white man" is eligible for President of the US, and yet somehow that's exactly what happened until 2008. A society can be oppressive and racist without writing it down. 

Edit: Another example was being a member of the senate in Canada. The Constitution explicitly said "person", and the Canadian SCC actually ruled that a woman isn't a person to exclude women from the Senate. 

Modifié par In Exile, 29 septembre 2013 - 02:47 .

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Oddly, Tevinter discriminates against elves less. To a point, at least. Elves can become magisters and serve as part of the ruling class. They do have many elven slaves, but also human ones.

Do we have any evidence that elves are allowed to be magisters as opposed to just mages? Varania says Danarius promised to make her his apprentice, but even if we assume Danarius wasn't just trolling her to get to Fernis, that isn't the same thing as her being able to become a magister vs. training as a mage. We have never seen an elven magister. 

As Fenris explains at the Gallows, being a Magister is more than just being a mage - it is a title. From the DA2 codex we are told:

"Every young mage aspires to be a magister's apprentice because it's the best chance of ascending to the rank of magister themselves." 

It may be there are other prerequisites (like bloodline). 

Varania actually says that she would have been a magister.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The impression I get with Tevinter is that in general elves have it worse than other human nations but the prejudice their society might have against elves is superseded by their cultural mage supremacy. Soporati, the highest non mage class of people in the Imperium are "overwhelmingly human" but Laetans, the mage class that doesn't have noble ancestry can still rise to power and even become Archons. I don't know if that applies to elves but I would think a mage elf can become important in the Imperium.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 29 septembre 2013 - 02:50 .

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Varania actually says that she would have been a magister.

No, she says apprentice. I will track down the dialogue. 

In the interim, from the wiki we have: 
Hadriana tells Fenris during his personal quest A Bitter Pill that he has a sister and offers more detailed information in exchange for her life. Fenris, whose memories of his pre-slave life have been erased by Danarius, will accept the deal but kill Hadriana anyway. He is told that his sister, Varania, is still in Tevinter and serves at the court of Magister Ahriman. When Fenris asks if she is a slave, Hadriana denies that and tells him Varania is a servant. Unbeknown to Fenris, she is also a mage trying to be taken into apprenticeship with one of the Tevinter Magisters. Varania and Fenris grew up together in Tevinter, however Fenris does not remember.
Varania is used to lure Fenris into a trap set by his former master Danarius. The magister promised her that if she would help him capture her brother, he would make her his apprentice. Fenris can either kill her or let her go. Note that if you are romancing Fenris successfully there will be another option: when he says he has no one, Hawke can be given the option to say "You have me."

Modifié par In Exile, 29 septembre 2013 - 02:49 .

[Plaintiff]

addiction21 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The codex says "Every young mage", not "Every young, human mage who comes from noble lineage".

Can you show any examples of elven magisters?

I never said there were any. I said the current information given does not rule out the possibility.

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Varania actually says that she would have been a magister.

No, she says apprentice. I will track down the dialogue. 

No need.



0:23. "I would have been a magister."

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 septembre 2013 - 02:49 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

So, basically, the elven position on this debate is "Yes, placing the Dales back in elven hands would mean the mass murders, torture and rape of thousands of humans but that is ok because it will help elves and the humans totally have it coming anyway."

Lovely.

Meh, that's not going to be my position.

The only way fighting Orlais would be justified is if Orlais instigated a new war against the Elves, and even then, the Elves should not commit war crimes.

Sours PR and all that. If they acted like... say... Saladin (what I know of him, anyway) this would be a good step to promoting some sort of new level of interaction between the two societies.

Should the Dales be returned to the Elves? IMO, yes. Should it be done by force? Only if force is truly necessary.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 septembre 2013 - 02:51 .

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...

I never said there were any. I said the current information given does not rule out the possibility.

And I didn't say it was ruled out. I just asked if we had any evidence of elven magisters to draw any conclusions about whether or not Tevinter is less racist about elven mages vs. elves in general compared with Ferelden or Orlais. 

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
The codex says "Every young mage", not "Every young, human mage who comes from noble lineage".

So? The US constitution didn't say "every white man" is eligible for President of the US, and yet somehow that's exactly what happened until 2008. A society can be oppressive and racist without writing it down. 

Edit: Another example was being a member of the senate in Canada. The Constitution explicitly said "person", and the Canadian SCC actually ruled that a woman isn't a person to exclude women from the Senate.

Sure, but do you have the codex entry regarding the ruling of the Tevinter senate that elves cannot legally be 'mages'?

And if there is such a law, or even just an unwritten rule, why would Varania, a woman who has lived in Tevinter her whole life, and is well aware of her opportunities for advancement, fall for Danarius' lie, which should be blindingly obvious?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 29 septembre 2013 - 02:53 .

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
No need.



0:23. "I would have been a magister."

She says: "He was going to make me his apprentice. I would have been a magister". 

The Codex is very clear that being an apprentice to a magister does not make you a magister. She clearly thinks she would have ended up being one, and that's arguably very weak circumstantial evidence that elves could become magisters... 

... but we could also argue that Varania is just engaging in some wishful thinking.

Again, to be explicit, I'm not saying that elven mages aren't better off in Tevinter or that they can't be magisters. I'm just saying we don't really have evidence of it. 

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
No need.



0:23. "I would have been a magister."

She says: "He was going to make me his apprentice. I would have been a magister". 

The Codex is very clear that being an apprentice to a magister does not make you a magister. She clearly thinks she would have ended up being one, and that's arguably very weak circumstantial evidence that elves could become magisters... 

... but we could also argue that Varania is just engaging in some wishful thinking.

Again, to be explicit, I'm not saying that elven mages aren't better off in Tevinter or that they can't be magisters. I'm just saying we don't really have evidence of it. 

More evidence for than evidence against.

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
Sure, but do you have the codex entry regarding the ruling of the Tevinter senate that elves cannot legally be 'mages'?

No, but going back to the US example, there doesn't have to be a legal rule to make it a de facto one.

And if there is such a law, or even just an unwritten rule, why would Varania, a woman who has lived in Tevinter her whole life, and is wella ware of her opportunities for advancement, fall for Danarius' lie, which should be blindingly obvious?

Why would we assume she's well aware of her opportunities for advancement? She was a slave, and then a servant. She apparently has no training in magic (at least that we can see). 

It seems to me that her thinking that Danarius would even make her his apprentice is wishful thinking. Not because she's an elf, but because Danarius is a POS. What's in it for him to do it? He's a sadistic monster. 

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
More evidence for than evidence against.

That's mistating the case, because we have very, very weak evidence for the possibility that an elf could be apprenticed magister, and, maybe, have some non-zero chance to become one. 

Is that a sign of better opportunities than elsewhere? We do have evidence that elves can be wealthy - the elven merchant in the Magistrate quest apparently had a great deal of coin. So having a business is possible at least in Kirkwall, and that place was a racist dump. 

How does that potential for a good life for a mundane elf compare with the mundane elf in Tevinter? Are slaves treated differently by race? 

I think it's just too reductionist to talk about Tevinter and their treatment just based on the possibility to become a Magister when we don't know anything about that other than it's apparently possible, if Danarius isn't trolling. 

[TEWR]

She apparently has no training in magic (at least that we can see).

Well, we know that all Mages in Tevinter go to the Circle and the Magisters enslave them, so maybe she was pulling double duty? Learning magic as a mage while being a slave.

I think it's just too reductionist to talk about Tevinter and their
treatment just based on the possibility to become a Magister when we
don't know anything about that other than it's apparently possible, if
Danarius isn't trolling.

For the sake of discussion and Elven treatment in Tevinter, remember the woman in the Alienage slavery quest that was an Elf? She's a free soldier and she seems to be making a lot of coin (at the expense of her own people).

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 septembre 2013 - 03:00 .

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Well, we know that all Mages in Tevinter go to the Circle and the Magisters enslave them, so maybe she was pulling double duty? Learning magic as a mage while being a slave.

I don't think it works that way. It seems nonsensical. The Circle is an honour - they tower above the mundanes and rule Tevinter. To have one of their own enslaved but learning with them... it seems to run contrary to everything that would make-up a class based society. 

Have we ever had, IRL, a society where slaves were allowed the same privileges as the ruling class? 

For the sake of discussion and Elven treatment in Tevinter, remember the woman in the Alienage slavery quest that was an Elf? She's a free soldier and she seems to be making a lot of coin (at the expense of her own people)

How does that compare with Zevran as a Crow?

Modifié par In Exile, 29 septembre 2013 - 03:02 .

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...
Why would we assume she's well aware of her opportunities for advancement?

Well the other explanation is that she's a blithering idiot who knows nothing about the laws or cultural mores of the country she's lived in since birth.

She was a slave, and then a servant. She apparently has no training in magic (at least that we can see). 

It seems to me that her thinking that Danarius would even make her his apprentice is wishful thinking. Not because she's an elf, but because Danarius is a POS. What's in it for him to do it? He's a sadistic monster.

Well, the codex entry you quoted earlier suggest that taking on apprentices is culturally expected. Why not Varania, if she a) has talent and provides the means for him to re-acquire a prized possession? If he has to take an apprentice anyway, it might as well be someone who can help him in a way that other individuals cannot.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 29 septembre 2013 - 03:04 .

[Ravensword]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
And the elves exhibit the same racist and xenophobicaly self absorbed behaviors their ancestors did, it changes nothing.

Their ancestors welcomed humans to Thedas and taught them the secrets of magic. So, yeah.

Their xenophobic attitude now is a reaction to how humans treat them now. Thanks to the current conduct of the humans, elves have two options:

1) Live in squalor, work as a servant and be abused, or

2) Live a nomadic lifestyle, with no guarantee of shelter or sustenance and, on the offchance that you encounter a human settlement, endure assault.

The humans grind the elves under their bootheels, and you criticise the elves because they don't thank them and beg for more.

Driving people from their homes, with no more justification than "Well, long before I or they were born, our ancestors lived here, and we don't like them now anyway," is morally sickening.

What happened to the Dalish was wrong, but repeating the crime on the Orlesians that have lived there for centuries would be no less wrong.

It's a good thing, then, that the conflict is not about that, but about how elves are currently treated.

And this somehow provides justification for the elves to commit genocide against humans.

[TEWR]

In Exile wrote...

I don't think it works that way. It seems nonsensical. The Circle is an honour - they tower above the mundanes and rule Tevinter. To have one of their own enslaved but learning with them... it seems to run contrary to everything that would make-up a class based society. 

Have we ever had, IRL, a society where slaves were allowed the same privileges as the ruling class?

Is this rhetorical or genuine? If the latter, then...

..I dunno. But I'm really tired, so I can barely even discuss things right now.

How does that compare with Zevran as a Crow?

Probably about the same. Enslaved since birth (or near enough), lived in squalor, chooses an abhorrent lifestyle that can generate a lot of coin, etc.

EDIT: Well, Zevran's not really paid anything. It seems like the Crows provide him with his lifestyle that he chooses, as opposed to him paying for it with his own hard-earned coin.

I remember him saying he wasn't paid anything, but the Crows were, and that the Crows give their assassins whatever they fancy.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 septembre 2013 - 03:08 .

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Well, we know that all Mages in Tevinter go to the Circle and the Magisters enslave them, so maybe she was pulling double duty? Learning magic as a mage while being a slave.

I don't think it works that way. It seems nonsensical. The Circle is an honour - they tower above the mundanes and rule Tevinter. To have one of their own enslaved but learning with them... it seems to run contrary to everything that would make-up a class based society. 

Have we ever had, IRL, a society where slaves were allowed the same privileges as the ruling class?

No, but we also haven't had, IRL, a society where slaves might become rampaging monsters.

Denying education to a normal slave is a means of keeping them under control. Denying education to a mage slave can result in rather the opposite outcome, and endanger many people.