1256 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Ravensword wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
And the elves exhibit the same racist and xenophobicaly self absorbed behaviors their ancestors did, it changes nothing.

Their ancestors welcomed humans to Thedas and taught them the secrets of magic. So, yeah.

Their xenophobic attitude now is a reaction to how humans treat them now. Thanks to the current conduct of the humans, elves have two options:

1) Live in squalor, work as a servant and be abused, or

2) Live a nomadic lifestyle, with no guarantee of shelter or sustenance and, on the offchance that you encounter a human settlement, endure assault.

The humans grind the elves under their bootheels, and you criticise the elves because they don't thank them and beg for more.

Driving people from their homes, with no more justification than "Well, long before I or they were born, our ancestors lived here, and we don't like them now anyway," is morally sickening.

What happened to the Dalish was wrong, but repeating the crime on the Orlesians that have lived there for centuries would be no less wrong.

It's a good thing, then, that the conflict is not about that, but about how elves are currently treated.

And this somehow provides justification for the elves to commit genocide against humans.

If that's what it takes to stop the humans from committing genocide against the elves.

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...

Well the other explanation is that she's a blithering idiot who knows nothing about the laws or cultural mores of the country she's lived in since birth.

Not at all. If you're a slave, and then a servant for your entire natural life, your ability to understand the finer points of social advancement are very likely lacking because of how low you are on the social hierarchy. 

It'd be like expecting the starving humans in Darkstown to understand the finer points of Hightown politics and the necessary steps they need to follow to obtain a villa like Hawke if they struck it rich.

Well, the codex entry you quoted earlier suggest that taking on apprentices is culturally expected. Why not Varania, if she a) has talent and provides the means for him to re-acquire a prized possession? If he has to take an apprentice anyway, it might as well be someone who can help him in a way that other individuals cannot.

Even if we assume that she has talent, it would at the very least mean honouring a bargaining and not torturing Fernis with his corpse. She's a servant and a slave, and it seems that if Danarius - a magister - was going to train anyone, it would be someone with the political connections and wealth to improve his own standing.

It's like any apprentorship - why would you use your limited resource to uplift a servant? Especially when you are absolutely ammoral **** as a human being? 

Again, this is the guy who ordered Fenris to kill every fog warrior as a power game. It's more likely he gets Fenris to suffocate his sister than makes her a magister. 

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
No, but we also haven't had, IRL, a society where slaves might become rampaging monsters.

Denying education to a normal slave is a means of keeping them under control. Denying education to a mage slave can result in rather the opposite outcome, and endanger many people.

It seems faster to just make them tranquil. They'd be a better slave and you wouldn't have to worry about abominations. It's not like Tevinter gives a **** about rights enough to bat an eye at this. We're also assuming this rampaging monster risk is actually substantial instead of mostly Chantry-BS to justify the Circles subjugating the mages. 

It could also be that her talent manifested very late (which happens). Or that the writers just didn't think this through. 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Is this rhetorical or genuine? If the latter, then...

..I dunno. But I'm really tired, so I can barely even discuss things right now.

I'm serious. I'm just trying to grasp for an analogy because my intuition is: slaves are too beneath the mages to deserve standing in the Circle. 

Probably about the same. Enslaved since birth (or near enough), lived in squalor, chooses an abhorrent lifestyle that can generate a lot of coin, etc.

EDIT: Well, Zevran's not really paid anything. It seems like the Crows provide him with his lifestyle that he chooses, as opposed to him paying for it with his own hard-earned coin.

I remember him saying he wasn't paid anything, but the Crows were, and that the Crows give their assassins whatever they fancy. 

Right. What I mean is that as a succesful Antivan Crow, Zevran lives the high life and we don't have an indication that the Crows mistreat him for being an elf. My point being that just because Ferelden and Orlais are festering racist states, it doesn't mean that Tevinter is really the most enlightened when it comes to elves.

[Master Warder Z_]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
No need.



0:23. "I would have been a magister."

She says: "He was going to make me his apprentice. I would have been a magister". 

The Codex is very clear that being an apprentice to a magister does not make you a magister. She clearly thinks she would have ended up being one, and that's arguably very weak circumstantial evidence that elves could become magisters... 

... but we could also argue that Varania is just engaging in some wishful thinking.

Again, to be explicit, I'm not saying that elven mages aren't better off in Tevinter or that they can't be magisters. I'm just saying we don't really have evidence of it. 

If the elf dream in act 2 is sent to the Imperium to Master his powers he becomes an apprentice to one but then again that is a very speical case.

The Imperium needs all the military power it can toss against the Qunari having the ability to stroll into their dreams and learn of battle plans, enter the fade by will and actually kill people in their dreams would make the elf a viable military asset abiet one to put under an extremely short state controlled leash.

So i would imagine in that case you would have a viable premise for an elven magister.

[TEWR]

it doesn't mean that Tevinter is really the most enlightened when it comes to elves.

I agree. There's the chance for progress that most other states don't employ, but as to how likely it is... who can say? The chance exists, the probability is unknown.

EDIT: For the record, Danarius has the same slightly pointed ears Feynriel has, indicating he's a half-elf as well. Would this affect his stance on Varania?

Meh, who knows?

I'm serious. I'm just trying to grasp for an analogy because my intuition is: slaves are too beneath the mages to deserve standing in the Circle.

By and large, Imperial doctrine on magic and mages is more or less the same. Magic must be trained and honed.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 septembre 2013 - 03:19 .

[Master Warder Z_]

In Exile wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
No, but we also haven't had, IRL, a society where slaves might become rampaging monsters.

Denying education to a normal slave is a means of keeping them under control. Denying education to a mage slave can result in rather the opposite outcome, and endanger many people.

It seems faster to just make them tranquil. They'd be a better slave and you wouldn't have to worry about abominations. It's not like Tevinter gives a **** about rights enough to bat an eye at this. We're also assuming this rampaging monster risk is actually substantial instead of mostly Chantry-BS to justify the Circles subjugating the mages. 

It could also be that her talent manifested very late (which happens). Or that the writers just didn't think this through. 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Is this rhetorical or genuine? If the latter, then...

..I dunno. But I'm really tired, so I can barely even discuss things right now.

I'm serious. I'm just trying to grasp for an analogy because my intuition is: slaves are too beneath the mages to deserve standing in the Circle. 

Probably about the same. Enslaved since birth (or near enough), lived in squalor, chooses an abhorrent lifestyle that can generate a lot of coin, etc.

EDIT: Well, Zevran's not really paid anything. It seems like the Crows provide him with his lifestyle that he chooses, as opposed to him paying for it with his own hard-earned coin.

I remember him saying he wasn't paid anything, but the Crows were, and that the Crows give their assassins whatever they fancy. 

Right. What I mean is that as a succesful Antivan Crow, Zevran lives the high life and we don't have an indication that the Crows mistreat him for being an elf. My point being that just because Ferelden and Orlais are festering racist states, it doesn't mean that Tevinter is really the most enlightened when it comes to elves.

The elves really didn't help their reptuation within Orlais historically speaking anyway.

[In Exile]

Master Warder Z wrote...
If the elf dream in act 2 is sent to the Imperium to Master his powers he becomes an apprentice to one but then again that is a very speical case.

Fernis is a half-elf, though, and and half-elfs look (and apparently are) entirely human. DA2 did weird things with trying to make his face look kind of elven, but he can easily hide that. 

[Ravensword]

Plaintiff wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
And the elves exhibit the same racist and xenophobicaly self absorbed behaviors their ancestors did, it changes nothing.

Their ancestors welcomed humans to Thedas and taught them the secrets of magic. So, yeah.

Their xenophobic attitude now is a reaction to how humans treat them now. Thanks to the current conduct of the humans, elves have two options:

1) Live in squalor, work as a servant and be abused, or

2) Live a nomadic lifestyle, with no guarantee of shelter or sustenance and, on the offchance that you encounter a human settlement, endure assault.

The humans grind the elves under their bootheels, and you criticise the elves because they don't thank them and beg for more.

Driving people from their homes, with no more justification than "Well, long before I or they were born, our ancestors lived here, and we don't like them now anyway," is morally sickening.

What happened to the Dalish was wrong, but repeating the crime on the Orlesians that have lived there for centuries would be no less wrong.

It's a good thing, then, that the conflict is not about that, but about how elves are currently treated.

And this somehow provides justification for the elves to commit genocide against humans.

If that's what it takes to stop the humans from committing genocide against the elves.

Ever the humanitarian.

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
More evidence for than evidence against.

That's mistating the case, because we have very, very weak evidence for the possibility that an elf could be apprenticed magister, and, maybe, have some non-zero chance to become one. 

Is that a sign of better opportunities than elsewhere? We do have evidence that elves can be wealthy - the elven merchant in the Magistrate quest apparently had a great deal of coin. So having a business is possible at least in Kirkwall, and that place was a racist dump. 

How does that potential for a good life for a mundane elf compare with the mundane elf in Tevinter? Are slaves treated differently by race? 

I think it's just too reductionist to talk about Tevinter and their treatment just based on the possibility to become a Magister when we don't know anything about that other than it's apparently possible, if Danarius isn't trolling. 

The point is that that's one possible reason why we're focusing on Orlais more than Tevinter. Also, Orlais' atrocities were more recent and the land and cities are still intact-ish, as opposed to Arlathan, which seems wholly lost.

[Master Warder Z_]

In Exile wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
If the elf dream in act 2 is sent to the Imperium to Master his powers he becomes an apprentice to one but then again that is a very speical case.

Fernis is a half-elf, though, and and half-elfs look (and apparently are) entirely human. DA2 did weird things with trying to make his face look kind of elven, but he can easily hide that. 

Feynriel you mean?

And indeed when Elves mate with Humans, Humans Are produced but that doesn't mean that boys blood isn't any less elven.

Any blood spell used on him once they put him in their circle there would reveal he had elf blood.

And that would likely become common knowledge overnight.

Politics dictate everything within the Imperium after all.

[Master Warder Z_]

Xilizhra wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
More evidence for than evidence against.

That's mistating the case, because we have very, very weak evidence for the possibility that an elf could be apprenticed magister, and, maybe, have some non-zero chance to become one. 

Is that a sign of better opportunities than elsewhere? We do have evidence that elves can be wealthy - the elven merchant in the Magistrate quest apparently had a great deal of coin. So having a business is possible at least in Kirkwall, and that place was a racist dump. 

How does that potential for a good life for a mundane elf compare with the mundane elf in Tevinter? Are slaves treated differently by race? 

I think it's just too reductionist to talk about Tevinter and their treatment just based on the possibility to become a Magister when we don't know anything about that other than it's apparently possible, if Danarius isn't trolling. 

The point is that that's one possible reason why we're focusing on Orlais more than Tevinter. Also, Orlais' atrocities were more recent and the land and cities are still intact-ish, as opposed to Arlathan, which seems wholly lost.

Atrocities?

Bit dramatic don't you think?

It was a war and Orlais and the Chantry won.

War is bloody and costly but i don't delude myself into thinking any side in most have moral superiority over the other.

[Xilizhra]

Atrocities?

Bit dramatic don't you think?

It was a war and Orlais and the Chantry won.

War is bloody and costly but i don't delude myself into thinking any side in most have moral superiority over the other.

Genocide. It'll be answered.

[BlueMagitek]

Ah the silliness of it all, positively brings a smile to my face. ~_^

[Hellion Rex]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Ah the silliness of it all, positively brings a smile to my face. ~_^

And here we are arguing over it nonetheless.
:innocent:

[BlueMagitek]

Oh, it's the "arguments" that bring such a smile. There's very little that's funny about the actual situation.

[Master Warder Z_]

Xilizhra wrote...

Atrocities?

Bit dramatic don't you think?

It was a war and Orlais and the Chantry won.

War is bloody and costly but i don't delude myself into thinking any side in most have moral superiority over the other.

Genocide. It'll be answered.

 I strongly doubt that.

Or at least not in the way you intend, beside even if Orlais or the "Chantry" Answered it doesn't restore the Dales, or the Centuries of Lost Knowledge and pontential. No its better to steep the wound and start over.

I personally hope to finally kick the Elves into the grave permantly.

And by that i mean the Dalish.

Clinging to a history of defeat they are a dead end and need to be removed for the future to open up, A singularity is coming. A need for the peoples of Thedas to unite and those who would stand against that will be...pushed aside.

Besides Genocide isn't so high a price when you consider the outcome in history, Orlais became a regional and eventual thedas wide superpower due to that conflict, it united the chantry under Orlais and firmly cemented them through out the world because of that?

You see the world entering an era of prosperty until the Qunari ruin it.

But even their hertical Qun couldn't stand up to the might of the Chantry, They were driven to a standstill and then pushed back inch by inch until they were shoved back to the edges of their conquered territory.

Orlais because it won that war saw the world win against one of the worst menaces to plague thedas since the begining of recorded history. Of course i can see why people would ignore that truth and focus on events of the distant past and somehow cling to the delusion that undoing one of the Balwarks of Humanity you somehow undue some "injustice" against the elves.

Its just petty to me though.

[Hellion Rex]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Oh, it's the "arguments" that bring such a smile. There's very little that's funny about the actual situation.

I agree with you entirely. The topic is hardly smile-worthy, but it's some people's justifications and arguments that make me giggle or smile. Personally, I find just find it amazing that we can debate this stuff on the forum at all.

[BlueMagitek]

Master Warder Z, you and I are of a similar mindset. Get out of my head, bro.

Eluvianix, it's amusing for a while, and then it just gets sad because people default to the same argument. Frankly it gets boring. There was some freshening when it was speculated that the thing that tore open the Veil was a Dalish artifact (based on a scene from one of the novels, if I recall), but people tend to forget about that now.

[Hellion Rex]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Atrocities?

Bit dramatic don't you think?

It was a war and Orlais and the Chantry won.

War is bloody and costly but i don't delude myself into thinking any side in most have moral superiority over the other.

Genocide. It'll be answered.

 I strongly doubt that.

Or at least not in the way you intend, beside even if Orlais or the "Chantry" Answered it doesn't restore the Dales, or the Centuries of Lost Knowledge and pontential. No its better to steep the wound and start over.

I personally hope to finally kick the Elves into the grave permantly.

And by that i mean the Dalish.

Clinging to a history of defeat they are a dead end and need to be removed for the future to open up, A singularity is coming. A need for the peoples of Thedas to unite and those who would stand against that will be...pushed aside.

Besides Genocide isn't so high a price when you consider the outcome in history, Orlais became a regional and eventual thedas wide superpower due to that conflict, it united the chantry under Orlais and firmly cemented them through out the world because of that?

You see the world entering an era of prosperty until the Qunari ruin it.

But even their hertical Qun couldn't stand up to the might of the Chantry, They were driven to a standstill and then pushed back inch by inch until they were shoved back to the edges of their conquered territory.

Orlais because it won that war saw the world win against one of the worst menaces to plague thedas since the begining of recorded history. Of course i can see why people would ignore that truth and focus on events of the distant past and somehow cling to the delusion that undoing one of the Balwarks of Humanity you somehow undue some "injustice" against the elves.

Its just petty to me though.

And yet, the Qunari remain knocking on the doors...

Also, the Dalish are not finished yet. The possibilities of recovering their lost secrets seem to still hold an important part in the games. For example, Merrill's Eluvian. Also, we had a whole freakin DLC revolving around that Dalish artifact.

[Hellion Rex]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Master Warder Z, you and I are of a similar mindset. Get out of my head, bro.

Eluvianix, it's amusing for a while, and then it just gets sad because people default to the same argument. Frankly it gets boring. There was some freshening when it was speculated that the thing that tore open the Veil was a Dalish artifact (based on a scene from one of the novels, if I recall), but people tend to forget about that now.

Which novel are you referring to? I am curious. And I do still believe that a Dalish artifact could tear the Veil. The Mask of Fen'Harel tore open a doorway in Felicia Day's live-action thing.

[Xilizhra]

Orlais because it won that war saw the world win against one of the worst menaces to plague thedas since the begining of recorded history. Of course i can see why people would ignore that truth and focus on events of the distant past and somehow cling to the delusion that undoing one of the Balwarks of Humanity you somehow undue some "injustice" against the elves.

Orlais is nearly as menacing as the qunari. I have no problems with toppling it in the hopes of leading to a more peaceful future... though I doubt I'll need to do the toppling myself.

[BlueMagitek]

Acting as if Merrill, who can be a bloody smear and her mirror shattered, is going to play an important role, is rather silly. ~_^

Edit:

It may have been from that series.  I'm not the one who identified it.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 29 septembre 2013 - 03:44 .

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Orlais because it won that war saw the world win against one of the worst menaces to plague thedas since the begining of recorded history. Of course i can see why people would ignore that truth and focus on events of the distant past and somehow cling to the delusion that undoing one of the Balwarks of Humanity you somehow undue some "injustice" against the elves.

Orlais is nearly as menacing as the qunari. I have no problems with toppling it in the hopes of leading to a more peaceful future... though I doubt I'll need to do the toppling myself.

Don't worry. I think Orlais' a** is in the fire, and it won't be long before it crumbles entirely. And the Qunari scare me MUCH MORE than Orlais ever could. The Orlesians are corrupt to the extreme and the Qunari's technological advancements could potentially overcome the magical weapons of other nations.

[BlueMagitek]

eluvianix wrote...

Don't worry. I think Orlais' a** is in the fire, and it won't be long before it crumbles entirely. And the Qunari scare me MUCH MORE than Orlais ever could. The Orlesians are corrupt to the extreme and the Qunari's technological advancements could potentially overcome the magical weapons of other nations.

Depending on how the novel goes, putting Orlais back together could well be a part of the main questline; under Celeste or Gaspard.

[Hellion Rex]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Acting as if Merrill, who can be a bloody smear and her mirror shattered, is going to play an important role, is rather silly. ~_^

Edit:

It may have been from that series.  I'm not the one who identified it.

Well, if nothing else, I do believe that Morrigan's use of the Eluvian denotes its importance. I think she could do a lot in 10 years with such a device. And she doesn't necessarily need to have given birth to the OGB to make use of it.