1256 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

All is fair in love and war.

Modifié par Br3ad, 29 septembre 2013 - 12:44 .

[addiction21]

Br3ad wrote...

All is far in love and war.

And if you lose in either don't expect any sympathy if you have spent 900 years crying about it and have made no steps to change.

[Master Warder Z_]

addiction21 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

All is far in love and war.

And if you lose in either don't expect any sympathy if you have spent 900 years crying about it and have made no steps to change.

Exactly the Mages have whined, staged insurrection and killed countless inoccents in the past centuries but they expect them to flock to their banner? Not if my Inquistor has anything to do with it they will.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

So is this where I state my firm support of eradicating the Dalish, murder knifing all the mages, and other such wonderful activities?

Because that would be grand.

[Vit246]

Master Warder Z wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

All is far in love and war.

And if you lose in either don't expect any sympathy if you have spent 900 years crying about it and have made no steps to change.

Exactly the Mages have whined, staged insurrection and killed countless inoccents in the past centuries but they expect them to flock to their banner? Not if my Inquistor has anything to do with it they will.

Oh you people and the "sins of the father".....

[Master Warder Z_]

Vit246 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

All is far in love and war.

And if you lose in either don't expect any sympathy if you have spent 900 years crying about it and have made no steps to change.

Exactly the Mages have whined, staged insurrection and killed countless inoccents in the past centuries but they expect them to flock to their banner? Not if my Inquistor has anything to do with it they will.

Oh you people and the "sins of the father".....

Not exactly the sins of the Father when the son is more then willing to pick them up.

:/ Fiona needs to die as much as those Magisters who breached the Black city needed to die before they commited that idiocy.

[In Exile]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
To various extents, yes. The rights of slaves differed by society, but some were entitled to own property, read and write, or even learn aristocratic skills such as art and music.

Obviously, these slaves didn't have the full set of privileges of the ruling class. And this wasn't the norm. But it has happened.

Which socities? I'm honestly interest in learning more. A few cultures by reference and I'm happy to google the rest. So far my google-fu has been weak. 

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Mages Society = Demons Society

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
I'm not against the presence of opposing opinions by any means, otherwise I wouldn't be here. I find them fascinating, truth be told. My positions here are based around what I believe is best for overall story structure. Also, I personally am not my Shepard and would never try to be even if I gained power somehow.

Ethnic cleansing in Orlais will create a better story? I mean, don't get me wrong, the elves engaging in race based genocide could (hypothetically), be a very mature exploration of a very nasty side of the human psyche, and what happens to a group of historical victims who get pushed so far that they feel that they have no option left. 

Modifié par In Exile, 29 septembre 2013 - 06:30 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The inception of Orlais involved the invasion of other lands. While refusing to bend knee to the religious demands of the Chantry clearly antagonized the humans, I don't fault the elves for that. The implied inclusion of the Circle of Magi by Ariane was likely another factor in the defeat of the Dales, and I think a potential Dalish Inquisitor working to stop the threat of the veil tears can lead to an irrevocable change for the elves this time in history. A free nation for the elves doesn't have to end in tragedy this time, especially if one of their own has a powerful organization and ties with powerful leaders all over the continent. After all, as the developers have said, "In the chaos surrounding the beginning of the game, you’re reforming the Inquisition. Not as part of the Chantry… based on these events, in opposition to it."
[/quote]

You seem to be largely ignoring or strawmaning what I wrote. Orlais started out conquering nearby cities to form a nation. But since then it hasn't been unremittingly sending out armies to attack everyone around it ever since. [/quote]

Orlais was conquering neighboring nations when the Dales was still around, so you seem to have missed the point entirely in an effort to defend a faction that you favor while vilifying me for disagreeing with you.

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

And guess what? Most other nations are born using force and violence. Nevarra was a city state in the Free Marches that expanded into a full nation state after the Fourth Blight, often by swallowing up other city states. Even Ferelden became a nation in the first place because Calenhad was a conqueror who defeated all the other Teyrns and Banns. [/quote]

With Aldenon the Wise. And considering what Orlais was doing at the time, I don't see why it should surprise anyone that the elves kept the Orlesian Empire at arm's length.

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

And The elves don't antagonize humans just by existing and not surrendering to human demands. They did a lot of things to antagonize them. I gave you examples of all of them too. do I have to type them all out again? [/quote]

The rampant racism and dehumanization of elves in modern Thedas because their ancestors closed their borders to Tevinter and the Orlesian Empire doesn't sway me to agree with you, nor does the retaliation of the Dales against a templar incursion.

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Yes I know about that interview but I'm talking after that. The Veil tears won't last forever. Eventually the world will have to settle down. [/quote]

While the Inquisitor is building an international army, establishing bases, defeating enemies, and forging alliances.

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I think helping provide an independent Dales to a possible elven rebellion in the region is certainly one way to restore order to the world.[/quote]

Not if it results in smaller weaker states all fighting eachother in place of a single strong one. [/quote]

I don't think an elven state would be weak, given the likely influx of elves (including elven mages) to the newly emancipated kingdom.

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Except people of the Andrastian faith exist in Rivain, and work alongside the Rivain who follow the Natural Order, to the point that the kingdom has a Circle of Magi (to appease the Chantry) and the two sides worked together to expel and murder countless Qunari converts because they followed a 'heathen' religion (which is how Andrastian humans like Cullen refer to people who are Qunari).[/quote]

Qunari still outnumber Andrastians in Rivain. The slaughter of the Rivaini Qunari likely had more to do with the backlash against the Qunari occupation after the Qunari Wars rather than just that they were followers of a diffrent religion. I think Rivaini Qunari even have a better relationship with the Rivaini pantheists than the with the Chantry. Even Kont-Aar has a Seer. You're point seemed to be that the humans would never accept a nation that the Chantry beliefs don't rule. Well they don't rule in Rivain. [/quote]

Yet the kingdom of Rivain capitulates to the Chantry of Andraste in many areas, including the presence of templars and the existence of a Circle Tower.

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering the lines are addressing an expansionist ruler who wants to conquer everything in sight and convert everyone to his newfound religion, I'm not certain how you interpret that as the Dales being at fault, especially when the Founding of the Chantry reads: "Drakon, king of the city-state of Orlais, was a man of uncommon ambition. In the year -15 Ancient, the young king began construction of a great temple dedicated to the Maker, and declared that by its completion he would not only have united the warring city-states of the south, he would have brought Andrastian belief to the world." [/quote]

Because nowhere does it actually say he tried to expand his empire into the Dales, all it says is that they stopped him from expanding into the Free Marches. [/quote]

Except it's a passage that was addressing his attempts to conquer other land, so I don't see why you think the elves are to blame.

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think an elven homeland would make things worse. When you can be killed in a purge in the Alienage, or you have to live a nomadic life hunted by templars, then I think an independent Dales can be a mecca for elves all across Thedas. In fact, the elven Warden becoming Bann caused the Denerim Alienage to be a beacon for many elves, because it seemed to offer a better life for them. I think an elven nation can offer the same, except for elves all over the continent.[/quote]

It would make things worse if the humans retaliated and destroyed  them. Which they could, and quite possibly would if the elves tried violently  uprooting human settlemnts. [/quote]

Or the elves can finally have a home, providing the elven people sanctuary from all the horrors that ensued in the human kingdoms.

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think the Dalish are content; the fact that Velanna and some of her clan were willing to fight back against the humans who tried to burn them down instead of continuing on with their nomadic existance, or Merrill's attempts to restore technology to help with the plight faced by the People, speaks volumes to me about the fact that they aren't "all in all" happy with life.[/quote]

Merrill is a Dalish Pariah. She is absolutely not an example of Dalish society at large. Everyone in her clan wanted her to stop and even in the first game Marathari said that recovering whatever lore the mirror could provide was not worth it.

Even I didn't really understand exactly how Merrill hoped to help her people by finally getting the Eluvian to work. [/quote]

Communicating over vast distances... I really shouldn't have to explain this to you.

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Velanna and her followers similarly were a minoirty among her clan. When she runs into her former clanmates they actually condemn her for being too full of hatred. [/quote]

It was more complicated than that, as Velaana attests to. It wasn't simply her retaliation against humans who tried to burn down her clan.

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The whole experience of the dalish life that I felt like the Dalish Origin provided absolutely made me feel like they have some of the least miserable lives in Thedas. They had challenges certainly but Maharial was surrounded by close friends and family and was free from any repressive domination.

There's even the dalish codex entry about aravels:


"What is wrong with the life we have now? We owe nothing to anyone, we have no master but ourselves, and we go where the halla and the gods take us. There is nothing more wonderful than sitting on an aravel as it flies through the forest, pulled by our halla. We are truly free, for the first time in our people's history. Why should we change this?" [/quote]

Your argument that all the Dalish feel the same way is the opinion of one single Dalish elf, all the while ignoring that part of the premise of the Dalish is gaining land of their own and teaching their brothers and sisters in the Alienages what they've forgotten? You're really the last person who had any right claiming anyone is using a 'strawman' when you pull crap like that.

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Having the Inquisitor establish alliances with rulers and creating ties other organizations (possibly the Grey Wardens, if the First Warden is vying for control over the Anders, and the leaders of the mage rebellion, who are waging a war against the templars who are hunting them down) can lead to the protagonist leading a powerful organization.[/quote]

The Grey Warden's singular duty is to defeat darkspawn, they probably can't jepordize that mandate by getting involved in corrosive elf/human wars and the Cirlce Mage rebels are themsevles divided upstarts with the odds against them, I doubt you're going to be able to affect change to the face of the world without aquiescing to at least part of  those in power in the old order of Thedas. [/quote]

WoT mentions the First Warden is challenging the rule of the King of the Anderfels; his desire to create a precedence with the Warden-Commander ruling Amaranthine foreshadowed this. And if the Inquisition can be created in opposition to the Chantry, to the point of being the only force capable of stopping the veil tears and building an international army in the process, I'm not certain why you think the status quo will be maintained.

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If Shartan and Andraste proved anything, it's that writing a strongly worded letter isn't the solution to bringing about change, or opposing tyranny.[/quote]

Well then by that logic,  if the Dales proved anything, it's that elves can't fight a war against the human world and win. [/quote]

The Dales retaliated against Orlais and the Chantry, according to their historical account. The elven Hero of Ferelden contradicts your notion that elves can't win against a human nemesis by winning the Landsmeet, and Garahel faced an even more fearsome foe than the Orlesian Empire and succeeded as the hero of the Fourth Blight. I'm certainly eager to continue the trend with a Dalish Inquisitor.

[Hellion Rex]

Kaiser Arian wrote...

Mages Society = Demons Society

And yet Tevinter is still standing.

[LobselVith8]

eluvianix wrote...

Food for thought, how in the world did Audacity know that he could use Merrill's Eluvian to leave Sundermount's prison to possess her? Does that mean that demons and denizens of the Fade know what Eluvian's could do?

I think Audacity was simply manipulating Marethari in an attempt to escape the totem, since it would be the only source for Marethari to come to this conclusion (especially since her protests against reconstructing the Eluvian were entirely different in Acts I and II).

[ianvillan]

BlueMagitek wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
You never know. It could help fix the Veil...

Nothing is worth the cost of seeing Merrill a third time? 

I am a die hard Elven supporter but if I have to put up with Fenris and Merrill again I might change sides and want the extermination of the Elves.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
A templar victory means total and willing genocide.

What? No, it means mages get locked back in the Circles.

The inevitable changes to how circles would operate are anyones guess tough.
So a templar victory can end up with far better circles for mages...or far worse.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 29 septembre 2013 - 11:43 .

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I'm not against the presence of opposing opinions by any means, otherwise I wouldn't be here. I find them fascinating, truth be told. My positions here are based around what I believe is best for overall story structure. Also, I personally am not my Shepard and would never try to be even if I gained power somehow.

Ethnic cleansing in Orlais will create a better story? I mean, don't get me wrong, the elves engaging in race based genocide could (hypothetically), be a very mature exploration of a very nasty side of the human psyche, and what happens to a group of historical victims who get pushed so far that they feel that they have no option left. 

I think you've conflated a bunch of things I said earlier. I also am explicitly against just removing all humans from the Dales (less against the idea of the elves attaining political domination over the area, however).

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

My post did not indicate that you were mad. I suppose the yelling bit could be construed as such, but please, every allegation against you still holds true.

Are you jealous because I'm always on the winning side?

Yes you are Xil. On the wining side:



Keep on "winning".

[Heimdall]

Plaintiff wrote...
Their ancestors welcomed humans to Thedas and taught them the secrets of magic. So, yeah.

So unprovable elven myth says.  And that stopped once they started considering humans a blight to be shunned, so yeah

Their xenophobic attitude now is a reaction to how humans treat them now. Thanks to the current conduct of the humans, elves have two options:

1) Live in squalor, work as a servant and be abused, or

2) Live a nomadic lifestyle, with no guarantee of shelter or sustenance and, on the offchance that you encounter a human settlement, endure assault.

The humans grind the elves under their bootheels, and you criticise the elves because they don't thank them and beg for more.

You seem to have mastered the art of putting words in other people's mouths.  I have never said anything of the sort.  I only believe that atrocities cannot be justified and by the logic you and other present, the humans they displace would have equal right to drive out and kill the elves for their crime.  My concern is for the elves as well.  By repeating these crimes they not only sacrifice whatever moral high ground they possess, they draw the ire of every human in Thedas, probably causing the very elven genocide you claim to want to prevent.  They need to find some other way, if this is not to end in tears for everyone.

 It's a good thing, then, that the conflict is not about that, but about how elves are currently treated.

Which does not justify atrocity.  And the simple fact is that the Dalish think old crimes do give them the right.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 29 septembre 2013 - 12:37 .

[dragonflight288]

Kaiser Arian wrote...

Mages Society = Demons Society

Where is the evidence? It seems like Tevinter, which is a mage society, doesn't have a demon problem. There is no in-game or book evidence that Tevinter has the same problems with demons that the White Chantry Andrastian nations do.

[dragonflight288]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
A templar victory means total and willing genocide.

What? No, it means mages get locked back in the Circles.

The inevitable changes to how circles would operate are anyones guess tough.
So a templar victory can end up with far better circles for mages...or far worse.

Lambert made it quite clear at the end of Asunder, that although he told the First Enchanters to go back to the Circles, he didn't hesitate to slaughter them. When a First Enchanter tried surrendering, he was killed anyway.

And two words that prove you wrong.

Red Templars.

[Plaintiff]

Ravensword wrote...
Ever the humanitarian.

A humanitarian is somone who is concerned with or seeks to promote human welfare.

In a world where other sentient species exist, merely being a humanitarian is not nearly good enough.

And no, I'm not a humanitarian, and never claimed to be. I consider myself an egalitarian, and that's the goal I will pursue.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 29 septembre 2013 - 03:28 .

[Br3admax]

Plaintiff wrote...

Ravensword wrote...
Ever the humanitarian.

A humanitarian is somone who is concerned with or seeks to promote human welfare.

In a world where other sentient species exist, merely being a humanitarian is not nearly good enough.

And no, I'm not a humanitarian, and never claimed to be. I consider myself an egalitarian.

They aren't other "species" if you want to be so literal. The fact that they can interbreed makes them just as human as anyone else. Your logic is flawed. 

[Plaintiff]

Br3ad wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Ravensword wrote...
Ever the humanitarian.

A humanitarian is somone who is concerned with or seeks to promote human welfare.

In a world where other sentient species exist, merely being a humanitarian is not nearly good enough.

And no, I'm not a humanitarian, and never claimed to be. I consider myself an egalitarian.

They aren't other "species" if you want to be so literal. The fact that they can interbreed makes them just as human as anyone else. Your logic is flawed.

Since Thedas is not Earth, and doesn't work the way that Earth does, their ability to interbreed is indicative of precisely jack squat.

Regardless, they aren't considered "human" in any sense of the word. Why would I be a humanitarian when the humans aren't the ones who need help?

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Lambert made it quite clear at the end of Asunder, that although he told the First Enchanters to go back to the Circles, he didn't hesitate to slaughter them.

First, he didn't execute a single captured mage; then, he tried to pin the blame for Fiona's sedition on Cole so that he could spare the Enchanters; then told Wynne "We'll put you back in your cages." and then, in his own thoughts, all he ever alludes to is restoring the Circle.
Never, at any single point, does Lambert even suggest that he has any intention whatsoever of killing all mages before or after they rebelled.
 

When a First Enchanter tried surrendering, he was killed anyway.

Have you read the book? Because it made clear it was an accident.

And two words that prove you wrong.

Red Templars.

Not only do we have no idea what the Reds' intentions are, they have been referred to by official source as a "splinter faction". Therefore, a Templar victory doesn't necessarely equal a Red victory.

Otherwise, given the porpensity for mages to become possessed or turn to blood magic, I can just as easily claim mage victory means genocide or enslavement of all non-mages.

Modifié par MisterJB, 29 septembre 2013 - 03:39 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

There aren't enough facepalms in the universe for the nonsense that you babble.

Rich words coming from someone who can't even be counted on to form a cogent sentence.

Rich words coming from someone who isn't taken serious anymore

That works both ways Plaintiff

I'm not taken seriously by fantasy bigots on the internet?! Boo-freaking hoo.

Excuse me, I have to go fetch a handkerchief.

Didn't you just, no more than 5 posts before this one, advocate genocide against humans? 

Plaintiff wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Nope, I love everybody. Guess you were very unsurprisingly wrong. Again.

I wasn't addressing you, genius.

But bigots never think they're bigots, so claiming not to be one means nothing.

So your being a bigot?

I do my best to not be prejudiced ****, but I have my failings, just like everyone else. The difference is I try to make corrections, instead of wallowing in my hate and screeching that I'm justified because reasons.

Okay... Honestly... Now it is just stupid.... As I just pointed out.. YOU just advocated genocide against humans. And now you claim not to be a hateful bigot?

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 29 septembre 2013 - 03:49 .