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[Plaintiff]

Lord Aesir wrote...
You said:

A humanitarian is somone who is concerned with or seeks to promote human welfare.

In our own world, this refers to all sentient species, because humans are the only one.

No, it refers only to humans. The fact that humans are the only (known) sentient species is just a convenient concidence, and utterly irrelevent.

By insisting that it only applies to humans in a context where there are multiple, you give it an entirely different meaning from that which it possesses in our real life perspective.

Wrong. I'm not altering the meaning at all. It is the world that is different.

If we were to make first contact tomorrow, terms like "humanitarian" would become racist. Thedas has already made first contact, with elves, dwarves and Qunari. So the term (if it exists) is already racist.

Therefore such a meaning can only be held from a Thedosian perspective.  From such a perspective it is indeed racist, but that is the perspective you are interpreting it from.

No, I'm interpreting it from the perspective of any reality where non-human sentience does exist, or may potentially exist. That actually includes our own reality.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 29 septembre 2013 - 06:07 .

[Hellion Rex]

Darn, and here I thought we had effectively killed this thread off last night. Who dares to resurrect it?

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
One half of the elven population has no permanent home, no reliable source of food or water. Starvation is inevitable.

We've seen zero indication that the Dalish have any such problems. 

[Hellion Rex]

In Exile wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
One half of the elven population has no permanent home, no reliable source of food or water. Starvation is inevitable.

We've seen zero indication that the Dalish have any such problems. 

Yeah, while not  thriving, the Dalish have shown no real issues finding food or water.

[In Exile]

eluvianix wrote...
Yeah, while not  thriving, the Dalish have shown no real issues finding food or water.

It seems the Dalish are pretty thriving to me as nomads. Not only have they apparently managed to support their population as nomands for 700 years, but they've done it while constantly crossing borders in a world with quite high racial tensions. 

[Angrywolves]

We know there's also some sort of elven revolt in Orlais along with the civil war.
Someone mentioned Arlanthan, probably misspelled, the elven meeting timewise should be close as well.
I think the Inquisitor is going to have to decide whether or not to help the elves.

[BlueMagitek]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

That's what you think. The qunair have their own societal crisses arising. The crisis of whether cookies are worthy of resources or not.

Many have died fighting over the issue already.

Qun help them if they discover turnovers.

[TK514]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Hey, I can't help it if elves love human meat. That's their problem.

I'm not judging, just pointing out that there is some potential for the elves to die out. 

I support human/elven marriage.

[Heimdall]

@Plaintiff

You don't seem to be grasping the idea. When someone uses the term humanitarian to apply in our world they aren't considering any unknown sentient species.  Most people assume no other such species exists and to include it in the common usage of the term is disingenuous.  They are referring to the sole sentient known species. The term isn't meant to be exclusive towards any sentient species, its meant to include the only speaking, thinking civilization inhabiting species in known existence.

In a world with known alternatives, the context changes entirely.  Context shapes meaning.  The meaning of the word gains explicitly excluding connotations and racist implications. The word itself is different. That is the context you insist on viewing the word with.

The idea that the potential for other sentient life to exist puts our world in the same realm as Thedas is ridiculous.  It is a potential, but far from a reality and unacknowledged by most outside works of fiction.  I suppose my issue with your proposed perspective is that it utterly ignores the common usage and meaning of the word.

Though I suppose further discussion gets us nowhere.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 29 septembre 2013 - 09:05 .

[Master Warder Z_]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Lambert made it quite clear at the end of Asunder, that although he told the First Enchanters to go back to the Circles, he didn't hesitate to slaughter them.

First, he didn't execute a single captured mage; then, he tried to pin the blame for Fiona's sedition on Cole so that he could spare the Enchanters; then told Wynne "We'll put you back in your cages." and then, in his own thoughts, all he ever alludes to is restoring the Circle.
Never, at any single point, does Lambert even suggest that he has any intention whatsoever of killing all mages before or after they rebelled.
 

When a First Enchanter tried surrendering, he was killed anyway.

Have you read the book? Because it made clear it was an accident.

And two words that prove you wrong.

Red Templars.

Not only do we have no idea what the Reds' intentions are, they have been referred to by official source as a "splinter faction". Therefore, a Templar victory doesn't necessarely equal a Red victory.

Otherwise, given the porpensity for mages to become possessed or turn to blood magic, I can just as easily claim mage victory means genocide or enslavement of all non-mages.

Finally some one with the knowledge of the lore that has some sense.

And a proper perspective.

[cjones91]

Master Warder Z wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Lambert made it quite clear at the end of Asunder, that although he told the First Enchanters to go back to the Circles, he didn't hesitate to slaughter them.

First, he didn't execute a single captured mage; then, he tried to pin the blame for Fiona's sedition on Cole so that he could spare the Enchanters; then told Wynne "We'll put you back in your cages." and then, in his own thoughts, all he ever alludes to is restoring the Circle.
Never, at any single point, does Lambert even suggest that he has any intention whatsoever of killing all mages before or after they rebelled.
 

When a First Enchanter tried surrendering, he was killed anyway.

Have you read the book? Because it made clear it was an accident.

And two words that prove you wrong.

Red Templars.

Not only do we have no idea what the Reds' intentions are, they have been referred to by official source as a "splinter faction". Therefore, a Templar victory doesn't necessarely equal a Red victory.

Otherwise, given the porpensity for mages to become possessed or turn to blood magic, I can just as easily claim mage victory means genocide or enslavement of all non-mages.

Finally some one with the knowledge of the lore that has some sense.

And a proper perspective.

The Pro Templar perspective involves locking people up just for being born,IMO that perspective is just as skewed as the Pro Mage one.

[Ravensword]

eluvianix wrote...

Darn, and here I thought we had effectively killed this thread off last night. Who dares to resurrect it?

Plaintiff (aka Mr. Genocideisawesome) did.

Plaintiff wrote...

Ravensword wrote...
Ever the humanitarian.

A humanitarian is somone who is concerned with or seeks to promote human welfare.

In a world where other sentient species exist, merely being a humanitarian is not nearly good enough.

And no, I'm not a humanitarian, and never claimed to be. I consider myself an egalitarian, and that's the goal I will pursue.

I didn't know that genocide is a doctrine of egalitarianism.

Modifié par Ravensword, 29 septembre 2013 - 10:11 .

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Yeah, while not  thriving, the Dalish have shown no real issues finding food or water.

It seems the Dalish are pretty thriving to me as nomads. Not only have they apparently managed to support their population as nomands for 700 years, but they've done it while constantly crossing borders in a world with quite high racial tensions. 

They've survived. That doesn't make their state a good one.

I personally think the Dalish's biggest flaw is that they've taken their position as keepers of the lore too literally; they're only hanging on to whatever scraps they had originally, and aren't advancing and restoring their old society because they're too concerned with simple survival. This is why I admire Merrill, and why I believe that it's vital for the elves to have their own homeland: once they advance past the nomadic state again, they can get on with true restoration and renewal.

[Heimdall]

cjones91 wrote...
The Pro Templar perspective involves locking people up just for being born,IMO that perspective is just as skewed as the Pro Mage one.

Depends.  Some ostensibly pro-Templar individuals are really just opposed to total non-regulation of mages and believe some system must be in place if not the Circles as they were.

Ironically enough, the same position is held by some pro-Mage individuals.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 29 septembre 2013 - 11:02 .

[dragonflight288]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
The Pro Templar perspective involves locking people up just for being born,IMO that perspective is just as skewed as the Pro Mage one.

Depends.  Some ostensibly pro-Templar individuals are really just opposed to total non-regulation of mages and believe some system must be in place if not the Circles as they were.

Ironically enough, the same position is held by some pro-Mage individuals.

The issue rises, not on whether mages should be free or not, but how much power those who oversee mages have. I am a mage proponent, but I actually call for mages being in a system where they are required to learn, and cannot leave until they prove they can handle their power responsibly.

My issues rise with the Templars and Chantry's overreach of power, in addition to the blatant abuse of it without any real oversight, alongside with how few rights mages have. Mages should be allowed to visit family members without it being a sentence worthy of death for yourself and your friends. Rivain was annulled exactly because of this reason. Mages shouldn't have their newborn children taken away from them almost literally the moment they're born, like Rhys was taken from Wynne, and claimed as Chantry property.

And I refuse to believe templars or the Chantry should ever have the right to commit legal genocide, so I oppose the Right of Annulment, and I find Tranquility being forced on people absolutely abhorrant.

We can talk about how dangerous mages are, but that does nothing to take away how much abuse the mages go through, something many templar supporters that I've debated in the past refuse to acknowledge....because it is apparantly more important to try and prove me wrong rather than find some common ground. Whatever. *shrug*

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

In Exile wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Yeah, while not  thriving, the Dalish have shown no real issues finding food or water.

It seems the Dalish are pretty thriving to me as nomads. Not only have they apparently managed to support their population as nomands for 700 years, but they've done it while constantly crossing borders in a world with quite high racial tensions. 

They've survived. That doesn't make their state a good one.

I personally think the Dalish's biggest flaw is that they've taken their position as keepers of the lore too literally; they're only hanging on to whatever scraps they had originally, and aren't advancing and restoring their old society because they're too concerned with simple survival. This is why I admire Merrill, and why I believe that it's vital for the elves to have their own homeland: once they advance past the nomadic state again, they can get on with true restoration and renewal.

I agree. They have become too complacement with their cultural stagnation. They spend more time complaining about what they have lost, rather than actively seeking to rediscover their lost history.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In Exile wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Yeah, while not  thriving, the Dalish have shown no real issues finding food or water.

It seems the Dalish are pretty thriving to me as nomads. Not only have they apparently managed to support their population as nomands for 700 years, but they've done it while constantly crossing borders in a world with quite high racial tensions. 

They've survived. That doesn't make their state a good one.

I personally think the Dalish's biggest flaw is that they've taken their position as keepers of the lore too literally; they're only hanging on to whatever scraps they had originally, and aren't advancing and restoring their old society because they're too concerned with simple survival. This is why I admire Merrill, and why I believe that it's vital for the elves to have their own homeland: once they advance past the nomadic state again, they can get on with true restoration and renewal.

I agree. They have become too complacement with their cultural stagnation. They spend more time complaining about what they have lost, rather than actively seeking to rediscover their lost history.

I agree with this statement, but be careful. That can easily be a criticism of Merethari's handling of the eluvian.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
They've survived. That doesn't make their state a good one.

There's no indication that they're starving. We don't even know if there are more or less Dalish among the clans. Given that according to Dalish lore they were primarily (if not exclusively) the old nobility of the Dales, I'd say they've done quite well for themselves in terms of spontaneously starting up a nomadic society.

I personally think the Dalish's biggest flaw is that they've taken their position as keepers of the lore too literally; they're only hanging on to whatever scraps they had originally, and aren't advancing and restoring their old society because they're too concerned with simple survival. This is why I admire Merrill, and why I believe that it's vital for the elves to have their own homeland: once they advance past the nomadic state again, they can get on with true restoration and renewal.

I don't think the homeland will help the mentality. I think that even if the Dalish had a home, right now they'd try to re-create the Dales instead of create an elven nation. Merrill is a step in the right direction, but I think they need far more radical reformers to restore their society.

It's why I personally think the restoration of the elves as a people has to come via the CEs, not the Dalish. 

[dragonflight288]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
They've survived. That doesn't make their state a good one.[/quote]

There's no indication that they're starving. We don't even know if there are more or less Dalish among the clans. Given that according to Dalish lore they were primarily (if not exclusively) the old nobility of the Dales, I'd say they've done quite well for themselves in terms of spontaneously starting up a nomadic society.[/quote]

Well, they keep to the wooded areas so they can hunt. But they in turn are actively hunted by templars and most regular humans. Even if the Dalish Warden allows those humans to live, they still rally their entire village to attack the Dalish clan.

The templars in Kirkwall had no qualms about taking one of their young hunters, and torturing him with fire for information on Feynriel, and the one in charge specifically says she cares nothing for the knife-ears.

I'd say the Dalish are barely ekking out a living.

[quote][quote]I personally think the Dalish's biggest flaw is that they've taken their position as keepers of the lore too literally; they're only hanging on to whatever scraps they had originally, and aren't advancing and restoring their old society because they're too concerned with simple survival. This is why I admire Merrill, and why I believe that it's vital for the elves to have their own homeland: once they advance past the nomadic state again, they can get on with true restoration and renewal.
[/quote]

I don't think the homeland will help the mentality. I think that even if the Dalish had a home, right now they'd try to re-create the Dales instead of create an elven nation. Merrill is a step in the right direction, but I think they need far more radical reformers to restore their society.

It's why I personally think the restoration of the elves as a people has to come via the CEs, not the Dalish. 
[/quote][/quote]

Well...it depends I guess on the circumstances on how they got a homeland. Say they got a homeland in southern Ferelden that is still recovering from the Blight, but is now habitable. They wouldn't have to kick anyone out. They'd be on the edge of the Kokari Wilds, so they'd have plenty of game to hunt, and would probably have, if not friendly, but affable and less-tense relations with humans than if they attacked the Dales and kicked out the humans who live there.

Unless those humans are already displaced by the Orlesian civil war, or were all massacred by red templars.

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Well, they keep to the wooded areas so they can hunt. But they in turn are actively hunted by templars and most regular humans. Even if the Dalish Warden allows those humans to live, they still rally their entire village to attack the Dalish clan.  

The templars in Kirkwall had no qualms about taking one of their young hunters, and torturing him with fire for information on Feynriel, and the one in charge specifically says she cares nothing for the knife-ears. 

I'd say the Dalish are barely ekking out a living.

Again, we've seen no indication of a society on existential brink with a fear that next month could bring the death of the entire clan. Even when we see them in DA:O on the actual brink of death, they're generally pretty cheerful and optimistic and they've got their well developed social structure that's quite enduring and focused on the future.

However rough their life is and however much danger they face, there is simply nothing about their culture, society, way of living or basic psychological state that at all correspondings with this idea of one-foot-in-the-grave as a people.

At any rate, I wasn't trying to say that the Dalish had it good. Just that it's a testament to them as a people what they've managed to do for 700 years.

Well...it depends I guess on the circumstances on how they got a homeland. Say they got a homeland in southern Ferelden that is still recovering from the Blight, but is now habitable. They wouldn't have to kick anyone out. They'd be on the edge of the Kokari Wilds, so they'd have plenty of game to hunt, and would probably have, if not friendly, but affable and less-tense relations with humans than if they attacked the Dales and kicked out the humans who live there.

It's not about the place geographically. The Dalish, at least, want to recreate their past. Even Merrill - who is willing to give up a lot and ignore a lot to achieve her goal - is dedicated to re-creating what Arlathan was. We've never met a Dalish elf who wants something new for the elves - something that isn't re-creating the Dales or Arlathan. 

[dragonflight288]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
Well, they keep to the wooded areas so they can hunt. But they in turn are actively hunted by templars and most regular humans. Even if the Dalish Warden allows those humans to live, they still rally their entire village to attack the Dalish clan.  

The templars in Kirkwall had no qualms about taking one of their young hunters, and torturing him with fire for information on Feynriel, and the one in charge specifically says she cares nothing for the knife-ears. 

I'd say the Dalish are barely ekking out a living. [/quote]

Again, we've seen no indication of a society on existential brink with a fear that next month could bring the death of the entire clan. Even when we see them in DA:O on the actual brink of death, they're generally pretty cheerful and optimistic and they've got their well developed social structure that's quite enduring and focused on the future.

However rough their life is and however much danger they face, there is simply nothing about their culture, society, way of living or basic psychological state that at all correspondings with this idea of one-foot-in-the-grave as a people.

At any rate, I wasn't trying to say that the Dalish had it good. Just that it's a testament to them as a people what they've managed to do for 700 years.[/quote]

Hmm. I thought I remember reading somewhere that Gaider said they are barely making it, and are starting in-breed. I'll have to look it up to make sure I'm remembering it right.

[quote][quote]Well...it depends I guess on the circumstances on how they got a homeland. Say they got a homeland in southern Ferelden that is still recovering from the Blight, but is now habitable. They wouldn't have to kick anyone out. They'd be on the edge of the Kokari Wilds, so they'd have plenty of game to hunt, and would probably have, if not friendly, but affable and less-tense relations with humans than if they attacked the Dales and kicked out the humans who live there.
[/quote]

It's not about the place geographically. The Dalish, at least, want to recreate their past. Even Merrill - who is willing to give up a lot and ignore a lot to achieve her goal - is dedicated to re-creating what Arlathan was. We've never met a Dalish elf who wants something new for the elves - something that isn't re-creating the Dales or Arlathan. 

[/quote][/quote]

I wasn't really focusing on that aspect, but on the social tension on where they set up. It just seems to me that Ferelden is the friendliest place they can set up, and even then there'll be many racial issues involved, many of which will likely be violent.

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Hmm. I thought I remember reading somewhere that Gaider said they are barely making it, and are starting in-breed. I'll have to look it up to make sure I'm remembering it right.  

If that's true, then Bioware has to open up a fair number of books and read what that kind of state does to people and cultures. Because the Dalish are just too well-adjusted to portray it, even if it's supposedly true.

I wasn't really focusing on that aspect, but on the social tension on where they set up. It just seems to me that Ferelden is the friendliest place they can set up, and even then there'll be many racial issues involved, many of which will likely be violent.  

Right, I'm not disagreeing with you here. Though personally I think that the elves will have to force a particular state - and in fact each particular state - to recognize their right to self-governance through violent uprising. 

[dragonflight288]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
Hmm. I thought I remember reading somewhere that Gaider said they are barely making it, and are starting in-breed. I'll have to look it up to make sure I'm remembering it right.  [/quote]

If that's true, then Bioware has to open up a fair number of books and read what that kind of state does to people and cultures. Because the Dalish are just too well-adjusted to portray it, even if it's supposedly true.[/quote]

No doubt. Doesn't change the intent or reality. Maybe the Dalish are putting up an act in front of outsiders to make them appear stronger than they really are? Can't say. Still looking it up.

[quote]
[quote]I wasn't really focusing on that aspect, but on the social tension on where they set up. It just seems to me that Ferelden is the friendliest place they can set up, and even then there'll be many racial issues involved, many of which will likely be violent.  [/quote]

Right, I'm not disagreeing with you here. Though personally I think that the elves will have to force a particular state - and in fact each particular state - to recognize their right to self-governance through violent uprising. 
[/quote][/quote]

No matter what happens, I think it'll be bloody and violent. There are rumors of an elven rebellion in Orlais going on, but ultimately that doesn't change what already happens. Alienages are purged by humans regularly throughout Thedas, overcrowding and disease is rampant, and any elf who leaves the alienage and starts a business usually gets their home and business burned by angry humans who can't stand the idea that an elf is rising above their place.

However things turn out, I don't think they'll be any good or bad guys there. Most elves want a homeland to claim, and restore what they are. Most humans believe elves can't be little more than servants at best. But those humans are not the same ones who destroyed the Dales and decreed they have to live in alienages, and most guardsmen are usually guys/girls just trying to get by.

A decent pay, a uniform, a respectable job, no real expectations...yes, I'm referencing Lord's such and such's illegitimate, untrained moronic Whelp in Denerim here.

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
No doubt. Doesn't change the intent or reality. Maybe the Dalish are putting up an act in front of outsiders to make them appear stronger than they really are? Can't say. Still looking it up.

From what I've read, that's not really the case. Obviously I will defer to the official lore, but if it is official, I think Bioware has to do a better job portraying the psychological impact of this kind of existential brink. 

A good example of the problem is the matchmaker quest you get in DA:O during Dalish questline.

No matter what happens, I think it'll be bloody and violent. There are rumors of an elven rebellion in Orlais going on, but ultimately that doesn't change what already happens. Alienages are purged by humans regularly throughout Thedas, overcrowding and disease is rampant, and any elf who leaves the alienage and starts a business usually gets their home and business burned by angry humans who can't stand the idea that an elf is rising above their place.  

Bloody and violent isn't bad. Sometimes, as an oppressed minority, you have to force the majority to take notice. Civil rights movements in the 20th century - to varying degrees - have amount to precisely this sort of thing. We've had less violence than would happen in Thedas because our society was more enlighteend by this point, but the fact of the matter remained that it took concentrated aggression targeted at the social and political infrastructure by oppressed groups to see any meaningful change. 

However things turn out, I don't think they'll be any good or bad guys there. Most elves want a homeland to claim, and restore what they are. Most humans believe elves can't be little more than servants at best. But those humans are not the same ones who destroyed the Dales and decreed they have to live in alienages, and most guardsmen are usually guys/girls just trying to get by.  

A decent pay, a uniform, a respectable job, no real expectations...yes, I'm referencing Lord's such and such's illegitimate, untrained moronic Whelp in Denerim here. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

I'm not sure that the CEs want a homeland, or see themselves as making common cause with the Dalish. Even if they do want a homeland, I don't think CEs really care where it is if the place is habitable and (relatively or potentially) prosperous (e.g. not barren wasteland in the Anderfells). 

Anyway, my point is that the elves are victims, and they have to make their oppressors take notice. There's a huge gulf between that and the outright genocide that others here seem to favour, but the fact of the matter (IMO) is that elves need action. 

[dragonflight288]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
No doubt. Doesn't change the intent or reality. Maybe the Dalish are putting up an act in front of outsiders to make them appear stronger than they really are? Can't say. Still looking it up. [/quote]

From what I've read, that's not really the case. Obviously I will defer to the official lore, but if it is official, I think Bioware has to do a better job portraying the psychological impact of this kind of existential brink. 

A good example of the problem is the matchmaker quest you get in DA:O during Dalish questline.[/quote]

Ugh, Cammen.

[quote]
[quote]No matter what happens, I think it'll be bloody and violent. There are rumors of an elven rebellion in Orlais going on, but ultimately that doesn't change what already happens. Alienages are purged by humans regularly throughout Thedas, overcrowding and disease is rampant, and any elf who leaves the alienage and starts a business usually gets their home and business burned by angry humans who can't stand the idea that an elf is rising above their place.  [/quote]

Bloody and violent isn't bad. Sometimes, as an oppressed minority, you have to force the majority to take notice. Civil rights movements in the 20th century - to varying degrees - have amount to precisely this sort of thing. We've had less violence than would happen in Thedas because our society was more enlighteend by this point, but the fact of the matter remained that it took concentrated aggression targeted at the social and political infrastructure by oppressed groups to see any meaningful change. [/quote]

Yeah. To quote that one blood mage in "Broken Circle"

Someone always has to take the first steps.

And change is rarely peaceful. It has happened occasionally, even in real life, but it's very rare.

[quote][quote]However things turn out, I don't think they'll be any good or bad guys there. Most elves want a homeland to claim, and restore what they are. Most humans believe elves can't be little more than servants at best. But those humans are not the same ones who destroyed the Dales and decreed they have to live in alienages, and most guardsmen are usually guys/girls just trying to get by.  

A decent pay, a uniform, a respectable job, no real expectations...yes, I'm referencing Lord's such and such's illegitimate, untrained moronic Whelp in Denerim here. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]
[/quote]

I'm not sure that the CEs want a homeland, or see themselves as making common cause with the Dalish. Even if they do want a homeland, I don't think CEs really care where it is if the place is habitable and (relatively or potentially) prosperous (e.g. not barren wasteland in the Anderfells). 

Anyway, my point is that the elves are victims, and they have to make their oppressors take notice. There's a huge gulf between that and the outright genocide that others here seem to favour, but the fact of the matter (IMO) is that elves need action. 
[/quote][/quote]

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that many humans who will be victims of the conflict will be just as innocent as the elves have been.