1256 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra: I'll be fighting the Templars too.

My question was - does Wynne still believe in the Circles.

Not the Circles under the Chantry.

Why would anyone do that? More choices are a good thing.

It's like the Talimancers who say there shouldn't be an option to side with the Geth. It's transparent, it's pathetic, and anyone so wrapped up in a videogame that they can't handle people making choices they don't like needs to find a new hobby.

Well, the divergence points are too large to allow the templars to win completely.

[LobselVith8]

Ieolus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Not against human mages in particular. 

Forget human mages... Elves have a grudge against all humans, and it is justified. 

Some Dalish and Alienage elves hate humans for the transgressions made against them. Merrill didn't take humans for being humans, and she sympathized with the mages. It all depends on the particular person. A Dalish Inquisitor might have such a perspective, depending on how much control we have in defining the main character.

[Ieolus]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: I'll be fighting the Templars too.

My question was - does Wynne still believe in the Circles.

Yes.  Checking Asunder to see what I can dig up now, but it was only the extreme measures of the Lord Seeker that caused her to help the mages in Val Royeux (sp?).

Edit: And her son.

Modifié par Ieolus, 23 septembre 2013 - 03:24 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

What? Some elves hold grudges not only against Tevinter or any other one nation but against all humanity in general!

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 septembre 2013 - 03:25 .

[Xilizhra]

Oh, I get it! Apologies, I don't think I worded my post well. I wasn't emphasizing their mage-ness, but rather their human-ness. Once you have a well-trained and well-armed group of human mages that are carving out the countryside, I think it will be hard for elves - especially poverty striken alienage elves - to not see the mages as another source of potential human oppression.

We're assuming that the human mages aren't all racists, and I don't think if we've ever really seen what the Circle is like for elves.

Emphasize Circle elves as much as possible. And from what I've seen, the Circle is actually the least racist spot in Thedas.

There is no Arlathan to retake. I suppose you could take the forest, but other than symbolism, I'm not sure that's really a better choice.

The physical location doesn't matter as much as the nation's magical power. Perhaps the physical location of the Dales would work, but it might not be the best spot.

As for weakening the individual human nations, I think that's precisely the kind of thing that will make any human mage balk. "Let's weaken your species so that in an eventual elf vs. human interspecies conflict, elves have the advantage. How does that sound to you, exclusively human mages?"

If the Circle can act as an independent nation, let it be the strongest, and preferably species-neutral.

All in all, I think it's much more likely that in an elf mundane vs. human mundane war, that the human mages would make common cause with humans. Which is why it would be a bad idea for the elves to get involved with human mages (wearing my elf sympathizer hat now).

It's worth noting, but I'd rather not have to triage one side.

[Gwydden]

Why is there people that assume that shoud it come to war, the dalish and the city elves would band together? Their very different groups who absolutely despise each other.

[wcholcombe]

No she was still pro circle, the actions of the grand enchanter and the head of the templars forced her into a position of having to choose a side.

[Xilizhra]

Why is there people that assume that shoud it come to war, the dalish and the city elves would band together? Their very different groups who absolutely despise each other.

They don't despise each other, just don't quite trust each other. They like each other more than they do humans, certainly.

[Ozzy]

Ieolus wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: I'll be fighting the Templars too.

My question was - does Wynne still believe in the Circles.

Yes.  Checking Asunder to see what I can dig up now, but it was only the extreme measures of the Lord Seeker that caused her to help the mages in Val Royeux (sp?).

Edit: And her son.

Extreme measures brought to the forefront due to the machinations of an opportunistic mage. 

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...
If the Circle can act as an independent nation, let it be the strongest, and preferably species-neutral.

And if a war between humans and elves comes to happen, who do you think human mages and elven mages will support?

[Xilizhra]

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
If the Circle can act as an independent nation, let it be the strongest, and preferably species-neutral.

And if a war between humans and elves comes to happen, who do you think human mages and elven mages will support?

Circumstance-dependent.

[Ieolus]

AstusOz wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: I'll be fighting the Templars too.

My question was - does Wynne still believe in the Circles.

Yes.  Checking Asunder to see what I can dig up now, but it was only the extreme measures of the Lord Seeker that caused her to help the mages in Val Royeux (sp?).

Edit: And her son.

Extreme measures brought to the forefront due to the machinations of an opportunistic mage. 

LOL, defending the Lord Seeker now are we?  He is blameless and Adrian is the cause of it all eh?

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why is there people that assume that shoud it come to war, the dalish and the city elves would band together? Their very different groups who absolutely despise each other.

They don't despise each other, just don't quite trust each other. They like each other more than they do humans, certainly.

The dalish elves think the city elves servile and not really true elves. The city elves consider their cousins to be savages who assault trade caravans and worship pagan gods. Whether they dislike humans more than they do one another is arguable.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

As my Inquisitor is likely going to be a Dalish mage, it'll be my duty to find a way to meld the outcomes. Weakening the Chantry and individual human nations alike by giving independence to the Circle while at the same time making a stab to retake Arlathan (forget the Dales, that's aiming too low) would be my preference.

Tevinter mages sunk Arlathan with blood magic, if the stories are true. I think the reclamation of the Dales from Orlesian occupation is a good first step, with the Orlesian civil war and the Mage-Templar War distracting the world. It might take blood magic (and lives) to reclaim long-lost Arlathan.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Emphasize Circle elves as much as possible. And from what I've seen, the Circle is actually the least racist spot in Thedas.

That's true, but I do recall that one mage in DA:O who still felt like elves were the outsiders.

The physical location doesn't matter as much as the nation's magical power. Perhaps the physical location of the Dales would work, but it might not be the best spot.

I don't think there's such a thing as that in DA:O. The real problem is settlement. The elves will need land for agriculture, and a forest is not a great place for it. I think "retaking" Arlathan is a good idea for a rallying cry, and it's something that can have symbolic force for the Dalish... but to the CEs even recall what Arlathan was?

If the Circle can act as an independent nation, let it be the strongest, and preferably species-neutral.

That would be impossible. The Circles can't be a nation. To be a nation, you need unified territory. The mages could come toghether and literally try and rip a piece of Thedas somewhere to create a magic kingdom to rival Tevinter... but the Exalted March against that writes itself. 

From the mage POV, it makes zero sense to try and start a war or conflict with any nation in Thedas. The Mage endgame should be to sell human kings and queens on how much better it would be for them to have unrestricted authority over court mages, with the ability to reign fire and death on their enemies and mind control their rivals. 

I'd rather not have to triage one side.

It's up to Bioware how they do it, but I think the more interesting - and realistic - story is the one that recognizes that we have two oppressed groups who would - depending on which one we're talking about - see the other side as just another face of their old oppressors. 

Modifié par In Exile, 23 septembre 2013 - 03:31 .

[AresKeith]

Ieolus wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Ieolus: I hope so too. I look forward to being called a traitor by every radical mage I oppose.

I have yet to meet a mage who is Pro-Mage in game who I believe to be at all worthy of the freedom they want. They're all grossly irresponsible selfish people willing to resort to murder and mind control when they don't get what they want.  And they justify every disgusting act because: Oppressed minority.

Zathrian, Uldred, Jowan, Merril, Orsino, Morrigan, Flemeth and on and on.

That's no different than the base masses - but what is different is the means by which they can enforce their selfish behavior.

Wynne was worthy.

Wynne was more Pro-Circle than Pro-Mage

Did you read Asunder?  I don't agree with that statement at all.

Yes and still consider Wynne pro-Circle

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Tevinter mages sunk Arlathan with blood magic, if the stories are true. I think the reclamation of the Dales from Orlesian occupation is a good first step, with the Orlesian civil war and the Mage-Templar War distracting the world. It might take blood magic (and lives) to reclaim long-lost Arlathan.

You don't think people will have to die for the elves to retake the Dales?

[Ieolus]

AresKeith wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Ieolus: I hope so too. I look forward to being called a traitor by every radical mage I oppose.

I have yet to meet a mage who is Pro-Mage in game who I believe to be at all worthy of the freedom they want. They're all grossly irresponsible selfish people willing to resort to murder and mind control when they don't get what they want.  And they justify every disgusting act because: Oppressed minority.

Zathrian, Uldred, Jowan, Merril, Orsino, Morrigan, Flemeth and on and on.

That's no different than the base masses - but what is different is the means by which they can enforce their selfish behavior.

Wynne was worthy.

Wynne was more Pro-Circle than Pro-Mage

Did you read Asunder?  I don't agree with that statement at all.

Yes and still consider Wynne pro-Circle

I just don't agree she was more pro-Circle than pro-Mage.  Those aren't mutually exclusive.

[wolfhowwl]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Tevinter mages sunk Arlathan with blood magic, if the stories are true. I think the reclamation of the Dales from Orlesian occupation is a good first step, with the Orlesian civil war and the Mage-Templar War distracting the world. It might take blood magic (and lives) to reclaim long-lost Arlathan.

You don't think people will have to die for the elves to retake the Dales?

Isn't that land inhabited by humans now and has been for centuries?

[LobselVith8]

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

They don't despise each other, just don't quite trust each other. They like each other more than they do humans, certainly.

The dalish elves think the city elves servile and not really true elves. The city elves consider their cousins to be savages who assault trade caravans and worship pagan gods. Whether they dislike humans more than they do one another is arguable. 

The elves in the Kirkwall Alienage seemed to respect Marethari (when she came to their dwelling in Kirkwall), so it could vary.

[Medhia Nox]

@Ieolus: I think for their use here that they are.

Pro-Mages on the BSN seem to be radicalized Libertarians that excuse any and all acts to justify their vendetta against perceived (correctly or incorrectly) injustices.

Pro-Circle - at least in my case - is for a re-establishing of the Circles and many of the rules even if there are MANY reforms.

[In Exile]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Isn't that land inhabited by humans now and has been for centuries?

Yes. It'll be a bloodbath. 

[Ozzy]

Ieolus wrote...

LOL, defending the Lord Seeker now are we?  He is blameless and Adrian is the cause of it all eh?

Please point me to where I said this.

It was Adrian's actions which caused Wynne to ultimately side with the Liberterian cause. She left her no choice by putting Rhys' life in danger. Had the event with Pharamond not occured, things would have turned out much differently. 

Lambert was a fool for jumping to conclusions immediately and Thedas is really in need of a CSI squad but it was Adrian's actions that provided the spark. 

[Xilizhra]

I don't think there's such a thing as that in DA:O. The real problem is settlement. The elves will need land for agriculture, and a forest is not a great place for it. I think "retaking" Arlathan is a good idea for a rallying cry, and it's something that can have symbolic force for the Dalish... but to the CEs even recall what Arlathan was?

The city elves will need to be united by some sort of promised land that they can call a unified home. Given that their history is gone, it doesn't really matter where this place is, only that it exists.

That would be impossible. The Circles can't be a nation. To be a nation, you need unified territory. The mages could come toghether and literally try and rip a piece of Thedas somewhere to create a magic kingdom to rival Tevinter... but the Exalted March against that writes itself.

From the mage POV, it makes zero sense to try and start a war or conflict with any nation in Thedas. The Mage endgame should be to sell human kings and queens on how much better it would be for them to have unrestricted authority over court mages, with the ability to reign fire and death on their enemies and mind control their rivals.

That would just lead to mages being under national instead of religious control, which is hardly any better. The Circle needs to be its own independent organization akin to the Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Tevinter mages sunk Arlathan with blood magic, if the stories are true. I think the reclamation of the Dales from Orlesian occupation is a good first step, with the Orlesian civil war and the Mage-Templar War distracting the world. It might take blood magic (and lives) to reclaim long-lost Arlathan.

You don't think people will have to die for the elves to retake the Dales?

I meant blood sacrifices to reverse what Tevinter may have done in sinking the kingdom of Arlathan into the ground.