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[Gwydden]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves in the Kirkwall Alienage seemed to respect Marethari (when she came to their dwelling in Kirkwall), so it could vary.

And if you took Fenris with you the first time you went to the dalish camp, the temperature dropped ten degrees. Not denying what you say, but Marethari, and by extension Merrill, strikes me as very acceptant of other cultures for dalish standards.

[Ieolus]

AstusOz wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

LOL, defending the Lord Seeker now are we?  He is blameless and Adrian is the cause of it all eh?

Please point me to where I said this.

It was Adrian's actions which caused Wynne to ultimately side with the Liberterian cause. She left her no choice by putting Rhys' life in danger. Had the event with Pharamond not occured, things would have turned out much differently. 

Lambert was a fool for jumping to conclusions immediately and Thedas is really in need of a CSI squad but it was Adrian's actions that provided the spark. 

Sorry, I was being facecious.  I should have put a smiley face or something.

I think Lambert would have taken advantage of the situation whether Pharamond was dead or not, but yes I believe Adrian is to blame for the initial spark.  It would have been best if she had kept clean hands.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
The city elves will need to be united by some sort of promised land that they can call a unified home. Given that their history is gone, it doesn't really matter where this place is, only that it exists.

I agree, I was just thinking out loud. I honestly can't recall if the CEs still had lore about Arlathan left.

That would just lead to mages being under national instead of religious control, which is hardly any better. The Circle needs to be its own independent organization akin to the Chantry.

An independent Circle, I think, is just a way to a centuries long war. Remember what happened with Tevinter broke away from the Chantry? It was a parade of Exalted Marches. Even if the Andrastian nations are weakened now, the mages don't even have a functional territory to congregate around. 

If each mage demanded to annex a part of a sovereign's territory, that would just lead to war and they'd be too spread out to fight. So it would have to be carving out a plot of some unlucky country's land. And that makes it easy for the Chantry to stoke fears about the former Circle mages trying to create their own version of Tevinter. 

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...
The city elves will need to be united by some sort of promised land that they can call a unified home. Given that their history is gone, it doesn't really matter where this place is, only that it exists.

Because...? City elves actually have a lot in common with the humans they share a country with. Just look at Zevran. They wouldn't know the first thing about running a country and it would only bring unwanted attention on themselves, and in a long term, increase racial tensions.

[LobselVith8]

wolfhowwl wrote...

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Tevinter mages sunk Arlathan with blood magic, if the stories are true. I think the reclamation of the Dales from Orlesian occupation is a good first step, with the Orlesian civil war and the Mage-Templar War distracting the world. It might take blood magic (and lives) to reclaim long-lost Arlathan.

You don't think people will have to die for the elves to retake the Dales? 

Isn't that land inhabited by humans now and has been for centuries?

It's under Orlesian occupation, like Ferelden was, but wasn't able to dislodge the empire like the latter managed. I'm certainly willing to have my Dalish Inquisitor lead to their removal from power so the People can regain their homeland.

[Ieolus]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Ieolus: I think for their use here that they are.

Pro-Mages on the BSN seem to be radicalized Libertarians that excuse any and all acts to justify their vendetta against perceived (correctly or incorrectly) injustices.

Pro-Circle - at least in my case - is for a re-establishing of the Circles and many of the rules even if there are MANY reforms.

I did not know this.  I was thinking pro-mage was just that, for the greater good of all mages.  Not necessarily for the Libertarians.  I would call them 'Pro-Independence' or 'Anti-Chantry'.  Maybe Wynne is shades of grey as those two options are too extreme for her anymore.

Anyway, I can't find anything that Wynne said directly in Asunder, but still looking... but I did find this:
"You all know who my mother was," he [Rhys] said to the crowd, "and she taught me something before she died.  It was that the time has come for us to put aside our assumptions of the past-the assumptions of others as well as our assumptions about ourselves.  We know nothing of Tranquility, or of demons, or even our own limitations.  Whatever comes next, we will only survive if we learn to look upon it with new eyes.  If we don't, we will simply make those old mistakes over again ... and whatever our fate, we will deserve it."

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's under Orlesian occupation, like Ferelden was, but wasn't able to dislodge the empire like the latter managed. I'm certainly willing to have my Dalish Inquisitor lead to their removal from power so the People can regain their homeland.

What Lob means here is that he's advocating for the forcible relocation of the entire human population of the Dales, which is better known as one of the most serious crimes against humanity possible IRL. 

Modifié par In Exile, 23 septembre 2013 - 03:44 .

[Ozzy]

Ieolus wrote...
Sorry, I was being facecious.  I should have put a smiley face or something.

I think Lambert would have taken advantage of the situation whether Pharamond was dead or not, but yes I believe Adrian is to blame for the initial spark.  It would have been best if she had kept clean hands.

My mistake then. It's often hard to pick up sarcasm on the net, doubly so when it comes to the BSN. You often see people throwing around these kinds of generalised accusations, haha. 

Ultimately, it was a tangled web. Lambert was looking for any reason to clamp down and exert his authority and Adrian provided him with the perfect excuse. Still you'd expect the investigation into the death of Pharamond to be a bit more exhaustive and thorough than it was. Especially when you have a group called the Seekers involved.

[Ieolus]

AstusOz wrote...

Ieolus wrote...
Sorry, I was being facecious.  I should have put a smiley face or something.

I think Lambert would have taken advantage of the situation whether Pharamond was dead or not, but yes I believe Adrian is to blame for the initial spark.  It would have been best if she had kept clean hands.

My mistake then. It's often hard to pick up sarcasm on the net, doubly so when it comes to the BSN. You often see people throwing around these kinds of generalised accusations, haha. 

Ultimately, it was a tangled web. Lambert was looking for any reason to clamp down and exert his authority and Adrian provided him with the perfect excuse. Still you'd expect the investigation into the death of Pharamond to be a bit more exhaustive and thorough than it was. Especially when you have a group called the Seekers involved.

Right?  But of course Lambert didn't care for the truth, he had what he wanted.  If Cole had done it instead, it would not have mattered.

[Medhia Nox]

@Ieolus: Maker bless her heart - even Wynne knew how stupid Thedas mages are. ((thankfully not called "wizards" which suggests wisdom))

I don't know enough about the book - or the character Rhys - to be able to put that quote in context however. Thanks for offering up the info!

[Gwydden]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Ieolus: Maker bless her heart - even Wynne knew how stupid Thedas mages are. ((thankfully not called "wizards" which suggests wisdom))

Well, locking people up in towers their entire lifes and preventing them from doing anything meaningful outside of times of complete crisis can have that effect on people.

[Ozzy]

Gwydden wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Ieolus: Maker bless her heart - even Wynne knew how stupid Thedas mages are. ((thankfully not called "wizards" which suggests wisdom))

Well, locking people up in towers their entire lifes and preventing them from doing anything meaningful outside of times of complete crisis can have that effect on people.

They are locked up but they're provided with better comfort, better security and better education than the majority of Thedosians. Whether it's a good compromise for lack of 'freedom' is another issue.

[Medhia Nox]

@Gwydden: But all those BOOKS!?

You would at least expect them to know about "magical things" right? Which - they don't.

For that you need to talk to a young dwarf girl named Dagna.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's under Orlesian occupation, like Ferelden was, but wasn't able to dislodge the empire like the latter managed. I'm certainly willing to have my Dalish Inquisitor lead to their removal from power so the People can regain their homeland.

What Lob means here is that he's advocating for the forcible relocation of the entire human population of the Dales, which is better known as one of the most serious crimes against humanity possible IRL. 

I find it preferable to killing all the humans living in an occupied elven nation.

[wolfhowwl]

So to be clear here, you are advocating ethnic cleansing?

[Gwydden]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Gwydden: But all those BOOKS!?

You would at least expect them to know about "magical things" right? Which - they don't.

For that you need to talk to a young dwarf girl named Dagna.

Oh, sorry. I thought we were talking more about maturity than straightforward intelligence. Even so, it's natural that most mages are not interested in magic as much as some mundanes, since they didn't actually chose to have it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There is no more Dales. It is not "occupied." It is gone. Its people are no more. Their descendants are either city elves or wandering nomads. And ethnic cleansing of all the humans there is still a crime against humanity, even if killing them all is worse. That territory has been part of Orlais now twice as long as it was an elven nation.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 septembre 2013 - 04:05 .

[Ieolus]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

There is no more Dales. It is not "occupied." It is gone. Its people are no more. Their descendants are either city elves or wandering nomads. And ethnic cleansing of all the humans there is still a crime against humanity, even if killing them all is worse. That territory has been part of Orlais now twice as long as it was an elven nation.

Well, no thanks to the Chantry, eh?

I wouldn't call it a crime against humanity.. i would call it an Exalted March, against the humans. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I never said the fate of the Dales wasn't  a terrible thing. The Chantry doing something bad to the elves 700 years ago doesn't justify the elves doing something bad to humans now.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 septembre 2013 - 04:13 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I find it preferable to killing all the humans living in an occupied elven nation.

I... I mean, yes... forcible relocation is better than outright systematized mass murder on racial lines... I guess... but... 

You aren't quite grasping the moral event horizon we're talking about hear. Do you have any idea what it means to try and forcibly relocate entire cities? The thousands - if not tends of thousands - you'd kill? 

The sheer scale of human suffering? 

I just want to understand the logic that has one go:

1. The forcible relocation by Orlais of the humans in the Dales was a horror, and injustice, and even 700 years later, Orlais sins aren't erased.
2. I eagerly await for the chance to commit the identical offence in the exact same geographic place, but now with the elves in the role of the villain. 

Modifié par In Exile, 23 septembre 2013 - 04:20 .

[Gwydden]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I find it preferable to killing all the humans living in an occupied elven nation.

I... I mean, yes... forcible relocation is better than outright systematized mass murder on racial lines... I guess... but... 

You aren't quite grasping the moral event horizon we're talking about hear. Do you have any idea what it means to try and forcibly relocate entire cities? The thousands - if not tends of thousands - you'd kill? 

Particularly when the best justification you can come up with for it is that some ancestors of yours (potentially) lived there a long, looooong time ago.

[LobselVith8]

wolfhowwl wrote...

So to be clear here, you are advocating ethnic cleansing?

That happens in the Alienages; it's called a purge, and most Andrastian humans don't seem to care. I, on the other hand, advocate the relocation of people who follow an anti-elven, anti-mage religion from the Dales, if the option to help the People reclaim it from the Orlesian Empire is an option. 

[Ieolus]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I never said the fate of the Dales wasn't  a terrible thing. The Chantry doing something bad to the elves 700 years ago doesn't justify the elves doing something bad to humans now.

It doesn't?  Not sure I would agree.  I'd rather keep IRL morals out of the world of Thedas.  There is plenty of justification for violence in Thedas.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

There is no more Dales. It is not "occupied." It is gone. Its people are no more. Their descendants are either city elves or wandering nomads. And ethnic cleansing of all the humans there is still a crime against humanity, even if killing them all is worse. That territory has been part of Orlais now twice as long as it was an elven nation. 

Centuries of purges, servitude, and hunting down the People has shown me the alternative. The elves deserve their own homeland; where they can be masters of their own destiny. And if the Dalish Inquisitor has the option to reclaim the Dales, I'd certainly support that path. I'm not interested in seeing the elves continue to suffer for more centuries simply because Orlesian nobility has vacation homes in the Dales.

[Gwydden]

LobselVith8 wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

So to be clear here, you are advocating ethnic cleansing?

That happens in the Alienages; it's called a purge, and most Andrastian humans don't seem to care. I, on the other hand, advocate the relocation of people who follow an anti-elven, anti-mage religion from the Dales, if the option to help the People reclaim it from the Orlesian Empire is an option. 

An eye for an eye, that's how it goes? That always ends well.