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[Gwydden]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

There is no more Dales. It is not "occupied." It is gone. Its people are no more. Their descendants are either city elves or wandering nomads. And ethnic cleansing of all the humans there is still a crime against humanity, even if killing them all is worse. That territory has been part of Orlais now twice as long as it was an elven nation. 

Centuries of purges, servitude, and hunting down the People has shown me the alternative. The elves deserve their own homeland; where they can be masters of their own destiny. And if the Dalish Inquisitor has the option to reclaim the Dales, I'd certainly support that path. I'm not interested in seeing the elves continue to suffer for more centuries simply because Orlesian nobility has vacation homes in the Dales.

What about the people who live there, whose mothers and fathers lived there? Should they go simply because the dalish lost a war against humans, a war they likely started, seven centuries ago?

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I find it preferable to killing all the humans living in an occupied elven nation.

I... I mean, yes... forcible relocation is better than outright systematized mass murder on racial lines... I guess... but... 

You aren't quite grasping the moral event horizon we're talking about hear. Do you have any idea what it means to try and forcibly relocate entire cities? The thousands - if not tends of thousands - you'd kill? 

The sheer scale of human suffering? 

I just want to understand the logic that has one go:

1. The forcible relocation by Orlais of the humans in the Dales was a horror, and injustice, and even 700 years later, Orlais sins aren't erased.
2. I eagerly await for the chance to commit the identical offence in the exact same geographic place, but now with the elves in the role of the villain. 

Elves suffering in Alienages for more untold centuries (as we saw with the orphanage massacre in Denerim during the last purge) while the People continue to get hunted down by templars, or the elves getting back their own homeland, where this suffering can stop happening. Yeah, I've thought about it.

[LobselVith8]

Gwydden wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That happens in the Alienages; it's called a purge, and most Andrastian humans don't seem to care. I, on the other hand, advocate the relocation of people who follow an anti-elven, anti-mage religion from the Dales, if the option to help the People reclaim it from the Orlesian Empire is an option. 

An eye for an eye, that's how it goes? That always ends well. 

Safety for the elves from purges, rapes, and destitution is the focus; not revenge.

[Gwydden]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That happens in the Alienages; it's called a purge, and most Andrastian humans don't seem to care. I, on the other hand, advocate the relocation of people who follow an anti-elven, anti-mage religion from the Dales, if the option to help the People reclaim it from the Orlesian Empire is an option. 

An eye for an eye, that's how it goes? That always ends well. 

Safety for the elves from purges, rapes, and destitution is the focus; not revenge.

But you're justifying you're elven crusade with a cheap "they did it first", which may not even be accurate. For all we know, elves started either or both the conflict with the Tevinter and the one with Orlais. In fact, that is actually consistent with our knowledge of them and the historical accounts we've got from different sources.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

There is no more Dales. It is not "occupied." It is gone. Its people are no more. Their descendants are either city elves or wandering nomads. And ethnic cleansing of all the humans there is still a crime against humanity, even if killing them all is worse. That territory has been part of Orlais now twice as long as it was an elven nation. 

Centuries of purges, servitude, and hunting down the People has shown me the alternative. The elves deserve their own homeland; where they can be masters of their own destiny. And if the Dalish Inquisitor has the option to reclaim the Dales, I'd certainly support that path. I'm not interested in seeing the elves continue to suffer for more centuries simply because Orlesian nobility has vacation homes in the Dales.

There's more than just the vacation home for nobles in Halamshiral. Orlesians have been lviing there for centuries. There might even be entirely human cities that have sprung up since the Fall of the Dales (it's unclear exactly where the old border between the Dales and Orlais was but I assumed it was just east of Montismmard. and there are two cities closer to Halamshiral than that.)

Yes elves have suffered a lot at the hands of humans. And sure the elves deserve a home of their own but it doesn't have to be on the ruins of the Dales. And ethnic cleansing countless humans is not the way for them to get it.

You seem to be eager to enact for the exact type of things you lambast the humans for doing to the elves. As if it's only ok to do terrible things for the elves' cause. If the Fall of the Dales justifies the death and destruction that reclaiming it would require, why don't the descendants of the Orlesians that were slaughtered and exiled deserve revenge of their own in another few cneturies?

Just as a side note, dalish aren't hunted down by templars or other humans unless they stay too long in human near human cities.

[Ieolus]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Just as a side note, dalish aren't hunted down by templars or other humans unless they stay too long in human near human cities. 

Your side note cracks me up!  Its ok because they are near human cities too long? hehe

[Gwydden]

Ieolus wrote...

Your side note cracks me up!  Its ok because they are near human cities too long? hehe

Templars hunt dalish mages because that is what they do for a living. Humans on cities who have dalish approaching them may attack elves because they;re illegally in their territory and are known for killing people who comes too close to them, acting as bandits and entering in armed conflicts with people that have shown no intention of attacking them. Having someone like that around usually unnerves regular citizens.

[LobselVith8]

Gwydden wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Centuries of purges, servitude, and hunting down the People has shown me the alternative. The elves deserve their own homeland; where they can be masters of their own destiny. And if the Dalish Inquisitor has the option to reclaim the Dales, I'd certainly support that path. I'm not interested in seeing the elves continue to suffer for more centuries simply because Orlesian nobility has vacation homes in the Dales.

What about the people who live there, whose mothers and fathers lived there?

What about the elves who have to suffer under human rule? Or the nomadic clans who are hunted down? I don't see why my Dalish Inquisitor should forgo giving his people back their homeland, and a future free of servitude and subjugation.

Gwydden wrote...

Should they go simply because the dalish lost a war against humans, a war they likely started, seven centuries ago? 

The Dalish claim they were invaded by templars; the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves didn't convert. There's more than simply the Orlesian account.

[Ieolus]

Hmm.. I wonder why they have been forced to wander for centuries... it isn't coming to me yet, give me a few moments...

[LobselVith8]

Ieolus wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Just as a side note, dalish aren't hunted down by templars or other humans unless they stay too long in human near human cities. 

Your side note cracks me up!  Its ok because they are near human cities too long? hehe

Merrill also says that Dalish are nomadic, in part, because the templars hunt them down, which is also why their elven mages are careful about using magic where templars might see them.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Ieolus wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Just as a side note, dalish aren't hunted down by templars or other humans unless they stay too long in human near human cities. 

Your side note cracks me up!  Its ok because they are near human cities too long? hehe

My point is that it's still different than the templars hunting down the Dalish every step of wherever they go. Most of the time Dalish keep to themselves.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrillbalso says that Dalish are nomadic, in part, because the templars hunt them down, which is also why their elven mages are careful about using magic where templars might see them.

In the same conversation she says "they usually don't pursue" once they migrate away from human settlements.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 septembre 2013 - 04:52 .

[Ieolus]

My point is, the status quo is not acceptable. War is the extension of politics. If you can't get what you want by peaceful means, sometimes war is the inevitable result. Just look at the Mages.

[Gwydden]

LobselVith8 wrote...

What about the elves who have to suffer under human rule? Or the nomadic clans who are hunted down? I don't see why my Dalish Inquisitor should forgo giving his people back their homeland, and a future free of servitude and subjugation.

The city elves don't suffer under human rule. They suffer because of racial tensions where they happen to be the minority that, for historical reasons, has no representatives in the higher classes. In human kingdoms there isn't a factual "law" or anything similar that limits elves in any way human commoners aren't, as far as I know.

On the other hand, the clans are not "hunted down". We have lot of examples of the dalish attacking other people. Nearly none of them of it happening the other way around. In fact, I'm surprised for the amount of tolerance human kingdoms show at letting the dalish be.

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Dalish claim they were invaded by templars; the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves didn't convert. There's more than simply the Orlesian account.

And humans (I don't remember if it works for other origins) can condemn the dalish for attacking first. I did specify that the dalish only likely started the war, based on what we know about them and in the fact that the orlesian account makes more sense. But I could be wrong, of course.

[LobselVith8]

Gwydden wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

Your side note cracks me up!  Its ok because they are near human cities too long? hehe

Templars hunt dalish mages because that is what they do for a living. Humans on cities who have dalish approaching them may attack elves because they;re illegally in their territory and are known for killing people who comes too close to them, acting as bandits and entering in armed conflicts with people that have shown no intention of attacking them. Having someone like that around usually unnerves regular citizens.

Given how hostile Andrastian society is to elves and heathens, that's why I think my Dalish Inquisitor would strive to give his people their own homeland.

[Gwydden]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

Your side note cracks me up!  Its ok because they are near human cities too long? hehe

Templars hunt dalish mages because that is what they do for a living. Humans on cities who have dalish approaching them may attack elves because they;re illegally in their territory and are known for killing people who comes too close to them, acting as bandits and entering in armed conflicts with people that have shown no intention of attacking them. Having someone like that around usually unnerves regular citizens.

Given how hostile Andrastian society is to elves and heathens, that's why I think my Dalish Inquisitor would strive to give his people their own homeland.

I was trying to state that human hostility towards the dalish is a result of the dalish's own agressiveness when dealing with other cultures. I agree that the dalish need their own land, but the city elves are better off with the humans, to whom they have a lot more in common with than with their dalish cousins.

[LobselVith8]

Gwydden wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What about the elves who have to suffer under human rule? Or the nomadic clans who are hunted down? I don't see why my Dalish Inquisitor should forgo giving his people back their homeland, and a future free of servitude and subjugation. 

The city elves don't suffer under human rule. They suffer because of racial tensions where they happen to be the minority that, for historical reasons, has no representatives in the higher classes. In human kingdoms there isn't a factual "law" or anything similar that limits elves in any way human commoners aren't, as far as I know.

The purges alone disprove your contention that elves don't suffer, and elves are denied opportunities that only humans can achieve.

Gwydden wrote...

On the other hand, the clans are not "hunted down". We have lot of examples of the dalish attacking other peopleNearly none of them of it happening the other way around. In fact, I'm surprised for the amount of tolerance human kingdoms show at letting the dalish be.

Merrill says the templars hunt the Dalish. The Sabrae clan has to avoid a lynch mob of humans even if he spared the humans. Velanna reacted negatively to humans who tried to burn down the Dalish. Templars tortured a child of the Dalish for information on Feynriel.

[Gwydden]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The purges alone disprove your contention that elves don't suffer, and elves are denied opportunities that only humans can achieve.

I didn't say they didn't suffer. Just that said suffering was mostly do to racial tensions rather than to human conspiracies. And what oportunities does an elf lack that a regular commoner doesn't?

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill says the templars hunt the Dalish.

Templars hunt down all ilegal mages. The dalish harbor ilegal mages. And it's not an active persecution, since there are a lot of dalish clans around pretty much doing what they want.

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Sabrae clan has to avoid a lynch mob of humans even if he spared the humans.

After they threatened said humas with death for approaching a location within their own lands. Add to that the reputation of bandits and backstabbers (which they earned) of the dalish and nobody wants them as neighbors.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Velanna reacted negatively to humans who tried to burn down the Dalish.

I fail to see what you're trying to say here, to be honest.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Templars tortured a child of the Dalish for information on Feynriel.

Many templars, particularly in Kirkwall, are horrible to everyone with even a remote relationship to mages. Not elves or dalish exclusively.

Modifié par Gwydden, 23 septembre 2013 - 05:06 .

[LobselVith8]

Gwydden wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Given how hostile Andrastian society is to elves and heathens, that's why I think my Dalish Inquisitor would strive to give his people their own homeland.

I was trying to state that human hostility towards the dalish is a result of the dalish's own agressiveness when dealing with other cultures. I agree that the dalish need their own land, but the city elves are better off with the humans, to whom they have a lot more in common with than with their dalish cousins.

Like the Alienage elves who were willing to convert to the Qun for a chance at a better life?

[Gwydden]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Like the Alienage elves who were willing to convert to the Qun for a chance at a better life?

Yeah, they have crappy lifes. Yeah, living around humans sucks, since they hate each other and humans just happen to be more and all nobles and authority figures are human. Still, friction between the two groups is to blame with that, and if the city elves when off to the dalish, they would experiment a different and not at all better type of friction. The qunari? They don't care that they are elves, and that alone makes them and attractive choice to them.

[LobselVith8]

Gwydden wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Like the Alienage elves who were willing to convert to the Qun for a chance at a better life? 

Yeah, they have crappy lifes. Yeah, living around humans sucks, since they hate each other and humans just happen to be more and all nobles and authority figures are human. Still, friction between the two groups is to blame with that, and if the city elves when off to the dalish, they would experiment a different and not at all better type of friction. The qunari? They don't care that they are elves, and that alone makes them and attractive choice to them. 

Life with the Dalish might be preferable for many of the Alienage elves who are desperate for something better. I think an elven homeland could bring unity among the differing elves across Thedas, since it would be the only elven mecca of it's time. There are a lot of distinct groups of elves, and I think it would make for some interesting stories.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Elves suffering in Alienages for more untold centuries (as we saw with the orphanage massacre in Denerim during the last purge) while the People continue to get hunted down by templars, or the elves getting back their own homeland, where this suffering can stop happening. Yeah, I've thought about it.

All the elves that suffered for untold centuries are dead. They suffered, they diied, and ethnic cleasing in the Dales won't bring them back from the dead. 

Ethnic cleasing doesn't make the suffering won't stop. All the human corpses that you've just created, all the children you'll end up killing and the women you'll end up raping will just be the impentus behind another army bearing down on the Dales. And the end result of this is either the elves being crushed again and subject to more centuries of abuse, or 

Tne entire nation of Orlais would have a cause to eradicate the newly founded Dales from Thedas, and frankly the other Andrastian nations wouldn't be wrong to join them. 

[Gwydden]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Life with the Dalish might be preferable for many of the Alienage elves who are desperate for something better. I think an elven homeland could bring unity among the differing elves across Thedas, since it would be the only elven mecca of it's time. There are a lot of distinct groups of elves, and I think it would make for some interesting stories.

A more plausible scenario in my eyes is the city elves, who already dislike the dalish due tu cultural and social differences, realising that to the most noble dalish they're nothing but second class citizens, untrue elves who abandoned their traditions to go live with the dirty, plague-bearing shems. The two groups have been apart for far too long to have any actual connection with each other. Again, I point Zevran out. He is Antivan, as he himself states, as much as any human born there. The city elf Warden is Fereldan first and foremost. Elthina is Orlesian, and Fenris, as much as he might hate to admit it, is Tevinter from head to heels.

[Xilizhra]

For the record, I disagree with Lobsel on this particular issue. After thinking about it, I don't think that the location of the original Dales matters much, and that the Dalish people as a whole have fallen into a sort of mental stagnancy by just keeping the lost lore and not trying to seek out more of it. The Dales are a goal too low; what I want is a restored Arlathan. It doesn't have to be in the same spot, just whatever spot would be best. A homeland is more important than where the land is.

Not that I don't want to see Orlais' power crushed for the next ten thousand years, but the Dales physically are less important than what they were in every other way: a new homeland.

[Gwydden]

In Exile wrote...
All the elves that suffered for untold centuries are dead. They suffered, they diied, and ethnic cleasing in the Dales won't bring them back from the dead. 

Ethnic cleasing doesn't make the suffering won't stop. All the human corpses that you've just created, all the children you'll end up killing and the women you'll end up raping will just be the impentus behind another army bearing down on the Dales. And the end result of this is either the elves being crushed again and subject to more centuries of abuse, or 

Tne entire nation of Orlais would have a cause to eradicate the newly founded Dales from Thedas, and frankly the other Andrastian nations wouldn't be wrong to join them. 

The elves can't afford any more failed wars against the humans. Third's the charm: they lose again, and they will be wiped out. And given their historial and the much greater power and number of the human nations, they will lose if they engage in a conflict with them.

[Xilizhra]

Gwydden wrote...

In Exile wrote...
All the elves that suffered for untold centuries are dead. They suffered, they diied, and ethnic cleasing in the Dales won't bring them back from the dead. 

Ethnic cleasing doesn't make the suffering won't stop. All the human corpses that you've just created, all the children you'll end up killing and the women you'll end up raping will just be the impentus behind another army bearing down on the Dales. And the end result of this is either the elves being crushed again and subject to more centuries of abuse, or 

Tne entire nation of Orlais would have a cause to eradicate the newly founded Dales from Thedas, and frankly the other Andrastian nations wouldn't be wrong to join them. 

The elves can't afford any more failed wars against the humans. Third's the charm: they lose again, and they will be wiped out. And given their historial and the much greater power and number of the human nations, they will lose if they engage in a conflict with them.

Well, let's hope that the elves can stay out of the line of fire on this Veil tear, because opportunity may knock.