135 réponses à ce sujet

[mickey111]

In Exile wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...
Okay think about it this way

Warrior has 10 hit points
Rogue has 5 hit points
Mage has 1 hit point

That's now even close to how it works. In DA:O and DA2, mages started with HP give or take around what warriors had, and the only difference between them and rogues was (i) dodging and (ii) armour. 

So I don't follow your complaint, because it doesn't describe the game at all.

Melee being an option would be nice as long as the mage cannot be as powerful as the warrior and rogue. 

What would be the point of having an inferior ability that you should never use?

Because common bandits aren't worth spending half the mana pool on. It's called resource effiecency which is something that simple attack button spam games such as Skyrim and CoD don't know the definition of and both games are terribly boring.

Modifié par mickey111, 21 septembre 2013 - 11:13 .

[Br3admax]

Abraham_uk wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

/Implying that prodigal mage PC that is praised for talent and skill is the same as every other mage in existence.

Very bad assumption OP.

Not so much praised.
Rather feared and hated.
The kind of person that Templars would quickly have locked up or executed.

All this talk about mages versus Templars. Why are so many mages locked up, but when it comes to player character and followers, they turn a blind eye (Bethany Hawke being an exception).

Where are you getting these facts from? I've never seen a Templar fear the PC, and I was talking about other mages, who are a much better judge in this situation. 

They can't lock up the Warden, if you are including them. Being a Grey Warden makes you unable to be held in the tower.

As to Hawke, they are rich and powerful, as well as the Champion. They can get away with anything. 

[Laughing_Man]

What's the point of trying to "balance" (nerf) anything in a mainly single player game?

Besides, instead of nerfing mages and pissing off half thier players, find some lore explanation to make other classes more fun and impressive!
I mean reavers and templars are kinda using magic themselves already, so just expand those ideas a little, and no one will have a reason to whine about mary-sue classes.

[DarthSideus2]

Abraham_uk wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...

How about wizard foes?

Should wizard foes follow the same rules of magic as your party?
Or is it okay for them to spam area of effect spells whilst the same being impossible for the party?

I hate it when enemies don't follow the same rules as the player. I hate it a lot. 

Finally. We agree on something:wizard:.

I was also wondering on frequency of wizards appearing.
I like the idea of enemy wizards being few.

A few really challenging foes. Perhaps making them the most punishingly difficult enemies in the game to showcase how powerful magic is. I would like wizards to be rare are in said universe. If wizards are all over the place then magic doesn't seem all that impressive.

I believe that's how the Arcane Horrors are used.

[Kalas Magnus]

balancing? nah.

if anything they should be strengthened. the blood mage spec isnt as powerful as it was in the lore.
They are superhumans after all.

They should have less possible allies though.

Modifié par Kalas Magnus, 21 septembre 2013 - 11:37 .

[mickey111]

TheRedVipress wrote...

What's the point of trying to "balance" (nerf) anything in a mainly single player game?

Why not?

I can think of one reason why too much balancing is bad, and that's because all things been equal could contribute to making the whole thing feel artificial and like an excercise of learning the game play and generally less fun and immersive all around. Balance isn't the be all, and it's okay for some things to be better than others in some things and it's okay if class roles overlap in certain areas a little bit. It's not okay for archers and mages to stomp all over everything because that's how people feel like they've only wasted time on thier rogues and healer and warriors, and people get pissed off when they feel like that and pissed off people are bad for sales. Even if mages are to Dragon Age what Superman is to DC, then that's fairly balanced too, because Superman has at least 2 severe flaws in his kryptonite and his obsessive hero complex which endangers about as many people as it saves.

The idea of balance done right is to make each player role to surpass all other classes in some ways but not in others, and why not?

Modifié par mickey111, 21 septembre 2013 - 11:47 .

[Laughing_Man]

mickey111 wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...

What's the point of trying to "balance" (nerf) anything in a mainly single player game?

Why not?

I can think of one reason why too much balancing is bad, and that's because all things been equal could contribute to making the whole thing feel artificial and like an excercise of learning the game play and generally less fun and immersive all around. Balance isn't the be all, and it's okay for some things to be better than others in some things and it's okay if class roles overlap in certain areas a little bit. It's not okay for archers and mages to stomp all over everything because that's how people feel like they've only wasted time on thier rogues and healer and warriors, and people get pissed off when they feel like that and pissed off people are bad for sales.

The idea of balance done right is to make each player role to surpass all other classes in some ways but not in others, and why not?

You already have that anyway.
When it comes to soaking up damage the tank is already the best.
When it comes to single target damage, a backstabbing high-level rouge is the best.
When it comes to the essential role of keeping everyone alive, the healer is the best. etc.

[Laughing_Man]

Besides, when you insert magic into a story, balance goes out the window when it comes to lore and RP.
Magic users simply have far greater potential to non-MU's.
The only way to give non-MU the edge back, is to either give them some kind of magic themselves (templar\\reaver and such) or to introduce new concepts, such as biological enhancements or some kind of anti-magic tecnology(which instead of balancing things, makes playing a mage a liability from RP standpoint).

[mickey111]

It's why steampunk like arcanum and cyperpunk like shadowrun make for much better fantasy settings than middle earth or whatever its the DA equal is called. The inclusion of higher technology means that magic isn't nearly as overpowering.

Modifié par mickey111, 22 septembre 2013 - 12:11 .

[aphelion4]

Overpowered spells because it's a single player game. Being able to blow **** up is more fun than spamming an attack at something trying to kill it for 10 minutes.

[mickey111]

Has aphelion been playing skyrim? That is not the definition of balance. Balance isn't boring just because you don't any better.

Modifié par mickey111, 22 septembre 2013 - 12:17 .

[Kalas Magnus]

aphelion4 wrote...

Overpowered spells because it's a single player game. Being able to blow **** up is more fun than spamming an attack at something trying to kill it for 10 minutes.

turn down the difficulty

[aphelion4]

mickey111 wrote...

That is not the definition of balance.

Having played many MMOs, the idea of balance seems to be throwing a ridiculously long ass cooldowns on spells, nerfing survivability while giving back nothing in return, taking away the OOMPH behind a spell and adding boring uniformity and taking away utility.

If that is their idea of balance (as it seems to be if you consider Origins and DA2), then it won't be fun for me. Mages, lore wise, are more powerful than non-mages. Being powerful and roflstomping everything is fun for me.

Modifié par aphelion4, 22 septembre 2013 - 12:22 .

[mickey111]

aphelion4 wrote...

mickey111 wrote...

That is not the definition of balance.

Having played many MMOs, the idea of balance seems to be throwing a ridiculously long ass cooldowns on spells, nerfing survivability while giving back nothing in return, taking away the OOMPH behind a spell and adding boring uniformity and taking away utility.

If that is their idea of balance (as it seems to be if you consider Origins and DA2), then it won't be fun for me. Mages, lore wise, are more powerful than non-mages. Being powerful and roflstomping everything is fun for me.

Good point.

[Laughing_Man]

aphelion4 wrote...

mickey111 wrote...

That is not the definition of balance.

Having played many MMOs, the idea of balance seems to be throwing a ridiculously long ass cooldowns on spells, nerfing survivability while giving back nothing in return, taking away the OOMPH behind a spell and adding boring uniformity and taking away utility.

If that is their idea of balance (as it seems to be if you consider Origins and DA2), then it won't be fun for me. Mages, lore wise, are more powerful than non-mages. Being powerful and roflstomping everything is fun for me.

As a someone who consistantly plays magic related characters in games, I agree.

And something like nerfing the mage class in a way that will make it unimpressive and less fun to play, 
will probably cause me to not buy the game.

[aphelion4]

TheRedVipress wrote...

aphelion4 wrote...

mickey111 wrote...

That is not the definition of balance.

Having played many MMOs, the idea of balance seems to be throwing a ridiculously long ass cooldowns on spells, nerfing survivability while giving back nothing in return, taking away the OOMPH behind a spell and adding boring uniformity and taking away utility.

If that is their idea of balance (as it seems to be if you consider Origins and DA2), then it won't be fun for me. Mages, lore wise, are more powerful than non-mages. Being powerful and roflstomping everything is fun for me.

As a someone who consistantly plays magic related characters in games, I agree.

And something like nerfing the mage class in a way that will make it unimpressive and less fun to play, 
will probably cause me to not buy the game.

This is why I suggest BioWare find a way to make Warriors and Rogues more variable, by giving them more utility (the main component of Mages I love--crowd control, healing, support, and damage).

Rogues can easily be given more crowd control abilities by adding better traps, poisons, debilitating attacks (like a hamstring slice, I dunno). And if they add the Bard spec back, they have them heal the morale of party members or something.

With Warriors I think it's a bit more tricky, but Templars, Berserker and Reaver are all unique-ish enough Lorewise to pull something cool off I'm sure.

[mickey111]

The Starcraft and BGII glass "canon" balance were the most fun imo, and seems to be what people here are requesting? Glass canon means that the player and all but a very small few of the players toughest enemies died quickly and in large amounts. Even the Dragons from Baldurs Gate 2 are lucky to live for more than 10 seconds after taking away their protection and have a few people stabbing holes in them.

[The Hierophant]

Balance? Lore wise spell casting should be disrupted when a mage is being wailed on. IIRC DA's spellcasting requires concentration. Also if the mage loses concentration the spell should backfire like in the case of that apprentice in the library during the Mage Origin. Templar abilities should flat out negate spell casting for non blood mages. Plus with the tear in the veil spellcasting could/should attract the attention of any demon in the vicinity.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 22 septembre 2013 - 01:21 .

[mickey111]

And game wise that is exactly what happened in Origins whenever a mage who in the middle of calling down certain spells was interrupted. Not all of the spells, just the really powerful ones like earthquake, and lightning and other powerful types which involved using the climate as a weapon.

[Laughing_Man]

aphelion4 wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...

aphelion4 wrote...

mickey111 wrote...

That is not the definition of balance.

Having played many MMOs, the idea of balance seems to be throwing a ridiculously long ass cooldowns on spells, nerfing survivability while giving back nothing in return, taking away the OOMPH behind a spell and adding boring uniformity and taking away utility.

If that is their idea of balance (as it seems to be if you consider Origins and DA2), then it won't be fun for me. Mages, lore wise, are more powerful than non-mages. Being powerful and roflstomping everything is fun for me.

As a someone who consistantly plays magic related characters in games, I agree.

And something like nerfing the mage class in a way that will make it unimpressive and less fun to play, 
will probably cause me to not buy the game.

This is why I suggest BioWare find a way to make Warriors and Rogues more variable, by giving them more utility (the main component of Mages I love--crowd control, healing, support, and damage).

Rogues can easily be given more crowd control abilities by adding better traps, poisons, debilitating attacks (like a hamstring slice, I dunno). And if they add the Bard spec back, they have them heal the morale of party members or something.

With Warriors I think it's a bit more tricky, but Templars, Berserker and Reaver are all unique-ish enough Lorewise to pull something cool off I'm sure.

That's more or less what I suggested myself. 

But the bard thing is abit ridiculus... stopping to sing mid battle to stun-lock an enemy?... Talk about breaking suspension of disbelief...
A better moral boosting class would be some kind of space-marine-esque knight in shining armor crying "For The Emperor!"... or something.
But that dosen't mean Rogues can't be effective with more inventive uses of chemical warfare, throwing knives, surprise attacks, etc.

Warriors simply need some type of magic to make them more impressive and effective while staying within what is believeable according to DA's lore. It could be an expansion of Templar \\ Reaver abilities, or it can be something else.

[Laughing_Man]

The Hierophant wrote...

Balance? Lore wise spell casting should be disrupted when a mage is being wailed on. IIRC DA's spellcasting requires concentration. Also if the mage loses concentration the spell should backfire like in the case of that apprentice in the library during the Mage Origin. Templar abilities should flat out negate spell casting for non blood mages. Plus with the tear in the veil spellcasting could/should attract the attention of any demon in the vicinity.

That's not really how things work in the DA lore.
An experienced mage probably needs less concentration, he did those spells so many times in the past that it's probably almost an instinct for him.

Templars just use a branch of magic themselves.
When it's a contest of experience and willpower, the better caster will win.

Spells backfiring is possible I guess, but templars tend to negate and dispel instead when they manage it.
The templar Smite thing might be causing a type of backfiring, like the mage's "Mana Clash".

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 22 septembre 2013 - 01:41 .

[In Exile]

mickey111 wrote...
Because common bandits aren't worth spending half the mana pool on. It's called resource effiecency which is something that simple attack button spam games such as Skyrim and CoD don't know the definition of and both games are terribly boring.

Even if we were talking about a game were both health and mana didn't regenerate, melee would still be a bad idea because it makes it much more probable you will be hit. 

[mickey111]

In Exile wrote...

mickey111 wrote...
Because common bandits aren't worth spending half the mana pool on. It's called resource effiecency which is something that simple attack button spam games such as Skyrim and CoD don't know the definition of and both games are terribly boring.

Even if we were talking about a game were both health and mana didn't regenerate...

Understand that I'm talking about the game based on vague concepts and that the regeneration will be about as helpful as the encounter designers want it to be which depends on so many little thing. Heres a short list:
How quickly does it all regenerate?
How soon?
Can the player speed it up?
How can the player speed up the regeneration?
Can the enemies slow it down?
How much can enemies slow it down?
Does it regenerate outside of combat only, or is it constant?

I don't have these answers, do you? No, you don't. So how do you know that weaker spells won't be worth using?

Modifié par mickey111, 22 septembre 2013 - 02:19 .

[The Hierophant]

TheRedVipress wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Balance? Lore wise spell casting should be disrupted when a mage is being wailed on. IIRC DA's spellcasting requires concentration. Also if the mage loses concentration the spell should backfire like in the case of that apprentice in the library during the Mage Origin. Templar abilities should flat out negate spell casting for non blood mages. Plus with the tear in the veil spellcasting could/should attract the attention of any demon in the vicinity.

That's not really how things work in the DA lore.
An experienced mage probably needs less concentration, he did those spells so many times in the past that it's probably almost an instinct for him.

Casting a spell in a controlled environment is one thing but i doubt it's easy for even an experienced mage to concentrate when they are being ganked Julius Caesar style. 

Templars just use a branch of magic themselves.
When it's a contest of experience and willpower, the better caster will win.

Spells backfiring is possible I guess, but templars tend to negate and dispel instead when they manage it.
The templar Smite thing might be causing a type of backfiring, like the mage's "Mana Clash".

I'd like to see that negation ability of the Templars make it into the game as i remembered that i had no issue with maintaining mana or casting spells as a force mage/spirit healer, when battling the Templars and Meredith during DA2's climax.

[wolfhowwl]

The Hierophant wrote...
I'd like to see that negation ability of the Templars make it into the game as i remembered that i had no issue with maintaining mana or casting spells as a force mage/spirit healer, when battling the Templars and Meredith during DA2's climax.

But then the Templars would have to be more than reskinned versions of the same mooks you fight all game.

I believe in DA:O's Broken Circle quest you had to worry about mind-controlled Templars using their unique abilities.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 22 septembre 2013 - 02:32 .