135 réponses à ce sujet

[Laughing_Man]

aphelion4 wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...

I don't really see what's the problem, half the people who want to "balance" mages, are probably not going to play them anyway.
Isn't it better to simply make other classes attractive too?

Instead of trying to look where you can make mages weaker, look for where you can make other classes stronger.

I was under the impression the majority of players played Warriors and Rogues because magic classes never seem all that popular.

I didn't realy see gameplay stats, but I always played mainly magic, magic-like, or magic related classes in almost any RPG I played. And I know that I am not the only one who likes it.

Besides, playing the default warrior \\ soldier always appeals more to some people that find any RP to be less than desirable.

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 23 septembre 2013 - 02:34 .

[Usergnome]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Bring back friendly fire. Mages can no longer blast everything without concern, thought, or strategy!

Not a bad idea!

Mages are supposed to be a huge danger to everyone, including their friends, enemies, and even themselves.

Having a mage cast their insane spells everywhere with reckless abandon and no planning/strategy should damage their allies, and having your spell interrupted should cause the spell to backfire and damage/debilitate the mage himself.

The way I see it, Magic SHOULD be strong. It can destroy, protect, control, and heal. But it should be difficult to control and extremely dangerous to get wrong... Which means backfiring spells and friendly fire, although I'm sure its more complicated than just that.

[In Exile]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Bring back friendly fire. Mages can no longer blast everything without concern, thought, or strategy!

Speaking as someone who only plays DA on nightmare, I can't say that (i) this feature was ever gone and (ii) that it has any significant role in balancing how OP mages are. It's very easy to find a chokepoint and then unleash inhuman death from above on all enemies. 

[Ieolus]

In Exile wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Bring back friendly fire. Mages can no longer blast everything without concern, thought, or strategy!

Speaking as someone who only plays DA on nightmare, I can't say that (i) this feature was ever gone and (ii) that it has any significant role in balancing how OP mages are. It's very easy to find a chokepoint and then unleash inhuman death from above on all enemies. 

That is kind of his point... chokepoint.. positioning... strategy... mages win!

[AutumnWitch]

I have been very happy with mages in both games. No need to reinvent the wheel just because I can.

[Laughing_Man]

In Exile wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Bring back friendly fire. Mages can no longer blast everything without concern, thought, or strategy!

Speaking as someone who only plays DA on nightmare, I can't say that (i) this feature was ever gone and (ii) that it has any significant role in balancing how OP mages are. It's very easy to find a chokepoint and then unleash inhuman death from above on all enemies. 

You can always play Dark Souls or something, raining inhuman death from above is kinda the definition of mage potential in DA.

[mickey111]

I actually agree with In Exile on this point... the AI isn't tactical enough for friendly fire to do much. Almost all of my combat encounters went like so:

the enemies were staggered out in such a formation that it was possible for me to bait them out and defeat what might have been a challenging battle with ease. The AI in this case were too aggressive which meant that they overextend themselves, and they either didn't shout out for the rest of their buddies to follow and help, or were just plain screwed up because they tried following me through a chokepoint which most 13 year old boys who've played CoD can tell you is very easy to defend and very hard to attack.

This is type of suicidal behaviour is okay for me in moderate doses, but the enemies need to get a bit smarter. Why did they suddenly start getting so dumb after fighting my way up to the ogre at the tower of ishal? The darkspawn were smart enough to do **** like flanking, and trapping, and call in reinforcements, and to shoot at you from watch towers and everything. I just wish that the rest of DAo was as tactical, and that the enemies had established some sort of combat zones where they knew they weren't at a severe disadvantage which they couldn't be baited out simply by shooting at them with a magic staff.

[In Exile]

Ieolus wrote...
That is kind of his point... chokepoint.. positioning... strategy... mages win!

I'm just saying it doesn't require a lot of thinking to avoid an AOE cone. 

This is type of suicidal behaviour is okay for me in moderate doses, but the enemies need to get a bit smarter. Why did they suddenly start getting so dumb after fighting my way up to the ogre at the tower of ishal? The darkspawn were smart enough to do **** like flanking, and trapping, and call in reinforcements, and to shoot at you from watch towers and everything. I just wish that the rest of DAo was as tactical, and that the enemies had established some sort of combat zones where they knew they weren't at a severe disadvantage which they couldn't be baited out simply by shooting at them with a magic staff.

Wait, what? Where did these intelligent tactics come from? I don't recall any of that.

Modifié par In Exile, 23 septembre 2013 - 03:36 .

[Ieolus]

I think everyone can agree that better AI tactics would be great to have. Still want friendly fire though back by default... with the added bonus that it could help people think mages would be more balanced that way.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Ieolus wrote...

I think everyone can agree that better AI tactics would be great to have. Still want friendly fire though back by default... with the added bonus that it could help people think mages would be more balanced that way.

Only if it's also enabled that you can clobber your own teammates with the wild swinging from your two-handed weapons and the like. No health regen and friendly fire everything? Trial and error tedium for everyone!

[Ieolus]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

I think everyone can agree that better AI tactics would be great to have. Still want friendly fire though back by default... with the added bonus that it could help people think mages would be more balanced that way.

Only if it's also enabled that you can clobber your own teammates with the wild swinging from your two-handed weapons and the like. No health regen and friendly fire everything? Trial and error tedium for everyone!

I sure hope swinging around that way-too-long two-hander causes some friendly fire as well, hells yes!

Trial and error tedium?  More like ... "Because we are going for a more realistic feel" - Whoever was leading the PAX video presentation.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Ieolus wrote...
I sure hope swinging around that way-too-long two-hander causes some friendly fire as well, hells yes!

Trial and error tedium?  More like ... "Because we are going for a more realistic feel" - Whoever was leading the PAX video presentation.

No, that decidedly sounds like trial-and-error tedium. If I wanted more of that I'd fire up Dark Souls.

This is why I hate it when developers break out the R words. I'm more for believable than realistic. DAO's baseball swings and DA2's spastic ninja action were both equally silly.

[Ieolus]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Ieolus wrote...
I sure hope swinging around that way-too-long two-hander causes some friendly fire as well, hells yes!

Trial and error tedium?  More like ... "Because we are going for a more realistic feel" - Whoever was leading the PAX video presentation.

No, that decidedly sounds like trial-and-error tedium. If I wanted more of that I'd fire up Dark Souls.

This is why I hate it when developers break out the R words. I'm more for believable than realistic. DAO's baseball swings and DA2's spastic ninja action were both equally silly.

Bah.  I spit on your false equivilency!  Ninjas are clearly more silly than baseball. 

Modifié par Ieolus, 23 septembre 2013 - 04:33 .

[mickey111]

Ehat's the matter Sopa, can't take having to spend the hour or so required to learn how not to suffer friendly fire with all the various weapons of the game? I don't see why game design has to be dumbed down if we've got difficulty sliders which can stack the damage taken vs damage recieved greatly in your favor. Games like the souls series are a whole different story however, because it doesn't scale to your level which means that the designers design it with fairly specific expectations as to the players ability to learn and play with some skill, but that isn't Bioware and it's not Dragon Age.

So again, why dumb down game design when Bioware are so willing to go easy on all of the people who can't handle the default difficulty settings?

[Paul E Dangerously]

mickey111 wrote...

Ehat's the matter Sopa, can't take having to spend the hour or so required to learn how not to suffer friendly fire with all the various weapons of the game? I don't see why game design has to be dumbed down if we've got difficulty sliders which can stack the damage taken vs damage recieved greatly in your favor. Games like the souls series are a whole different story however, because it doesn't scale to your level which means that the designers design it with fairly specific expectations as to the players ability to learn and play with some skill, but that isn't Bioware and it's not Dragon Age.

So again, why dumb down game design when Bioware are so willing to go easy on all of the people who can't handle the default difficulty settings?

Because this inevitably winds up with you fighting the AI. Not the enemy AI, the party AI. Besides which, the blasted input lag in DAO led to you either using the one or two very controllable AoEs, or just using other spell schools that didn't have any party effects.

[mickey111]

What AI? I play on the PC version with all tactics disabled. My people fight with whatever I want, and I keep them rooted to the spot and don't trust them to do anything by themselves until somewhere near the late game when mana and potions are expendable enough that I may set them to heal the wounded.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlanC9 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But I really don't consider it a problem. If someone wants to make a game more difficult or easy for himself, let him. All this "everyone is equal" schtick bothers me. Right now, everyone is pretty much a mage, just wrapped in a different looking package.

My problem with this is that it mixes up setting my difficulty level, which is an out-of-universe activity, with selecting my active party members, which is an in-universe activity. If Morrigan and Wynne are far more effective than any other companions, how do I RP a Warden risking his own life by not bringing them along all the time? But playing a warden who's too stupid to know that mages are really powerful? I can do that, but it's annoying.

But that is always the case. Your in-universe actions do affect difficulty. Side quests affect you XP and level, directly affecting difficulty. Your combat tactics directly affect difficulty.

As for an all-mage party. If you have enough mages, why not?
Mages are powerfull, but not invulnerable. There should be enough enemies that are good against mages (and I'm not talking only templars...enemies that are very fast and can stun can also render a mage very dead) that an all-mage party will run into trouble a more diverse or all-fighter party would breeze trough.



And personally, I'd like to play an underpowered class. Adds to the challenge and makes victory all the sweeter.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 23 septembre 2013 - 08:11 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

No, that decidedly sounds like trial-and-error tedium. If I wanted more of that I'd fire up Dark Souls.

Nah, more like "commons sense and pay attention to positioning".

There's really not much trial and error there, sicne it's all very easy to understand.

[Amfortas]

I personally found them well balanced in DAII with friendly fire on. I'm not sure how they are compared with other classes because my party had 3 mages and an archer, but I never felt overpowered like I did playing Origins.

In general I like mages balanced around cc and enemy debuffs maybe with some spike damage, but less overall dps than a warrior or a rogue. If there is some sort of consequence for playing a blood mage I wouldn't mind them being really overpowered.

[berelinde]

IMO, mages are fine the way they are. Rogues need to be dialed back a bit and warriors need a lot of help.

I'm running several games in parallel, each with a different class protagonist, doing all the same quests at the same time, so they're at roughly the same level.

Warrior-heavy party: Combat takes twice as long as the mage-heavy party and consists of slowly chipping away at enemy health. It's very boring.

Mage-heavy party: Combat is fast-paced and entertaining.

Rogue-heavy party: Combat takes half as long as the mage-heavy party. Vendetta+Assassinate+Twin Fangs=Combat is over.

[AlanC9]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


But that is always the case. Your in-universe actions do affect difficulty. Side quests affect you XP and level, directly affecting difficulty. Your combat tactics directly affect difficulty.

You're presuming no level scaling, which I also think is a bad idea. And combat tactics are an in-universe activity, so that's not a problem.

[Ieolus]

berelinde wrote...

IMO, mages are fine the way they are. Rogues need to be dialed back a bit and warriors need a lot of help.

I'm running several games in parallel, each with a different class protagonist, doing all the same quests at the same time, so they're at roughly the same level.

Warrior-heavy party: Combat takes twice as long as the mage-heavy party and consists of slowly chipping away at enemy health. It's very boring.

Mage-heavy party: Combat is fast-paced and entertaining.

Rogue-heavy party: Combat takes half as long as the mage-heavy party. Vendetta+Assassinate+Twin Fangs=Combat is over.

I don't think I see the problem, at all.  Are you saying that each class should be able to get through an encounter at the exact same pace?

As for boring, what do you suggest to "spice up" warrior combat?  Double the size of the two-handed swords and make them swing at warp 6?  (Sorry for the hyperbole, I coudn't help myself... the question is legit though).

Modifié par Ieolus, 23 septembre 2013 - 04:15 .

[Ieolus]

AlanC9 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


But that is always the case. Your in-universe actions do affect difficulty. Side quests affect you XP and level, directly affecting difficulty. Your combat tactics directly affect difficulty.

You're presuming no level scaling, which I also think is a bad idea. And combat tactics are an in-universe activity, so that's not a problem.

DA:I is confirmed to not have level scaling, atleast that is what I heard in the PAX video.  That is a good thing.  Level scaling stinks.

[animedreamer]

 I don't think mages are supposed to be Balanced against Warriors or Rogues, There Mages, there is a reason why people across the world fear them and their power. If Mages were of no more threat than a warrior or rogue then there should be no Circle of Magi, no Chantry oppression.  Mages should be incredibly powerful forces that can control the forces of nature if not then some. It diminishes the point of them being feared if on average a guy in  metal suit can best a group of mages or one very powerful mage.

[Abraham_uk]

Usergnome wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Bring back friendly fire. Mages can no longer blast everything without concern, thought, or strategy!

Not a bad idea!

Mages are supposed to be a huge danger to everyone, including their friends, enemies, and even themselves.

Having a mage cast their insane spells everywhere with reckless abandon and no planning/strategy should damage their allies, and having your spell interrupted should cause the spell to backfire and damage/debilitate the mage himself.

The way I see it, Magic SHOULD be strong. It can destroy, protect, control, and heal. But it should be difficult to control and extremely dangerous to get wrong... Which means backfiring spells and friendly fire, although I'm sure its more complicated than just that.

With the Frostbite engine, magic could result in realistic and consistent destruction.
Cast a fireball inside a cave, it reacts with the methane and causes a collapse killing everyone.

Cast a tempest in a town and you'll destroy half the buildings in that town.


The collateral damage will put many magic players off destructive magic, forcing them to look at other schools of magic.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 23 septembre 2013 - 05:53 .