227 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Bleachrude wrote...

I'm not sure how DA2 isn't a smaller scope Wulfram...

Note that I included a weasel word in there - obviously a city is smaller than a country, but it's not significant because it doesn't really change the type of story.  The geographical area over which a story is set isn't so important - simply imagine if Fereldan is shrunk in half, does that change DA:O at all?  DA2 is still Kings and Dragons and the fate of the World.

Hawe, in DA2 is NOT in total control of the setting...the warden, no matter how dumb you play him, IS in total control of the setting...

No matter what Hake does, Anders will always blow up the chantry and I actually LIKE the fact that the game world doesn't revolve around Hawke.

(Of course RPGs are a power fantasy...to me, trying to deny that seems weird. The more options to control the world, "better" the game is seen by most and that clearly is a power fantasy IMO.

I don't think a game needs to give the PC the power to control the world, but I do think they need to have a good degree of power over the story.  Which if you're doing a world-shaking story means a fair amount of power over the setting.  Do an actually personal story and the lack of control over the setting wouldn't matter.

Modifié par Wulfram, 22 septembre 2013 - 10:16 .

[WoolyJoe]

Sounds reasonable.

OP has my support, for whatever that's worth.

[StElmo]

AutumnWitch wrote...

I hope that DAI makes enough dosh that they can produce Epic and what I call "Intimate Character Driven" games at the same time so perhaps there could be possibly two DA2 style games that come out in the lengthy time it takes to make a more epic DAI type games. And the smaller games would fill in aspects that you need for the epic games.

Nice summation of my point :> I love smaller scope of DA2 and want to see it return, but do not begrudge people who love the big sweeping epic style of DA:O I love it too after all and am damned excited for DA:I, which looks to be going that direction for this entry to the series.

Modifié par StElmo, 22 septembre 2013 - 10:23 .

[phunx]

David7204 wrote...

I don't play RPGs so I can enjoy a 'fantasy' of 'power.' And I resent the implication that I do and others do.

The fact that there's no correlation between people enjoying BioWare games and games like Duke Nukum or Saints Row should be indicative of that.

Well on the surface I'd say I play them for the story, but underlying reasons might as well be a "power fantasy", I am fine with that, it's not an insult, I don't see why you're taking it as such.

I believe DA can do both. The thing is in a larger scale game, you can have all the elements of a smaller scale game.

[Bleachrude]

I think the problem people have with Hawke and his powerlessness is somewhat similar to why Vaan gets mocked in FFXII.

FFXII arguably has the most "grounded" plot of the FF series...and given that it is based on Ivalice (background world for the great FFT game), not surprising.

JRPGs aren't know for allowing player choice but Vaan gets hated since he is very incidental to the plot yet he's the main character (many fans think Balthier or Basch make more sense) but again, it was refreshing to actually play a character that the whole world didn't revolve around.

I'd argue that this is also why Spec Ops the line did so badly as well....

[Reaverwind]

 No. If I wanted to play a corridor game, I'd play a FPS.

[Navasha]

I personally don't need an epic storyline either. A smaller and more detailed personal story is just fine for me. I enjoyed the "tasks" in Assassins Creed 3 of just helping out around your small community just as much as the more epic tasks of defeating the British.

DA2 was actually a great game as far as most aspects were concerned. It just had a few glaring flaws that greatly overshadowed many of its good points.

I wouldn't mind if they alternated between epic stories and smaller personal stories that gave a lot more detailed vision of a particular area.

[Mr.House]

David7204 wrote...

I don't play RPGs so I can enjoy a 'fantasy' of 'power.' And I resent the implication that I do and others do.

The fact that there's no correlation between people enjoying BioWare games and games like Duke Nukum or Saints Row should be indicative of that.

What do you mean "games" like Duke Nukum and Saints Row? Have you even played them or are you just blowing smoke like normal?

[Angrywolves]

Nonsense.
Clearly they're not going to do that.
They're in Bethesda Skyrim mode.
Expect DA4 to be as large if not larger.
The EAVP Gibeau called DA a new IP.
While that's not true obviously Bioware is going big game style from now on.
There may be more large dlcs like Awakening, large for a dlc but of course smaller than DAO and DA2.
But the OP is wasting his time if he's asking for smaller DA games.
Just won't happen.

[Nefla]

The things I hated about DA2 had nothing to do with the fact that it was different from origins. If a game has a great story, exploration, is generally fun, etc I will like it. Da2 was promised as a personal story and before release one of the devs even said something along the lines of "unlike origins we don't want to have your character just wash up on a beach, etc..." We'll that's exactly what happened. You are given little to no history on the family or your character, you just wash up on a beach (road) with 3 random people you are told are your family 5 seconds before one is killed. At this point you have zero connection and don't care at all. Then we get to the story and each act does not connect to the others in the slightest and only the second act was in any way compelling although not much. The passage of time was not shown at all, you had the same merchants standing lifeless at the same stalls for years. None of the areas change for better or worse. The only thing different is the champion statue added at the docks and it doesn't even reflect the PCs gender or class. Everyone is even wearing the same clothes for like 8 supposed years.

The dungeons are painfully short, uninteresting, and not detailed or beautiful to look at, which is made worse by the fact that there are only like 4 of them used over and over and OVER. The quests themselves were mostly boring and many of the essential plot quests made no sense for you to be forced into doing( why am I forced to kill Tal'Vashoth for a dwarf when my goal is to make money and I already have enough?etc...). I did not feel compelled to do 99.9% of the quests.

The interesting bits of lore were also watered down heavily. The elves lived in a clean, nice looking area and were not shown as oppressed like in origins. The interesting moral dilemma of the circle of magi was replaced by insane murderer rapist monsters on both sides that made you just want to say screw you guys I'm leaving. Also for all the oppression cried about com mages, they were freely able to leave the circle for some reason unlike origins where they were locked in except for with special permission.

They had the opportunity to make a large and intricate city, a feast of exploration. They could have showed the passage of time and the effects of your decisions on parts of the city. They could have crafted a compelling storyline that made you care. They could have developed your history and family ties (instead the family drops like flies in an attempt to force drama in). They didn't do any of this.

I don't need to save the world to be satisfied, I need a story that makes sense, fits together, and makes me care.

[Angrywolves]

I never said open worlf.
Bioware clearly wants the Bethesda players.
They've pretty much said so.
shrugs.
This isn't a matter of personal preference .
It's what I believe Bioware is doing.
You can go online , read Gibeau 's comments about DAI being a new IP and draw your own conclusions .
shrugs.

[Angrywolves]

world.

[In Exile]

Melca36 wrote...
The thing with Hawke not being God-like....

He was the only one who had cutscenes where he or she killed the Rock Wraith

And it was the same with the High Dragon....

If they wanted to show Hawke being Ordinary then other people in the party should have been able to kill those bosses.

Hawke was a murder machine. That's part of what Bioware was breaking down, IMO. Like every other RPG protagonist before him, Hawke was amazing at killing and kind of likeable. 

That's the Warden too: killing machine. 

[In Exile]

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

I don't really accept the premise that DA2's story was notably smaller in scope. We've got the death of a Qunari "King" and what that game tells us is the start of a continent size war.
/quote]

Compared to the usual Bioware game where 2 or three kings die (and the Arishok was more like 1/3rd of a King or a really high level general - a pre-Ostagar Loghain vs. a Cailan), that's already dialed down. 

[Neon Rising Winter]

In Exile wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't really accept the premise that DA2's story was notably smaller in scope. We've got the death of a Qunari "King" and what that game tells us is the start of a continent size war.

Compared to the usual Bioware game where 2 or three kings die (and the Arishok was more like 1/3rd of a King or a really high level general - a pre-Ostagar Loghain vs. a Cailan), that's already dialed down. 

it's smaller in scope from the viewpoint of the protagonist. In DAO, from pretty much the start, you are the representative of a continent wide organisation, out to save the world from the archedemon, and that sits there throughout everything you do in the game. In DA2 you are firefighting an ongoing series of personal or city level issues. They may ultimately have much larger implications, but from the protagonist's viewpoint it's a very personally motivated story.

Modifié par Narrow Margin, 22 septembre 2013 - 04:14 .

[Gwydden]

I'd rather Bioware just told the story the way they want to tell it and don't handcuff themselves with something as simplistic as "large" game now, "small" game later. If you believe the developers, they already have a pretty clear cut idea of where they want to take the franchise, which makes it even more unlikely.

Frankly, I will be content with them trying with a different sort of protagonist each time, instead of repeating themselves over and over with specific epic hero and helpless bystander presets. The Warden was a talented (though not particularly noteworthy in the beginning) young man/woman who was forced into an ancient order of elite warriors, Hawke was fate's plaything, a helpless refugee who did the best he could to survive in a cursed city and incidentally ended up causing more than he had bargained for. Now it looks like we're up with the leader of a powerful organization of growing influence in a torn world.

That's the sort of think I'd like. I don't want to play another Warden, I don't want to play another Hawke. Dragon Age is a historical account of sorts, and we get to be in the skin of the most important people of the age. Seing the world from different perspectives is one of the things I enjoy most about these games.

[Gwydden]

MasterScribe wrote...
And don't restrict us to one race just because you're short on time for making NPCs react properly. 

It's more complicated than that, I think. Different races require more story reactivity, yes, and that alone makes it very resource and time consuming. But you also have to design the different models, armors, customization options, account for specific differences in cinematics, potentially pay for different voice actors and who knows what else.

I thought that the fact that they admitted they will be able to add it in Inquisition for the one year delay would make the most extremism realize they weren't just holding race selection back out of spite or lack of want.

[Gileadan]

In Exile wrote...
Hawke was a murder machine. That's part of what Bioware was breaking down, IMO. Like every other RPG protagonist before him, Hawke was amazing at killing and kind of likeable. 

Hawke was a murder machine because the game utterly failed to offer any other quest resolution than wave combat. Hawke couldn't be a diplomat because there was no opportunity to talk. Hawke could not use stealth and finesse because nothing of that was in the game. Hawke's huge kill count is just a side effect of the combat / game mechanics that sent wave after wave of mooks at him/her.

Example: the bunch of con men selling Andraste's ashes. I approached them, but before there was any dialogue I got ninjas from the rooftops by the dozens. Killed them all, quest over, no explanation why three charlatans had half an army hidden on the rooftops. Conclusion: protagonist is a killing machine and not good at anything else.

It's the game that was not good at anything else.

Modifié par Gileadan, 22 septembre 2013 - 04:25 .

[Angrywolves]

Most players would probably be content playing another warden.
DA2 needed more.
We needed to go to Starkhaven and other Free Marches Cities.
We needed new not reused scenes, party membes being able to change equipment , and an outcome dependent on hawke's actions.

[Gwydden]

MasterScribe wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...
And don't restrict us to one race just because you're short on time for making NPCs react properly. 

It's more complicated than that, I think. Different races require more story reactivity, yes, and that alone makes it very resource and time consuming. But you also have to design the different models, armors, customization options, account for specific differences in cinematics, potentially pay for different voice actors and who knows what else.

I thought that the fact that they admitted they will be able to add it in Inquisition for the one year delay would make the most extremism realize they weren't just holding race selection back out of spite or lack of want.

The fact that DA2 was released a mere 6 months after DAO's last DLC (Witch Hunt) destroys any sympathy I have for the developers.

They could have delayed DA2, but they didn't. The implication is that BioWare or EA wanted to capitalize on DAO's success as soon as possible.

Who knows if they originally intended to churn out one every year....

I agree they shouldn't have rushed the game so, but I think the reactions to DA2 have made that extensively clear to them.