227 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Gileadan wrote...
Hawke was a murder machine because the game utterly failed to offer any other quest resolution than wave combat. Hawke couldn't be a diplomat because there was no opportunity to talk. Hawke could not use stealth and finesse because nothing of that was in the game. Hawke's huge kill count is just a side effect of the combat / game mechanics that sent wave after wave of mooks at him/her.

It has nothing to do with the wave combat. Like the Warden, Hawke solved every single quest through murder with the very rare dialogue at the end. 

Paragon of her kind? Widespread murder in Orzammar, including most of the carta, and hundreds of darkspawn in the deep roads.
Broken Circle? Murder abominations, blood mages and, potentially, some circle mages too.
Arl Eamon? Murder a lot of cultists, (potentially) a child, at least one demon, and (potentially) some weird fade guardian. 
Nature of the beast? Murder a lot of werewolves, murder some trees, (potentially) murder the Dalish. 
Landsmeet? Murder Tevinters, murder guardsmen, murder Arl Howe, (potentially) murder your way out of Fort Drakon, (potentailly) murder some elves to become more powerful... 

... and culminate everything with (potentially) murdering Loghain after single combat at the lands meet and killing the archdemon.

Every single thing the Warden does is about killing and death. Sometimes, the Warden can persuade a few people not to fight as an alternative to their death after killing all of their troops without exception. 

[Gwydden]

In Exile wrote...

Gileadan wrote...
Hawke was a murder machine because the game utterly failed to offer any other quest resolution than wave combat. Hawke couldn't be a diplomat because there was no opportunity to talk. Hawke could not use stealth and finesse because nothing of that was in the game. Hawke's huge kill count is just a side effect of the combat / game mechanics that sent wave after wave of mooks at him/her.

It has nothing to do with the wave combat. Like the Warden, Hawke solved every single quest through murder with the very rare dialogue at the end. 

Paragon of her kind? Widespread murder in Orzammar, including most of the carta, and hundreds of darkspawn in the deep roads.
Broken Circle? Murder abominations, blood mages and, potentially, some circle mages too.
Arl Eamon? Murder a lot of cultists, (potentially) a child, at least one demon, and (potentially) some weird fade guardian. 
Nature of the beast? Murder a lot of werewolves, murder some trees, (potentially) murder the Dalish. 
Landsmeet? Murder Tevinters, murder guardsmen, murder Arl Howe, (potentially) murder your way out of Fort Drakon, (potentailly) murder some elves to become more powerful... 

... and culminate everything with (potentially) murdering Loghain after single combat at the lands meet and killing the archdemon.

Every single thing the Warden does is about killing and death. Sometimes, the Warden can persuade a few people not to fight as an alternative to their death after killing all of their troops without exception. 

The Landsmeet itself is a poor example since you could actually convince the people there to support you through dialogue. You could complete that quest fighting only Loghain and you didn't even have to kill him.

I can't remember any DA2 equivalent of that quest.

[Gwydden]

MasterScribe wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

I agree they shouldn't have rushed the game so, but I think the reactions to DA2 have made that extensively clear to them.

If they had an actual plan ahead of time, then rushing the game might not have been a problem.

Looking at the old DA2 dev diaries, it doesn't seem like they even knew exactly what they wanted to make until near the end of 2010 (when the dev diaries started being released). And DA2 was released in March 2011.

There's even concept art of an elven player character and a Qunari companion in those dev diaries.

Well, plans don't come out of thin air. You have to think of them and settle for one, and for that you need time. Also, I had understood that preproduction (whatever that's suposed to mean) of DA2 began before DAO was released?

[Herr Uhl]

Gwydden wrote...

The Landsmeet itself is a poor example since you could actually convince the people there to support you through dialogue. You could complete that quest fighting only Loghain and you didn't even have to kill him.

I can't remember any DA2 equivalent of that quest.

He didn't mention killing people in a brawl at the landsmeet. He mentioned all the people you have to kill to get there.

[Gwydden]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

The Landsmeet itself is a poor example since you could actually convince the people there to support you through dialogue. You could complete that quest fighting only Loghain and you didn't even have to kill him.

I can't remember any DA2 equivalent of that quest.

He didn't mention killing people in a brawl at the landsmeet. He mentioned all the people you have to kill to get there.

Yeah, I know, I was referring to the Loghain part.

[Herr Uhl]

Gwydden wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

The Landsmeet itself is a poor example since you could actually convince the people there to support you through dialogue. You could complete that quest fighting only Loghain and you didn't even have to kill him.

I can't remember any DA2 equivalent of that quest.

He didn't mention killing people in a brawl at the landsmeet. He mentioned all the people you have to kill to get there.

Yeah, I know, I was referring to the Loghain part.

Come to think about it, you can avoid having to kill Merril's entire clan through dialogue.

[Gwydden]

Fighting, and as a result killing things, is a big part of the game, and that naturally reflects on the characters. Still, I agree that more, different ways of solving situations would be nice. Overusing it it's not a good idea either, though. If you don't believe me, try to win Deus Ex: Revolution using only stealth and not ever killing a soul outside of boss fights. Man, I was glad when finished that game.

Modifié par Gwydden, 22 septembre 2013 - 05:00 .

[Gwydden]

MasterScribe wrote...
That doesn't have international ramifications, though. The Landsmeet did.

Now that I think of it, the closest thing to the Landsmeet in DA2 was the confontation with the Arishok at the end of Act 2. However, whethere you ended up killing only the Arishok or the entire Qunari garrison wasn't nearly as determined by preparation and dialogue as the Landsmeet outcome was.

[Herr Uhl]

MasterScribe wrote...

That doesn't have international ramifications, though. The Landsmeet did.

Since when was that a pre-requisite?

[Herr Uhl]

MasterScribe wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

That doesn't have international ramifications, though. The Landsmeet did.

Since when was that a pre-requisite?

I'm just saying that they are circumstantially dissimilar.

Allowing Merrill's clan to live is only nominally diplomatic.

It isn't a political entity like Ferelden.

There are essentially no consequences to your decision with the clan.

There are essentially no consequences to having a brawl either.

[The Six Path of Pain]

No! I want a war with the Qunari in the next game That would be effing epic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Herr Uhl]

MasterScribe wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

There are essentially no consequences to having a brawl either.

Deciding the ruler of a kingdom is pretty important. 

But you do that regardless of the brawl.

Edit: You can be the world's worst diplomat and still get your way by killing things. And you don't get any repercussions.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 22 septembre 2013 - 05:36 .

[Gileadan]

In Exile wrote...

It has nothing to do with the wave combat. Like the Warden, Hawke solved every single quest through murder with the very rare dialogue at the end. 

Paragon of her kind? Widespread murder in Orzammar, including most of the carta, and hundreds of darkspawn in the deep roads.
Broken Circle? Murder abominations, blood mages and, potentially, some circle mages too.
Arl Eamon? Murder a lot of cultists, (potentially) a child, at least one demon, and (potentially) some weird fade guardian. 
Nature of the beast? Murder a lot of werewolves, murder some trees, (potentially) murder the Dalish. 
Landsmeet? Murder Tevinters, murder guardsmen, murder Arl Howe, (potentially) murder your way out of Fort Drakon, (potentailly) murder some elves to become more powerful... 

... and culminate everything with (potentially) murdering Loghain after single combat at the lands meet and killing the archdemon.

Every single thing the Warden does is about killing and death. Sometimes, the Warden can persuade a few people not to fight as an alternative to their death after killing all of their troops without exception. 

The difference between the Warden and Hawke are all the "potentially"s. There's a difference between choosing to kill someone you don't have to, the killing of story antagonists (darkspawn, demons, abominations,Howe's goons, etc) and solving *every single quest* with a corpse pile that is counted in dozens. The warden could make deals with the dragon cultists, with Tevinter slavers, could talk bandits into standing down, and so on. Hawke couldn't do that. The entire gameplay was about "follow quest GPS to next slaughter zone".

We may not be getting anywhere here though. All I can say is that to me it definitely felt different, but YMMV and such.

[jennamarae]

I don't really consider fighting back against legions of people/creatures who try to kill you on sight to be murder, but that's a matter of semantics I guess.

To me, DA2 felt more like Hawke was a side character we followed around rather than the main character. His/her presence was rather incidental to the plot. I'd prefer not to have every other DA game be where you play a character so ineffective that they could die in the opening scene and it not make a difference to how the rest of the game plays out. Given more time for development it likely wouldn't have felt like that, but I personally vastly prefer playing characters who are at least moderately capable of resolving issues they take on.

[Lord Raijin]

StElmo wrote...

I would say DA2 was considered negatively because people were expecting DA:O "2" my proposition is we have both kinds of games, just this time round, people know what to expect and will enjoy it for what it is.

I think it was the claustrophobic effect that had most people not liking DA2. You were stuck in 1 city, and wasn't able to travel; only in the deep roads without counting the DLC's.

I don't quite understand, but being stuck playing as human PC named Hawke really got on peoples nerves. IMO I honestly don't see a problem with it.

[Dave of Canada]

Dragon Age 2's story could've been infinitely more interesting, the potential behind it was amazing and they could've done a lot with it. Unfortunately, execution was less than desirable and it made the story feel very barebones but it was BioWare trying to step out of their safety bubble.

I'd love to see a second attempt at it with resources and time allocated to it rather than dismissing anything that isn't large-scale "save the world".

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 septembre 2013 - 06:45 .

[Wulfram]

I don't know if the 1 city thing was an issue in itself. I mean, are people saying that GTA V is claustrophobic?

Or, more what I was hoping for, Athkatla in BG2 - even if you didn't have the trip to Spellhold and the underdark, I still don't think that would be too small.

But I'm not the person to judge, I'm not an exploration guy.

[Vilegrim]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

In terms of scale for story-centric games, I generally prefer somewhere in between the 2 with more personal stories, i.e. V:tmB.

Excellent example. Bloodlines is a game that does a pretty exceptional job in terms of its scope.

It does a good job of making you feel involved in events of a waste scope and scale without making you feel like the little part you play is worthless, or that you are powerless.  Now it has been mentioned some one will reinstall it, you know this to be true.

[AresKeith]

StElmo wrote...

DA2 also made the world large through time, rather than space. Following 10+ years of the characters lives was very new and excit

Those time skips were terrible

But I don't mind a "small scale" game as long as the area is big enough because Kirkwall was just bad

[In Exile]

Gwydden wrote...
The Landsmeet itself is a poor example since you could actually convince the people there to support you through dialogue. You could complete that quest fighting only Loghain and you didn't even have to kill him.

I can't remember any DA2 equivalent of that quest.

The Arishok. If Isabella returns with the Tome, you can surrender her and have the Arishok and his men leave without a duel. He has the item he wants, the justice he thinks he should have, and Kirkwall is saved. 

And if you object by saying that to get to that point Hawke had to kill his way across Kirkwall.. then I point out to the carnage that you have to inflict in Denerim to even get close to the landsmeet, including killing everyone in Howe's estate.

Gileadan wrote...
The difference between the Warden and Hawke are all the "potentially"s. There's a difference between choosing to kill someone you don't have to, the killing of story antagonists (darkspawn, demons, abominations,Howe's goons, etc) and solving *every single quest* with a corpse pile that is counted in dozens.

Do you honestly want me to list the people you could choose not to kill? Let's go off the top of my head:

• Javaris Tintop
• Thrask and Karras in Act I
• Idunna, the exotic wonder.
• The slavers who kidnapped Feynriel.
• In fact, the slavers leading up to Feynriel, who you can let go.
• The Arishok.
• Gascard DuPuis (depending on companion and personality)
• Danarius (by giving him Fenris.

The warden could make deals with the dragon cultists, with Tevinter slavers, could talk bandits into standing down, and so on. Hawke couldn't do that. The entire gameplay was about "follow quest GPS to next slaughter zone".

Are you seriously going to say that the person who could give his companion into slavery to Danarius couldn't make deals with Tevinter slavers? 

And I just gave you a really long list of where this can happen in DA2.

We may not be getting anywhere here though. All I can say is that to me it definitely felt different, but YMMV and such.

I'm not saying you're wrong about how you feel about DA:O. I'm just saying you're factually incorrect about your options to kill and not kill in DA2 vs. DA:O. 

Modifié par In Exile, 22 septembre 2013 - 07:11 .