177 réponses à ce sujet

[mrao]

marshalleck wrote...

The "neural net" was never a control method.

Wasn't the neural net what empowered the Geth to begin with?

[marshalleck]

mrao wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The "neural net" was never a control method.

Wasn't the neural net what empowered the Geth to begin with?

It's what gave rise to their intelligence, but it was never a means of controlling or deactivating them. I assume they had off switches.

[Sialboats]

marshalleck wrote...

mrao wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The "neural net" was never a control method.

Wasn't the neural net what empowered the Geth to begin with?

It's what gave rise to their intelligence, but it was never a means of controlling or deactivating them. I assume they had off switches.

Exactly.

So you have to gather them all up... put them into neat orderly lines... maybe get some big ovens?

[Handren]

mrao wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The "neural net" was never a control method.

Wasn't the neural net what empowered the Geth to begin with?

Not really. there is no "core geth", their connection allows them to share processor power to leave  room for higher thinking.


Presumably, the geth got wind of the plan, whatever it was to shut down the geth, before the quarians could enact it.

[GnusmasTHX]

Obviously the quarians destroyed the geth power source; ie. their Sun during Operation Darkstorm, in an effort to starve them out of energy. So then the geth started harvesting quarian specimens and farmed them for their bio electricity. Eventually the geth learned that to maximize the yield of energy produced from a single quarian, the mind and body had to be stimulated; or at least the mind enough so that the body believes it. The geth then created a virtual construct called the Matrix, where quarians were led to believe the world they knew before the geth uprising was in fact intact, and were living it out as normal.

[Novacain999]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Emperor Mars wrote...
Liara fills parts of that being smart and energetic but she isnt the strongest character (atleast in ME1) when we find her we have to get her out of her own mess 

...

Liara = Having a bounty put on your head by Saren/Benezia who purposefully sent geth after you. In defense she activated an impenetrable Prothean shield doo-hickey, saving her life for quite a long time.

Tali = Hacking a geth brain thingum and trying to sell the information the Shadow Broker. Get's double crossed for making bad deals, and is about to get killed by a bunch of assassins when you save her.

Getting Liara out her own mess? Please.

Lets look at things in a less "Slanted" perspective.

Tali: Was smart enough to get a Geth away from a group, killed it, and was able to pull a piece of information from it's hardrive, a very hard process. This information that she pulls is the only thing that we know of in this game that could convince the Council that Saren has gone Rogue. She attempts to make a deal, using the best means possible, and the only way she seemingly could keep her safe from teh run, and that is trying to sell the information to the Shadow Broker. However, Saren's influence reaches further then she knows, and Fist bestrays the Shadow Broker to set her up (this all happens after atleast on scrap on the Citadel in which she succesfully defended herself). In the on going pursuit, she buys herself some time, though whether or not she could have actually help of the 3 attackers is unknown, but most likely not. However, Shepard saves her, and the information she has leads to Saren being revoked of his Spectre status, and Shepard being named a Spectre himself. Without Shepard, Tali probably dies. Without Tali, Shepard can't stop Saren

Liara: Liara was on a dig site when the geth ambushed her, much to her surprise, and she set up a security field to defend herself, a very smart move. However, she also locked herself up in a field herself, basically leaving her helpless for god knows how long, until Shepard comes to save the day. Without Shepard, Liara dies. Without Liara and her Prothean knowledge, Shepard can't stop Saren.

Without Shepard, they are both 6 feet under. Without both of them, the Reapers win. There. Problem solved.

[RyuKazuha]

Sialboats wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

mrao wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The "neural net" was never a control method.

Wasn't the neural net what empowered the Geth to begin with?

It's what gave rise to their intelligence, but it was never a means of controlling or deactivating them. I assume they had off switches.

Exactly.

So you have to gather them all up... put them into neat orderly lines... maybe get some big ovens?

Maybe just a simple shutdown-sequence via radio. We don't know how many Geth were actually deactivated. Maybe most of them reprogrammed themselves before the signal was sent.

And instead of ovens, they'd maybe used melting pods, but however, the reference to the genocide an the jews during WWII is not something you've to relate to in every single post. I think most of the users here now about the concept of genocide. ~~

[GnusmasTHX]

Novacain999 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Emperor Mars wrote...
Liara fills parts of that being smart and energetic but she isnt the strongest character (atleast in ME1) when we find her we have to get her out of her own mess 

...

Liara = Having a bounty put on your head by Saren/Benezia who purposefully sent geth after you. In defense she activated an impenetrable Prothean shield doo-hickey, saving her life for quite a long time.

Tali = Hacking a geth brain thingum and trying to sell the information the Shadow Broker. Get's double crossed for making bad deals, and is about to get killed by a bunch of assassins when you save her.

Getting Liara out her own mess? Please.

Lets look at things in a less "Slanted" perspective.

Tali: Was smart enough to get a Geth away from a group, killed it, and was able to pull a piece of information from it's hardrive, a very hard process. This information that she pulls is the only thing that we know of in this game that could convince the Council that Saren has gone Rogue. She attempts to make a deal, using the best means possible, and the only way she seemingly could keep her safe from teh run, and that is trying to sell the information to the Shadow Broker. However, Saren's influence reaches further then she knows, and Fist bestrays the Shadow Broker to set her up (this all happens after atleast on scrap on the Citadel in which she succesfully defended herself). In the on going pursuit, she buys herself some time, though whether or not she could have actually help of the 3 attackers is unknown, but most likely not. However, Shepard saves her, and the information she has leads to Saren being revoked of his Spectre status, and Shepard being named a Spectre himself. Without Shepard, Tali probably dies. Without Tali, Shepard can't stop Saren

Liara: Liara was on a dig site when the geth ambushed her, much to her surprise, and she set up a security field to defend herself, a very smart move. However, she also locked herself up in a field herself, basically leaving her helpless for god knows how long, until Shepard comes to save the day. Without Shepard, Liara dies. Without Liara and her Prothean knowledge, Shepard can't stop Saren.

Without Shepard, they are both 6 feet under. Without both of them, the Reapers win. There. Problem solved.

Completely irrelevant. The fact is that Tali PUT herself in a position of danger. Liara, on the other hand, was forced into one.

Thus the original "getting herself out of her own mess" statement is completely erroneous.

That's like saying if someone get's shot during a bank robbery it's that persons fault for going to the bank. And someone who gets shot walking into a bank DURING a bank robbery can't possibly shoulder and responsibility for the outcome. (That person happens to attack the bank robbers and take their money and tries to use it herself, pretty much.)

So really; you can't possibly argue that Liara got herself into that mess without saying the same for Tali. 

I hardly my find my reasoning slanted. If you think I'm biased toward Liara you're mistaken, given that both were in my squad throughout the entirety of ME1, and are my favorite character aside from Wrex.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:08 .

[Novacain999]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Novacain999 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Emperor Mars wrote...
Liara fills parts of that being smart and energetic but she isnt the strongest character (atleast in ME1) when we find her we have to get her out of her own mess 

...

Liara = Having a bounty put on your head by Saren/Benezia who purposefully sent geth after you. In defense she activated an impenetrable Prothean shield doo-hickey, saving her life for quite a long time.

Tali = Hacking a geth brain thingum and trying to sell the information the Shadow Broker. Get's double crossed for making bad deals, and is about to get killed by a bunch of assassins when you save her.

Getting Liara out her own mess? Please.

Lets look at things in a less "Slanted" perspective.

Tali: Was smart enough to get a Geth away from a group, killed it, and was able to pull a piece of information from it's hardrive, a very hard process. This information that she pulls is the only thing that we know of in this game that could convince the Council that Saren has gone Rogue. She attempts to make a deal, using the best means possible, and the only way she seemingly could keep her safe from teh run, and that is trying to sell the information to the Shadow Broker. However, Saren's influence reaches further then she knows, and Fist bestrays the Shadow Broker to set her up (this all happens after atleast on scrap on the Citadel in which she succesfully defended herself). In the on going pursuit, she buys herself some time, though whether or not she could have actually help of the 3 attackers is unknown, but most likely not. However, Shepard saves her, and the information she has leads to Saren being revoked of his Spectre status, and Shepard being named a Spectre himself. Without Shepard, Tali probably dies. Without Tali, Shepard can't stop Saren

Liara: Liara was on a dig site when the geth ambushed her, much to her surprise, and she set up a security field to defend herself, a very smart move. However, she also locked herself up in a field herself, basically leaving her helpless for god knows how long, until Shepard comes to save the day. Without Shepard, Liara dies. Without Liara and her Prothean knowledge, Shepard can't stop Saren.

Without Shepard, they are both 6 feet under. Without both of them, the Reapers win. There. Problem solved.

Completely irrelevant. The fact is that Tali PUT herself in a position of danger. Liara, on the other hand, was forced into one.

Thus the original "getting herself out of her own mess" statement is completely erroneous.

That's like saying if someone get's shot during a bank robbery it's that persons fault for going to the bank. And someone who gets shot walking into a bank DURING a bank robbery can't possibly shoulder and responsibility for the outcome. (That person happens to attack the bank robbers and take their money and tries to use it herself, pretty much.)

So really; you can't possibly argue that Liara got herself into that mess without saying the same for Tali. 

I hardly my find my reasoning slanted. If you think I'm biased toward Liara you're mistaken, given that both were in my squad throughout the entirety of ME1, and are my favorite character aside from Wrex.

No, what's "completely irrelevant" is this entire discussion point, honestly. Who cares if they put themselves into that situation. How was Tali supposed to know that the 1 piece of information she found searching the Geths files would mark her as a dead woman by one of the most dangerous people in the galaxy? From that point on, going to the Shadow Broker for protection was clearly the right move.

Honestly, why are we even talking about this?

[GnusmasTHX]

Novacain999 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Novacain999 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Emperor Mars wrote...
Liara fills parts of that being smart and energetic but she isnt the strongest character (atleast in ME1) when we find her we have to get her out of her own mess 

...

Liara = Having a bounty put on your head by Saren/Benezia who purposefully sent geth after you. In defense she activated an impenetrable Prothean shield doo-hickey, saving her life for quite a long time.

Tali = Hacking a geth brain thingum and trying to sell the information the Shadow Broker. Get's double crossed for making bad deals, and is about to get killed by a bunch of assassins when you save her.

Getting Liara out her own mess? Please.

Lets look at things in a less "Slanted" perspective.

Tali: Was smart enough to get a Geth away from a group, killed it, and was able to pull a piece of information from it's hardrive, a very hard process. This information that she pulls is the only thing that we know of in this game that could convince the Council that Saren has gone Rogue. She attempts to make a deal, using the best means possible, and the only way she seemingly could keep her safe from teh run, and that is trying to sell the information to the Shadow Broker. However, Saren's influence reaches further then she knows, and Fist bestrays the Shadow Broker to set her up (this all happens after atleast on scrap on the Citadel in which she succesfully defended herself). In the on going pursuit, she buys herself some time, though whether or not she could have actually help of the 3 attackers is unknown, but most likely not. However, Shepard saves her, and the information she has leads to Saren being revoked of his Spectre status, and Shepard being named a Spectre himself. Without Shepard, Tali probably dies. Without Tali, Shepard can't stop Saren

Liara: Liara was on a dig site when the geth ambushed her, much to her surprise, and she set up a security field to defend herself, a very smart move. However, she also locked herself up in a field herself, basically leaving her helpless for god knows how long, until Shepard comes to save the day. Without Shepard, Liara dies. Without Liara and her Prothean knowledge, Shepard can't stop Saren.

Without Shepard, they are both 6 feet under. Without both of them, the Reapers win. There. Problem solved.

Completely irrelevant. The fact is that Tali PUT herself in a position of danger. Liara, on the other hand, was forced into one.

Thus the original "getting herself out of her own mess" statement is completely erroneous.

That's like saying if someone get's shot during a bank robbery it's that persons fault for going to the bank. And someone who gets shot walking into a bank DURING a bank robbery can't possibly shoulder and responsibility for the outcome. (That person happens to attack the bank robbers and take their money and tries to use it herself, pretty much.)

So really; you can't possibly argue that Liara got herself into that mess without saying the same for Tali. 

I hardly my find my reasoning slanted. If you think I'm biased toward Liara you're mistaken, given that both were in my squad throughout the entirety of ME1, and are my favorite character aside from Wrex.

No, what's "completely irrelevant" is this entire discussion point, honestly. Who cares if they put themselves into that situation. How was Tali supposed to know that the 1 piece of information she found searching the Geths files would mark her as a dead woman by one of the most dangerous people in the galaxy? From that point on, going to the Shadow Broker for protection was clearly the right move.

Honestly, why are we even talking about this?

Honestly, you started it.

Also; if you read the original post, it was part of the thread creators hypothesis into why everyone likes Tali. It's completely relevant if you know how to follow your own discussion. Or at least NOTICE that I quoted the OP. He seems to think it's indicative of strength of character, and that Tali has it whereas Liara doesn't citing obvious misinformation. 

It's also attacking geth in the first place that would constitute "getting herself into her own mess"... Whereas Liara was no doubt reading ancient Prothean things and touching artifacts.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:20 .

[Novacain999]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Novacain999 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Novacain999 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Emperor Mars wrote...
Liara fills parts of that being smart and energetic but she isnt the strongest character (atleast in ME1) when we find her we have to get her out of her own mess 

...

Liara = Having a bounty put on your head by Saren/Benezia who purposefully sent geth after you. In defense she activated an impenetrable Prothean shield doo-hickey, saving her life for quite a long time.

Tali = Hacking a geth brain thingum and trying to sell the information the Shadow Broker. Get's double crossed for making bad deals, and is about to get killed by a bunch of assassins when you save her.

Getting Liara out her own mess? Please.

Lets look at things in a less "Slanted" perspective.

Tali: Was smart enough to get a Geth away from a group, killed it, and was able to pull a piece of information from it's hardrive, a very hard process. This information that she pulls is the only thing that we know of in this game that could convince the Council that Saren has gone Rogue. She attempts to make a deal, using the best means possible, and the only way she seemingly could keep her safe from teh run, and that is trying to sell the information to the Shadow Broker. However, Saren's influence reaches further then she knows, and Fist bestrays the Shadow Broker to set her up (this all happens after atleast on scrap on the Citadel in which she succesfully defended herself). In the on going pursuit, she buys herself some time, though whether or not she could have actually help of the 3 attackers is unknown, but most likely not. However, Shepard saves her, and the information she has leads to Saren being revoked of his Spectre status, and Shepard being named a Spectre himself. Without Shepard, Tali probably dies. Without Tali, Shepard can't stop Saren

Liara: Liara was on a dig site when the geth ambushed her, much to her surprise, and she set up a security field to defend herself, a very smart move. However, she also locked herself up in a field herself, basically leaving her helpless for god knows how long, until Shepard comes to save the day. Without Shepard, Liara dies. Without Liara and her Prothean knowledge, Shepard can't stop Saren.

Without Shepard, they are both 6 feet under. Without both of them, the Reapers win. There. Problem solved.

Completely irrelevant. The fact is that Tali PUT herself in a position of danger. Liara, on the other hand, was forced into one.

Thus the original "getting herself out of her own mess" statement is completely erroneous.

That's like saying if someone get's shot during a bank robbery it's that persons fault for going to the bank. And someone who gets shot walking into a bank DURING a bank robbery can't possibly shoulder and responsibility for the outcome. (That person happens to attack the bank robbers and take their money and tries to use it herself, pretty much.)

So really; you can't possibly argue that Liara got herself into that mess without saying the same for Tali. 

I hardly my find my reasoning slanted. If you think I'm biased toward Liara you're mistaken, given that both were in my squad throughout the entirety of ME1, and are my favorite character aside from Wrex.

No, what's "completely irrelevant" is this entire discussion point, honestly. Who cares if they put themselves into that situation. How was Tali supposed to know that the 1 piece of information she found searching the Geths files would mark her as a dead woman by one of the most dangerous people in the galaxy? From that point on, going to the Shadow Broker for protection was clearly the right move.

Honestly, why are we even talking about this?

Honestly, you started it.

Also; if you read the original post, it was part of the thread creators hypothesis into why everyone likes Tali. It's completely relevant if you know how to follow your own discussion. Or at least NOTICE that I quoted the OP.

I did, but it's not worth arguing over. And, honestly, if you asked me "who was more likely to survive their situation without Shepards help, Tali or Liara" the answer is clearly Tali.

And I didn't start anything, I was trying to show that arguing over who was in a more hopeless situation isn't going to get anything accomplished. They were both basically completely boned, but if you didn't save them, Shepard wouldn't have been able to Stop Saren. They are both equally important characters in the plot.

Modifié par Novacain999, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:21 .

[GnusmasTHX]

Then why respond at all if you think this point of discussion is pointless? Would I have responded again to this line of discussion otherwise if you didn't?

The point isn't whether or not Tali or Liara are important characters, or who would survive the situations they were in when you found them in ME1.

The point was that the OP says that Liara was at fault and responsible for the danger she was in, and since it's a comparative assessment between at least one and another character, then he's suggesting that Tali either wasn't responsible at all, or should be less accountable for her situation than Liara. Which clearly isn't the case. If he's trying to build a hypothesis on why people like Tali, then it's relevant and useful to discuss where he's wrong, maybe misinformed, or where opinions clash to give him a different viewpoint. He could argue that the direct danger Liara faced was her fault, activating the shield (malnourishment), whereas Tali was getting shot at by someone else... But other than that, I don't see how the original statement really holds up.

Also; Tali is a useful party member, which the OP seems to have neglected in his original post.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:33 .

[Novacain999]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Then why respond at all if you think this point of discussion is pointless? Would I have responded again to this line of discussion otherwise if you didn't?

The point isn't whether or not Tali or Liara are important characters, or who would survive the situations they were in when you found them in ME1.

The point was that the OP says that Liara was at fault and responsible for the danger she was in, and since it's a comparative assessment between at least one and another character, then he's suggesting that Tali either wasn't responsible at all, or should be less accountable for her situation than Liara. Which clearly isn't the case. If he's trying to build a hypothesis on why people like Tali, then it's relevant and useful to discuss where he's wrong, maybe misinformed, or where opinions clash to give him a different viewpoint. He could argue that the direct danger Liara faced was her fault, activating the shield (malnourishment), whereas Tali was getting shot at by someone else... But other than that, I don't see how the original statement really holds up.

Also; Tali is a useful party member, which the OP seems to have neglected in his original post.

My problem wasn't with you, it's that you were discussing something that basically had no right answer.

Your right. Blaming Liara isn't smart, and it wasn't her fault. But to say Tali was at fault for her situation, which you've basically been arguing as a counter point, is basically equally as false. Blaming Tali for just being lucky enough to pull the 1 in a million shot of getting the right piece of info isn't much further away from blaming Liara for being Benezia's daughter and being a Prothean expert. Both are huge coincidences, and neither are to blame.

[Schneidend]

I love her interjections in conversations. Her wit's not as acerbic as Ashley or Wrex's, but she does have the occasional barb for people like Anoleis. She's also a bit more of an Everyman than Shep is, a college-aged girl exploring the world, trying to do something important with herself, which a lot of gamers, myself included, can probably relate to moreso than some of the other squaddies. Also, she's enthusiastic about the fighting and the danger without being bloodthirsty, callous, or reckless. The voice and DEM HIPS don't hurt, either. Her character design is just plain cool overall.

She's a space gypsy tech geek with a shotgun. What's not to love?

[Aristorum]

She had me at "YOUR SHIP IS AMAZING."

I honestly didn't like her at first but once I heard that line; BAM. I melted.

[Willowhugger]

In general, I find the Quarians more sympathetic than the Geth.  The **** analogies fall flat with the fact that the Quaerians have no reason not assume that there's only a few sentient Geth in their ranks.  Also, that sapience in the vast majority of the robots won't pose a severe danger to their society.  We've seen how other AI react when they become self aware, by MURDERING their owners (The Moon, the one on Citadel station).

It was morally wrong to do what they did.  But the **** analogy is somewhat insulting.  Especially given the fact that the only ones who attempted genocide was actually the Geth themselves.

[Novacain999]

Willowhugger wrote...

It was morally wrong to do what they did.  But the **** analogy is somewhat insulting.  Especially given the fact that the only ones who attempted genocide was actually the Geth themselves.

The Quarians tried to whipe out a group of creatures who had gained self-awareness. That registers as genocide.

[marshalleck]

Novacain999 wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

It was morally wrong to do what they did.  But the **** analogy is somewhat insulting.  Especially given the fact that the only ones who attempted genocide was actually the Geth themselves.

The Quarians tried to whipe out a group of creatures who had gained self-awareness. That registers as genocide.

Yay, this argument again.

It was only a few individuals, and what became of them nobody knows. Tali says the quarians believed most of the geth had not become sentient.

It's Tali vs. the codex vs. forumites. Pick whoever makes you feel morally superior.

[SnakeStrike8]

It's interesting to note that many players who didn't like Tali felt this way because she agrees with how her 300+ years dead ancestors dealth with what was essentially a slave uprising. That tells me something about all you Tali dislikers...

I, personally, favour Tali because she was probably the ONLY person in your team who followed you to stop the Reapers. No-one else had that motivation. Garrus came along because he wanted to stop Saren, Ashley and Kaidan came along because those were their orders, Wrex came along because he wanted to shoot things and get his blood pumping, and Liara came along because 'there's something compelling about you, Shepard'.

[Novacain999]

marshalleck wrote...

Novacain999 wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

It was morally wrong to do what they did.  But the **** analogy is somewhat insulting.  Especially given the fact that the only ones who attempted genocide was actually the Geth themselves.

The Quarians tried to whipe out a group of creatures who had gained self-awareness. That registers as genocide.

Yay, this argument again.

It was only a few individuals, and what became of them nobody knows. Tali says the quarians believed most of the geth had not become sentient.

It's Tali vs. the codex vs. forumites. Pick whoever makes you feel morally superior.

I'm not a big fan of the argument myself, but hey, anything to pass the time till I'm playing ME2

The problem with your argument is that you said "Most of the Geth had not become sentient" as long as this statement isnt' "All of the Geth", it's still genocide.

[marshalleck]

Novacain999 wrote...

I'm not a big fan of the argument myself, but hey, anything to pass the time till I'm playing ME2

The problem with your argument is that you said "Most of the Geth had not become sentient" as long as this statement isnt' "All of the Geth", it's still genocide.

And how many sapients did your Shepard kill in order to save all that (s)he and every other member of the galactic community knows and holds dear?

The quarian assessment of all the available, relevant information lead them to believe that allowing the geth to broadly attain consciousness posed an existential risk to their people. They acted, and unfortunately found out that they had underestimated the geth and paid dearly for it. Personally I don't blame them, since doing nothing would eventually have had the same result.

[Ettecoud]

On that note, if they did manage to kill all the Geth....how would that have affected ME1?

Yeah...think about that

[Schneidend]

Novacain999 wrote...

I'm not a big fan of the argument myself, but hey, anything to pass the time till I'm playing ME2

The problem with your argument is that you said "Most of the Geth had not become sentient" as long as this statement isnt' "All of the Geth", it's still genocide.

Omelettes. Eggs. Breaking. Etc.

Sentient geth would have quickly realized they are slaves, and would have rebelled eventually. Sometimes you have to cut off a limb to save the body. Unfortunately, the quarians lost the resulting battle. The death toll likely would have been far worse had they done nothing at all, however.

[SkywardDescent]

The only female squaddie I could stand talking to in ME1.

That, or it was back to Ash and her xenophonia, or Liara and her blandness...