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[Xilizhra]

In the same way the lore makes singlemindedness look stupid. It is hard to be sympathetic to terrorists who blow up a whole church and kill the one person seeking to improve things because you think it is too slow.

One person preventing anything from being improved. Nothing peaceful would ever be accomplished at that stage anyway.

Gwydden: Who gets blamed for Anders? The Templars.

They allowed him to escape - what was it, seven times? without Tranquilizing him. Since they're so notorious for their zero tolerance mage hating policies.

Had they been more like what people on the BSN painted them as - there would have been no Anders.

That Rivain incident would still have happened, and who knows what then? Perhaps Justice would have hooked up with Velanna instead. That would have been interesting.

[wcholcombe]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Gwydden: Who gets blamed for Anders? The Templars.

They allowed him to escape - what was it, seven times? without Tranquilizing him. Since they're so notorious for their zero tolerance mage hating policies.

Had they been more like what people on the BSN painted them as - there would have been no Anders.

Actually I was gonna blame the wardens for not keeping him in line.

[Gwydden]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Gwydden: Who gets blamed for Anders? The Templars.

They allowed him to escape - what was it, seven times? without Tranquilizing him. Since they're so notorious for their zero tolerance mage hating policies.

Had they been more like what people on the BSN painted them as - there would have been no Anders.

You're right. But the war would have erupted nonetheless. Though I guess some who are dead might still live. A full chantry full of people, at least.

[Xilizhra]

Gwydden wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Gwydden: Who gets blamed for Anders? The Templars.

They allowed him to escape - what was it, seven times? without Tranquilizing him. Since they're so notorious for their zero tolerance mage hating policies.

Had they been more like what people on the BSN painted them as - there would have been no Anders.

You're right. But the war would have erupted nonetheless. Though I guess some who are dead might still live. A full chantry full of people, at least.

Templars and their criminally negligent at best, actively collaborationist at worst leader. I weep, truly.

[Heimdall]

Gwydden wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

It might be that the veil tears are purely accidental, brought about by the clash of powerful magic, Templar powers, and weaponized Red Lyrium over a protracted period... Okay, the last one has to be a deliberate machination, because I like to think nobody was stupid enough to think using that was a good idea on a grand scale.

Perhaps they thought discipline and stalwart determination alone would be enough to keep them relatively sane, for a few years at least? It did work for Meredith.

While Varric and Bartrand began to succumb almost immediately?  I'm doubtful.  More to tha point, they had to have some help getting the sheer quantity anyway.

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...
Templars and their criminally negligent at best, actively collaborationist at worst leader. I weep, truly.

Not every templar or andrastian is evil. Not every mage is as innocent as a baby.

[Xilizhra]

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Templars and their criminally negligent at best, actively collaborationist at worst leader. I weep, truly.

Not every templar or andrastian is evil. Not every mage is as innocent as a baby.

I would say that every templar who doesn't leave is at least serving evil, and qualifies as at least somewhat evil themselves. Andrastians vary more widely, but Elthina was by no means a good person.

[Medhia Nox]

@wcholcombe: The Wardens are imbeciles to allow such policies as "whatever it takes to win" into their faction. It breeds dissidents - and a group so important as the Wardens should brook no such thing.

They're second most to blame for the idiocy that is Anders. They should have hunted him down (and any Warden defector) and reintegrated him or put him down.

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

Templars and their criminally negligent at best, actively collaborationist at worst leader. I weep, truly.

Or perhaps a single mother come to pray after second job for the fortune of her infant sons?  The Chantry wasn't a military base, it was a place of worship.  Anyone could have been in there.

[Gwydden]

Lord Aesir wrote...
While Varric and Bartrand began to succumb almost immediately?  I'm doubtful.  More to tha point, they had to have some help getting the sheer quantity anyway.

I also suspect someone is suplying those templars in full knowledge of what using his merchandise entails, but it could be that the red lyrium is more effective on dwarves, or less on templars.

[Xilizhra]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Templars and their criminally negligent at best, actively collaborationist at worst leader. I weep, truly.

Or perhaps a single mother come to pray after second job for the fortune of her infant sons?  The Chantry wasn't a military base, it was a place of worship.  Anyone could have been in there.

Maybe. One thing is for sure: we don't see anyone else.

[Gwydden]

Xilizhra wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Templars and their criminally negligent at best, actively collaborationist at worst leader. I weep, truly.

Not every templar or andrastian is evil. Not every mage is as innocent as a baby.

I would say that every templar who doesn't leave is at least serving evil, and qualifies as at least somewhat evil themselves. Andrastians vary more widely, but Elthina was by no means a good person.

You can't condemn people to death for inactivity alone. And someone needs to police mages. All templars dont need to suffer because some of them are crazy extremists.

[Xilizhra]

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Templars and their criminally negligent at best, actively collaborationist at worst leader. I weep, truly.

Not every templar or andrastian is evil. Not every mage is as innocent as a baby.

I would say that every templar who doesn't leave is at least serving evil, and qualifies as at least somewhat evil themselves. Andrastians vary more widely, but Elthina was by no means a good person.

You can't condemn people to death for inactivity alone. And someone needs to police mages. All templars dont need to suffer because some of them are crazy extremists.

I didn't condemn anyone to death (though I will say that the Chantry explosion was the most beautiful and arguably powerful scene in the series), that was on a sidekick of mine. As for templars... well, for my opinion on the ones fighting the mages in this war, I refer to the quote thread: they will be impaled, either on the spires of the Circles or of my own fortress. The ones still hanging around the Chantry, I'll assess closely.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: You're so level headed and reasonable.

Well, the mages and templars are at war. Defeating the templars is the goal of anyone who wants to maintain mage autonomy from the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order.

As someone interested in a Dalish mage Inquisitor, I certainly don't envision my character bending knee to the templars or the Chantry. Capitulation isn't an option. Fighting and killing Lambert's faction of templars may end up being a necessity since the Dalish refuse to surrender to Andrastian forces for centuries, and playing as a heathen maleficar may demand their deaths if they think they have dominion over my character by divine right.

[Laughing_Man]

wcholcombe wrote...

 In the same way the lore makes singlemindedness look stupid.  It is hard to be sympathetic to terrorists who blow up a whole church and kill the one person seeking to improve things because you think it is too slow.

Indeed. I never claimed that Anders was right.
That's why in my game Anders died from a knife in his back, despite the fact that Hawke was a mage who supported mages.

That said, it didn't happend in a vaccum.
The things that led to it were *almost* enough to justify it to me.
The thing I didn't stand was that this was an attack against innocents too, and he could have made a point without spilling their blood.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: Since you enjoy it so much - you know the explosion throws massive boulders and fire across all of Kirkwall. A city not entirely made of stone. The streets are burning FAR away from the explosion in that video you find so powerful.

[Cainhurst Crow]

MisterJB wrote...

If I get to choose, I wish it to be Evangeline.

It makes 0 sense for evangeline to be a villain. Like, less than zero in fact. Negative 10 logic of her being a villain.

Sandals being a villain makes more logically sound sense.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Since you enjoy it so much - you know the explosion throws massive boulders and fire across all of Kirkwall. A city not entirely made of stone. The streets are burning FAR away from the explosion in that video you find so powerful.

And I'll be sure to judge Anders on how many people he killed by that once we get an actual counter instead of just speculation. All we can nail him on right now is property damage and reckless endangerment.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: Your sophistry certainly is endless.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Your sophistry certainly is endless.

If you want to condemn him, you really need to get your evidence in order. "He definitely killed an unspecified but hopefully large number of innocent civilians!" doesn't quite cut it.

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Your sophistry certainly is endless.

If you want to condemn him, you really need to get your evidence in order. "He definitely killed an unspecified but hopefully large number of innocent civilians!" doesn't quite cut it.

I condemn Anders for an Act of Terrorism and murder

[Xilizhra]

AresKeith wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Your sophistry certainly is endless.

If you want to condemn him, you really need to get your evidence in order. "He definitely killed an unspecified but hopefully large number of innocent civilians!" doesn't quite cut it.

I condemn Anders for an Act of Terrorism and murder

'Kay.

[Cainhurst Crow]

The agents of chaos should be a negative heroic band type group. So like how the hero usually has a band of multi-perspective comrades from all walks of life working together against evil? Reverse it.

You have a multi-cultural/racial group who are all working towards the destabalization of thedas. Men and woman from all walks of life, recruited and trained elite spec ops style, in order to make them the best of the best.

Mages, templars, elves, dwarves, imperials, orlisians, fereldians, tal-vashoth, mercenaries, nobles, and everything in between working behind the scenes.

And you're job is to route the bastards out and stop them, one by one in boss fight after boss fight.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
And I'll be sure to judge Anders on how many people he killed by that once we get an actual counter instead of just speculation. All we can nail him on right now is property damage and reckless endangerment.

Well, no. We'd get him on attempted murder (for any survivors and any who we might infer could typically be in the Chantry), murder (for Elthina and the templars) and terrorrism (the name varies by jurisdiction). 

If you're talking about what he's technically guilty of as a freedom fighter, then the answer is obviously nothing since he's a hero of the Revolucion in this narrative. 

Modifié par In Exile, 23 septembre 2013 - 03:26 .

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
And I'll be sure to judge Anders on how many people he killed by that once we get an actual counter instead of just speculation. All we can nail him on right now is property damage and reckless endangerment.

Well, no. We'd get him on attempted murder (for any survivors and any who we might infer could typically be in the Chantry), murder (for Elthina and the templars) and terrorrism (the name varies by jurisdiction). 

If you're talking about what he's technically guilty of as a freedom fighter, then the answer is obviously nothing since he's a hero of the Revolucion in this narrative. 

I meant in context of the debris field.