626 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
The mages who were made Tranquil would disagree. As well as the circle of Dairsmuid who were annuled.

They can disagree all they want, mages who are made Tranquil were either blood mages, too weak to control their powers or chose to become one. Either way, it was justified.

And the Rivaini mages were willingly becoming hosts for spirits; which means they were terribly endagering their fellows; as well as ruling over man. They were no saints. 

I am pretty sure that the "spirit hosts" that were in Rivain are different than the Circle of Magi. They may coexist, but they are not the same...faction.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
The mages who were made Tranquil would disagree. As well as the circle of Dairsmuid who were annuled.

They can disagree all they want, mages who are made Tranquil were either blood mages, too weak to control their powers or chose to become one. Either way, it was justified.

And the Rivaini mages were willingly becoming hosts for spirits; which means they were terribly endagering their fellows; as well as ruling over man. They were no saints. 

It's amusing how you think that the Rivain example was inherently evil.

The Annulment at Dairsmuid was a preemptive strike by the Templars of that Circleafter Wynne's info about Tranquility became known, right? Or am I misremembering that?

[Medhia Nox]

I'd love to see Tevinter support Tranquility as a punishment for mage who overreach.

Do we have any non-headcanon information about how Tevinter sees Tranquility?

I know they have Templars - and those templars have practiced the Rite of Annulment before (though it is stated for different reasons). 

And I'm fairly certain the most pro-mage/advanced mage society also practices the Harrowing (I'd have to reconfirm that though - might be head canon).

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 01 octobre 2013 - 06:05 .

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'd love to see Tevinter support Tranquility as a punishment for mage who overreach.

Do we have any non-headcanon information about how Tevinter sees Tranquility?

Why would that be surprising? We already know that they're happy to enslave other mages.

[draken-heart]

dragonflight288 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

except that magic itself is aslippery slope, as you say blood magic is. if you are going to kill someone in a fight, it will not take long for a mage to wan tto use their magic to cause havoc for laughs, and that is evil.

That is just as logical as saying "using a sword or a bow is a slippery slope, because the archer/guard who kills the bandit may not take long for them to decide to kill others."

If a mage uses magic against a civilian population, they are a raider and a badit, no more so than the swordsman or the archer, and all ought to be punished accordingly.

I was using your own logic. A mage will always be tempted, like a swordsman or archer, but a mage is tempted 24/7 unlike a guard, who might not go to bed thinking those thoughts.

People are afraid/hate what something CAN do, but that is false. Blood magic has no more power than a mage allows it to have. Blood magic does not control minds, the mage using it does. 

Tempted by who? Mages aren't tempted during their waking hours except by everyday things, same as any other man. Most mages, as far as I can tell from the lore, aren't tempted in their sleep save for exceptions like Feynriel and other dreamers.

As for the blood magic, I agree to a point, but the mage in question gains that power from blood magic itself. If they show a willingness to use it, and take away another person's free will, such an act is something I truly believe is punishable with Tranquility. In nearly every other case, I will oppose tranquility being forced upon a mage.

Demons? Freedom? Survival? The Circle is a problem that caused more problemd than it solved. Mages are beacons for demons, and they usually end up being weak-willed enough to fall for what a demon is saying. as Fenris says, "A mage will always justify his/her need for power." Power is the temptation.

and again, if you only know enough to be able to use your own blood to power, say, a fireball, and refuse to use it unless necessary, there is no power of mind control. Blood magic has no power unless the mage uses it for a specific "spell". *Shakes head then facepalms*

Modifié par draken-heart, 01 octobre 2013 - 06:09 .

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'd love to see Tevinter support Tranquility as a punishment for mage who overreach.

Do we have any non-headcanon information about how Tevinter sees Tranquility?

I know they have Templars - and those templars have practiced the Rite of Annulment before (though it is stated for different reasons). 

And I'm fairly certain the most pro-mage/advanced mage society also practices the Harrowing (I'd have to reconfirm that though - might be head canon).

I feel like Tevinter is much more lenient in regards towards Harrowings and Tranquility.

[Hellion Rex]

draken-heart wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

except that magic itself is aslippery slope, as you say blood magic is. if you are going to kill someone in a fight, it will not take long for a mage to wan tto use their magic to cause havoc for laughs, and that is evil.

That is just as logical as saying "using a sword or a bow is a slippery slope, because the archer/guard who kills the bandit may not take long for them to decide to kill others."

If a mage uses magic against a civilian population, they are a raider and a badit, no more so than the swordsman or the archer, and all ought to be punished accordingly.

I was using your own logic. A mage will always be tempted, like a swordsman or archer, but a mage is tempted 24/7 unlike a guard, who might not go to bed thinking those thoughts.

People are afraid/hate what something CAN do, but that is false. Blood magic has no more power than a mage allows it to have. Blood magic does not control minds, the mage using it does. 

Tempted by who? Mages aren't tempted during their waking hours except by everyday things, same as any other man. Most mages, as far as I can tell from the lore, aren't tempted in their sleep save for exceptions like Feynriel and other dreamers.

As for the blood magic, I agree to a point, but the mage in question gains that power from blood magic itself. If they show a willingness to use it, and take away another person's free will, such an act is something I truly believe is punishable with Tranquility. In nearly every other case, I will oppose tranquility being forced upon a mage.

Demons? Freedom? Survival? The Circle is a problem that caused more problemd than it solved. Mages are beacons for demons, and they usually end up being weak-willed enough to fall for what a demon is saying.

and again, if you only know enough to be able to use your own blood to power, say, a fireball, and refuse to use it unless necessary, there is no power of mind control. Blood magic has no power unless the mage uses it for a specific "spell". *Shakes head then facepalms*

Irving, Rhys, Wynne, and many more mages say hello. Not all mages are "weak willed".

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: Wouldn't be surprising as much as it would be another example of the pro-magic Tevinter supporting things it sees pragmatic.

I think the Tevinter we've been shown is largely degenerate - but I think it is the natural state power mongering mages (and I haven't seen any non-power mongering mages speaking for Pro-Mage interests on the BSN) and a good insight of the pragmatic conclusions all magocracies would come to.

As I've said in the past - I think the dream of Magetopia is a bit silly.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
I am pretty sure that the "spirit hosts" that were in Rivain are different than the Circle of Magi. They may coexist, but they are not the same...faction.

The First-Enchanter herself claims they were training female mages in the ways of the Seers which means the practice was widespread in the Circle itself. And given that Seers are leaders of Rivaini communities, it also means that the Circle was using magic to rule over man.

eluvianix wrote...
The Annulment at Dairsmuid was a preemptive strike by the Templars of that Circleafter Wynne's info about Tranquility became known, right? Or am I misremembering that?

Second option. The entry says the Circle at Dairsmuid had heard of what happened in the White Spire which places that Annulment after Lambert imprisions the First Enchanters but before the mages rebelled because Fionna mentions it.
Plus, the entry also makes it clear Templars were sent from the mainland to investigate and that they were shocked upon seeing the conditions of the Circle and gave the mages one chance to follow the rules of the Chantry.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 octobre 2013 - 06:11 .

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
I am pretty sure that the "spirit hosts" that were in Rivain are different than the Circle of Magi. They may coexist, but they are not the same...faction.

The First-Enchanter herself claims they were training female mages in the ways of the Seers which means the practice was widespread in the Circle itself. And given that Seers are leaders of Rivaini communities, it also means that the Circle was using magic to rule over man.

eluvianix wrote...
The Annulment at Dairsmuid was a preemptive strike by the Templars of that Circleafter Wynne's info about Tranquility became known, right? Or am I misremembering that?

Second option. The entry says the Circle at Dairsmuid had heard of what happened in the White Spire which places that Annulment after Lambert imprisions the First Enchanters but before the mages rebelled because Fionna mentions it.
Plus, the entry also makes it clear Templars were sent from the mainland to investigate and that they were shocked upon seeing the conditions of the Circle and gave the mages one chance to follow the rules of the Chantry.

I concede the first point to you about the Seers. I had just glanced over the codex entry. But where in the world does it say that the Seekers and templars gave the mages "one chance"? It says that the mages were simply denounced as apostates and the killing began.

Modifié par eluvianix, 01 octobre 2013 - 06:13 .

[draken-heart]

eluvianix wrote...

Irving, Rhys, Wynne, and many more mages say hello. Not all mages are "weak willed".

I never said ALL mages are weak-willed, just that weak-willed mages will always justify turning to blood magic. Learn to read context my friend. I know not all mages are weak-willed. I was speaking in terms of blood magic and the fact that it is often those that fall prey to demon lies that use it.

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra: Wouldn't be surprising as much as it would be another example of the pro-magic Tevinter supporting things it sees pragmatic.

Tevinter isn't pro-mage, it's pro-magister. The system is dedicated to ensuring that those who are currently in power stay there permanently.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
I concede the first point to you about the Seers. I had just glanced over the codex entry. But where in the world does it say that the Seekers and templars gave the mages "one chance"? It says that the mages were simply denounced as apostates and the killing began.

You're right, it doesn't say that. My mistake.
But, on the other hand, the FE says that "Perhaps they thought we were spineless robes who could be intimidated with a little bloodshed.". Plus, she also says the Templars only called for the Right of Annulment after the mages resisted which I interpretated as meaning that the Templars intended to kill a few mages and scare the rest into followying the rules. However, I acknowledge that is shaky, at best.

And, again, the entire female population of the Circle was possessed and they were ruling over man. It was, by no means, an harmless Circle

[Hellion Rex]

draken-heart wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Irving, Rhys, Wynne, and many more mages say hello. Not all mages are "weak willed".

I never said ALL mages are weak-willed, just that weak-willed mages will always justify turning to blood magic. Learn to read context my friend. I know not all mages are weak-willed. I was speaking in terms of blood magic and the fact that it is often those that fall prey to demon lies that use it.

What would you classify Avernus as? I'm just curious. I would say he isn't weak-willed. Not by a longshot.

[Xilizhra]

And, again, the entire female population of the Circle was possessed and they were ruling over man. It was, by no means, an harmless Circle

Well, if you assume that the Chant of Light has 100% correspondence to reality, perhaps.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: Right, and you perceive a world of power and academia that DOESN'T become a violent meritocracy not only possible... but probable.

I do not.

Hence, my interests.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 01 octobre 2013 - 06:21 .

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
I concede the first point to you about the Seers. I had just glanced over the codex entry. But where in the world does it say that the Seekers and templars gave the mages "one chance"? It says that the mages were simply denounced as apostates and the killing began.

You're right, it doesn't say that. My mistake.
But, on the other hand, the FE says that "Perhaps they thought we were spineless robes who could be intimidated with a little bloodshed.". Plus, she also says the Templars only called for the Right of Annulment after the mages resisted which I interpretated as meaning that the Templars intended to kill a few mages and scare the rest into followying the rules. However, I acknowledge that is shaky, at best.

And, again, the entire female population of the Circle was possessed and they were ruling over man. It was, by no means, an harmless Circle

Well, if this Circle's Annulment happened after White Spire, it makes sense that both sides would be itching for a fight. The fighting was inevitable.

[Heimdall]

eluvianix wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Irving, Rhys, Wynne, and many more mages say hello. Not all mages are "weak willed".

I never said ALL mages are weak-willed, just that weak-willed mages will always justify turning to blood magic. Learn to read context my friend. I know not all mages are weak-willed. I was speaking in terms of blood magic and the fact that it is often those that fall prey to demon lies that use it.

What would you classify Avernus as? I'm just curious. I would say he isn't weak-willed. Not by a longshot.

Immoral?

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
I concede the first point to you about the Seers. I had just glanced over the codex entry. But where in the world does it say that the Seekers and templars gave the mages "one chance"? It says that the mages were simply denounced as apostates and the killing began.

You're right, it doesn't say that. My mistake.
But, on the other hand, the FE says that "Perhaps they thought we were spineless robes who could be intimidated with a little bloodshed.". Plus, she also says the Templars only called for the Right of Annulment after the mages resisted which I interpretated as meaning that the Templars intended to kill a few mages and scare the rest into followying the rules. However, I acknowledge that is shaky, at best.

And, again, the entire female population of the Circle was possessed and they were ruling over man. It was, by no means, an harmless Circle

No Circle is harmless, but the Rivaini spirit mediums seemed to be communing with their country pretty peacefully.

[Plaintiff]

L-O-L

"You have one chance to cease your ancient traditions that aren't harming anyone, and that nobody has complained about. If you don't comply, we'll slaughter you all."

Truly, the Templar Order is generosity itself.

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Aesir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Irving, Rhys, Wynne, and many more mages say hello. Not all mages are "weak willed".

I never said ALL mages are weak-willed, just that weak-willed mages will always justify turning to blood magic. Learn to read context my friend. I know not all mages are weak-willed. I was speaking in terms of blood magic and the fact that it is often those that fall prey to demon lies that use it.

What would you classify Avernus as? I'm just curious. I would say he isn't weak-willed. Not by a longshot.

Immoral?

Morality is a matter or personal perspective. Maybe very pragmatic? Utilising blood magic to explore the depths of the Taint.

[draken-heart]

eluvianix wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Irving, Rhys, Wynne, and many more mages say hello. Not all mages are "weak willed".

I never said ALL mages are weak-willed, just that weak-willed mages will always justify turning to blood magic. Learn to read context my friend. I know not all mages are weak-willed. I was speaking in terms of blood magic and the fact that it is often those that fall prey to demon lies that use it.

What would you classify Avernus as? I'm just curious. I would say he isn't weak-willed. Not by a longshot.

Selfish? Immoral? Total Warden in life and death? take your pick. Even Avernus justifies his blood magic/demon summoning.

[Hellion Rex]

Plaintiff wrote...

L-O-L

"You have one chance to cease your ancient traditions that aren't harming anyone, and that nobody has complained about. If you don't comply, we'll slaughter you all."

Truly, the Templar Order is generosity itself.

Funny thing is, there was no "one chance". It was a massacre waiting to happen.

[Plaintiff]

eluvianix wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

L-O-L

"You have one chance to cease your ancient traditions that aren't harming anyone, and that nobody has complained about. If you don't comply, we'll slaughter you all."

Truly, the Templar Order is generosity itself.

Funny thing is, there was no "one chance". It was a massacre waiting to happen.

Well the specifics of how it happened are irrelevent. The Chantry and the Templars have no business playing Team Orlais: World Police in the first place.

[Heimdall]

eluvianix wrote...

Morality is a matter or personal perspective. Maybe very pragmatic? Utilising blood magic to explore the depths of the Taint.

...And torturing fellow Warden's to death in the process?  It wasn't pragmatic for him to spend all his time like that, his creation didn't remotely help resolve the situation even after he finished.  He was still stuck.