626 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Plaintiff wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

L-O-L

"You have one chance to cease your ancient traditions that aren't harming anyone, and that nobody has complained about. If you don't comply, we'll slaughter you all."

Truly, the Templar Order is generosity itself.

Funny thing is, there was no "one chance". It was a massacre waiting to happen.

Well the specifics of how it happened are irrelevent. The Chantry and the Templars have no business playing Team Orlais: World Police in the first place.

I was agreeing with you dude. Relax.

[Plaintiff]

eluvianix wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

L-O-L

"You have one chance to cease your ancient traditions that aren't harming anyone, and that nobody has complained about. If you don't comply, we'll slaughter you all."

Truly, the Templar Order is generosity itself.

Funny thing is, there was no "one chance". It was a massacre waiting to happen.

Well the specifics of how it happened are irrelevent. The Chantry and the Templars have no business playing Team Orlais: World Police in the first place.

I was agreeing with you dude. Relax.

I... never said you were disagreeing.

[draken-heart]

Lord Aesir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Morality is a matter or personal perspective. Maybe very pragmatic? Utilising blood magic to explore the depths of the Taint.

...And torturing fellow Warden's to death in the process?  It wasn't pragmatic for him to spend all his time like that, his creation didn't remotely help resolve the situation even after he finished.  He was still stuck.

Alistair (the templar/prince) has a point. Relieving yourself after an eight hour ride is necessary, not summoning demons, like Avernus did.

Blood mage justifying his need for power with "There was a revolution, kid."

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Right, and you perceive a world of power and academia that DOESN'T become a violent meritocracy not only possible... but probable.

I do not.

Hence, my interests.

So we're also killing the educated now?

[Hellion Rex]

draken-heart wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Morality is a matter or personal perspective. Maybe very pragmatic? Utilising blood magic to explore the depths of the Taint.

...And torturing fellow Warden's to death in the process?  It wasn't pragmatic for him to spend all his time like that, his creation didn't remotely help resolve the situation even after he finished.  He was still stuck.

Alistair (the templar/prince) has a point. Relieving yourself after an eight hour ride is necessary, not summoning demons, like Avernus did.

Blood mage justifying his need for power with "There was a revolution, kid."

Well, I think his justification at the time was: blood magic or we all die. IIRC, Soldier's Keep was being overrun. Even if it did end up killing everyone else, Avernus did in the interests of surviving, regardless if you think it was justified or not.

[draken-heart]

eluvianix wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Morality is a matter or personal perspective. Maybe very pragmatic? Utilising blood magic to explore the depths of the Taint.

...And torturing fellow Warden's to death in the process?  It wasn't pragmatic for him to spend all his time like that, his creation didn't remotely help resolve the situation even after he finished.  He was still stuck.

Alistair (the templar/prince) has a point. Relieving yourself after an eight hour ride is necessary, not summoning demons, like Avernus did.

Blood mage justifying his need for power with "There was a revolution, kid."

Well, I think his justification at the time was: blood magic or we all die. IIRC, Soldier's Keep was being overrun. Even if it did end up killing everyone else, Avernus did in the interests of surviving, regardless if you think it was justified or not.

Blood magic is a tool of the weak and corrupt, but a good magic using it for their regular spells is not an evil or corrupt or weak-willed mage.

Modifié par draken-heart, 01 octobre 2013 - 06:41 .

[Hellion Rex]

draken-heart wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Morality is a matter or personal perspective. Maybe very pragmatic? Utilising blood magic to explore the depths of the Taint.

...And torturing fellow Warden's to death in the process?  It wasn't pragmatic for him to spend all his time like that, his creation didn't remotely help resolve the situation even after he finished.  He was still stuck.

Alistair (the templar/prince) has a point. Relieving yourself after an eight hour ride is necessary, not summoning demons, like Avernus did.

Blood mage justifying his need for power with "There was a revolution, kid."

Well, I think his justification at the time was: blood magic or we all die. IIRC, Soldier's Keep was being overrun. Even if it did end up killing everyone else, Avernus did in the interests of surviving, regardless if you think it was justified or not.

Blood magic is a tool of the weak and corrupt, but a good magic using it for their regular spells is not an evil or corrupt or weak-willed mage.

While I disagree with the first point, I do agree with your second one, the part about using blood magic to empower their regular spells.

[draken-heart]

eluvianix wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Morality is a matter or personal perspective. Maybe very pragmatic? Utilising blood magic to explore the depths of the Taint.

...And torturing fellow Warden's to death in the process?  It wasn't pragmatic for him to spend all his time like that, his creation didn't remotely help resolve the situation even after he finished.  He was still stuck.

Alistair (the templar/prince) has a point. Relieving yourself after an eight hour ride is necessary, not summoning demons, like Avernus did.

Blood mage justifying his need for power with "There was a revolution, kid."

Well, I think his justification at the time was: blood magic or we all die. IIRC, Soldier's Keep was being overrun. Even if it did end up killing everyone else, Avernus did in the interests of surviving, regardless if you think it was justified or not.

Blood magic is a tool of the weak and corrupt, but a good magic using it for their regular spells is not an evil or corrupt or weak-willed mage.

While I disagree with the first point, I do agree with your second one, the part about using blood magic to empower their regular spells.

Have you seen the Blood magic spells? If those are not spells of weak-willed, or corrupt/evil mages, I have no clue what is.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
No Circle is harmless, but the Rivaini spirit mediums seemed to be communing with their country pretty peacefully.

Maybe, maybe not. I remember it being mentioned that whenever a Seer becomes dangerous, rivainis just look at it as a "natural disaster". If that is the case, I'd say that their culture have warped their view of the world into one that could use some work. If one Seer allows a spirit into her body and one corrupts the other, then the destruction she will cause can and should be blamed on her choices, not nature.

Regardless, that wasn't my point. Only that that particular Circle was acting in ways contrary to the rules of the Chantry despite being, supposedly, part of it. And rather than simply allow some more freedom for their mages such as seeing their families,we're talking about Abominations ruling over people.
Clearly, this would have helped to flare tempers.

[BraveVesperia]

Using your own blood to fuel a spell doesn't strike me as a bad thing.
Using blood someone else has volunteered (especially to the point of death, like with Isolde) is questionable, but I think if it's for something selfless then it's not so bad.
Using someone else's blood without their consent is morally reprehensible to me. So basically, the Magister-slave relationship of the Tevinter Imperium as we know it.

As for the rest... mind control is a no... boiling people's blood in their veins is quite nasty but I suppose it depends on the person... and working with demons is also a no from me.

[The Hierophant]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
No Circle is harmless, but the Rivaini spirit mediums seemed to be communing with their country pretty peacefully.

Maybe, maybe not. I remember it being mentioned that whenever a Seer becomes dangerous, rivainis just look at it as a "natural disaster". If that is the case, I'd say that their culture have warped their view of the world into one that could use some work. If one Seer allows a spirit into her body and one corrupts the other, then the destruction she will cause can and should be blamed on her choices, not nature.

Regardless, that wasn't my point. Only that that particular Circle was acting in ways contrary to the rules of the Chantry despite being, supposedly, part of it. And rather than simply allow some more freedom for their mages such as seeing their families,we're talking about Abominations ruling over people.
Clearly, this would have helped to flare tempers.

OT, but I wonder if the Rivaini who were massacred by the nationalists and Chantry for refusing to denounce the Qun did so because their society, and culture were so crappy?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 01 octobre 2013 - 07:32 .

[Silfren]

draken-heart wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Morality is a matter or personal perspective. Maybe very pragmatic? Utilising blood magic to explore the depths of the Taint.

...And torturing fellow Warden's to death in the process?  It wasn't pragmatic for him to spend all his time like that, his creation didn't remotely help resolve the situation even after he finished.  He was still stuck.

Alistair (the templar/prince) has a point. Relieving yourself after an eight hour ride is necessary, not summoning demons, like Avernus did.

Blood mage justifying his need for power with "There was a revolution, kid."

Well, I think his justification at the time was: blood magic or we all die. IIRC, Soldier's Keep was being overrun. Even if it did end up killing everyone else, Avernus did in the interests of surviving, regardless if you think it was justified or not.

Blood magic is a tool of the weak and corrupt, but a good magic using it for their regular spells is not an evil or corrupt or weak-willed mage.

If blood magic is a tool of the weak and corrupt, then how are mages who use it for regular spells NOT corrupt or weak willed? If it's possible to use blood magic without being corrupt or weak, then it is NOT a tool of the weak or corrupt, it is merely a tool.

[draken-heart]

Silfren wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Morality is a matter or personal perspective. Maybe very pragmatic? Utilising blood magic to explore the depths of the Taint.

...And torturing fellow Warden's to death in the process?  It wasn't pragmatic for him to spend all his time like that, his creation didn't remotely help resolve the situation even after he finished.  He was still stuck.

Alistair (the templar/prince) has a point. Relieving yourself after an eight hour ride is necessary, not summoning demons, like Avernus did.

Blood mage justifying his need for power with "There was a revolution, kid."

Well, I think his justification at the time was: blood magic or we all die. IIRC, Soldier's Keep was being overrun. Even if it did end up killing everyone else, Avernus did in the interests of surviving, regardless if you think it was justified or not.

Blood magic is a tool of the weak and corrupt, but a good magic using it for their regular spells is not an evil or corrupt or weak-willed mage.

If blood magic is a tool of the weak and corrupt, then how are mages who use it for regular spells NOT corrupt or weak willed? If it's possible to use blood magic without being corrupt or weak, then it is NOT a tool of the weak or corrupt, it is merely a tool.

It is a tool...more often then not used by mages or are too weak on their own or too corrupt to see the dangers in it. A "good" mage is one who uses none of the powers of blood magic and instead have mainly only knowledge of it for when they are about to die last resort.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
No Circle is harmless, but the Rivaini spirit mediums seemed to be communing with their country pretty peacefully.

Maybe, maybe not. I remember it being mentioned that whenever a Seer becomes dangerous, rivainis just look at it as a "natural disaster". If that is the case, I'd say that their culture have warped their view of the world into one that could use some work. If one Seer allows a spirit into her body and one corrupts the other, then the destruction she will cause can and should be blamed on her choices, not nature.

Regardless, that wasn't my point. Only that that particular Circle was acting in ways contrary to the rules of the Chantry despite being, supposedly, part of it. And rather than simply allow some more freedom for their mages such as seeing their families,we're talking about Abominations ruling over people.
Clearly, this would have helped to flare tempers.

Nevertheless, when the law is used as an excuse for bloodshed even though the community is not being harmed, then that law is corrupt and excessive. 

I see the Rivaini seers as acknowledging and accepting that possession is dangerous, always carrying with it a potential for destruction.  But since they do it anyway, and we do not hear of any reports of Rivaini imploding under the weight of demons and blood magic, it does rather stand to reason that the danger is not so overwhelmingly great.  Since the community was apparently intact, there was no call for the templars to come in, guns a'blazing.  

By the way, I love how you talk about the Templars giving the Rivaini one chance to cease and desist, as if that is so totally reasonable, when you then admit that you interpreted that "one chance" as killing a few mages in an attempt to terrorize the other mages into acquiescing.

[Silfren]

draken-heart wrote...

Silfren wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Morality is a matter or personal perspective. Maybe very pragmatic? Utilising blood magic to explore the depths of the Taint.

...And torturing fellow Warden's to death in the process?  It wasn't pragmatic for him to spend all his time like that, his creation didn't remotely help resolve the situation even after he finished.  He was still stuck.

Alistair (the templar/prince) has a point. Relieving yourself after an eight hour ride is necessary, not summoning demons, like Avernus did.

Blood mage justifying his need for power with "There was a revolution, kid."

Well, I think his justification at the time was: blood magic or we all die. IIRC, Soldier's Keep was being overrun. Even if it did end up killing everyone else, Avernus did in the interests of surviving, regardless if you think it was justified or not.

Blood magic is a tool of the weak and corrupt, but a good magic using it for their regular spells is not an evil or corrupt or weak-willed mage.

If blood magic is a tool of the weak and corrupt, then how are mages who use it for regular spells NOT corrupt or weak willed? If it's possible to use blood magic without being corrupt or weak, then it is NOT a tool of the weak or corrupt, it is merely a tool.

It is a tool...more often then not used by mages or are too weak on their own or too corrupt to see the dangers in it. A "good" mage is one who uses none of the powers of blood magic and instead have mainly only knowledge of it for when they are about to die last resort.

Do you even realize that you keep changing the goalposts?  First it was a tool only of the weak and corrupt, then it was okay for mages using it for their regular spells, now it's only okay for mages who use it as a last resort against dying.

Make up your mind.  Is it a tool ONLY of the weak and corrupt, or isn't it?

[draken-heart]

Silfren wrote...

Do you even realize that you keep changing the goalposts?  First it was a tool only of the weak and corrupt, then it was okay for mages using it for their regular spells, now it's only okay for mages who use it as a last resort against dying.

Make up your mind.  Is it a tool ONLY of the weak and corrupt, or isn't it?

For the most part it is only a tool of the weak-willed and corrupt, as only the weak-willed and corrupt actually use it for the most part. There may be exceptions but the rule is that blood magic=evil or cowardly mage.

[Lotion Soronarr]

eluvianix wrote...

No Circle is harmless, but the Rivaini spirit mediums seemed to be communing with their country pretty peacefully.

Key word.
Wasn't there one story where an abomiantion slowly corrupted a city over the course of years. Demons CAN be subtle and they can play the long game. And givne that a demon doens't have to show his true face, he can wear the person he possesed like a puppet for years, appearing compeltely normal and friendly.

People can talk all they want how there was no danger and the communtiy wasn't harmed....but where is the proof?
I'm sorry but "Rivain didn't implode" is not proof.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 01 octobre 2013 - 08:25 .

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Nevertheless, when the law is used as an excuse for bloodshed even though the community is not being harmed, then that law is corrupt and excessive. 

Even if you believe that, you have to admit that, by the standards of the rest of Thedas, that Circle was an abomination which would have prompted to violence even the most reasonable Templar in the world.
After what Anders pulled, I wouldn't blame anyone for not buying the "These spirits possessing are 100% harmless, honest." Never mind the whole going against the very words of Andraste "Magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him."  

I see the Rivaini seers as acknowledging and accepting that possession is dangerous, always carrying with it a potential for destruction.  But since they do it anyway, and we do not hear of any reports of Rivaini imploding under the weight of demons and blood magic, it does rather stand to reason that the danger is not so overwhelmingly great.  Since the community was apparently intact, there was no call for the templars to come in, guns a'blazing. 

A country doesn't need to be on the brink of collapse in order to justify some sort of security measures. News from Rivain are scarce and not only can't we really expect the First Enchanter to admit to wrongdoing in the very same letter she wishes to accuse the Templars of excesses; given the rivaini attitude to ignore Seer accidents as "natural disasters", she might not even be capable of recognizing a Seer going Abomination on the countryside as a failure caused by their traditions because "natures does what nature wills".  

Seers are not born possessed, they do need to be possessed in order to be alive or feels emotions. There's absolutely no reason Seers should be possessed at any point in time. If we can't even ask mages not to be possessed without them complaining because "cultural sensitives", what kind of measures can we put in place?

By the way, I love how you talk about the Templars giving the Rivaini one chance to cease and desist, as if that is so totally reasonable, when you then admit that you interpreted that "one chance" as killing a few mages in an attempt to terrorize the other mages into acquiescing.

I was actually using that as evidence that the Templars were not Annulling the Circle as a preemptive strike; I wasn't claiming that it was evidence they being reasonable.
Altough, given the fact the entire female population of the Circle was possessed, I do think offering to accept their surrender would be exceedingly merciful. Only a spirit of Mercy would even come close to exhibiting the same behavior.

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

No Circle is harmless, but the Rivaini spirit mediums seemed to be communing with their country pretty peacefully.

Key word.
Wasn't there one story where an abomiantion slowly corrupted a city over the course of years. Demons CAN be subtle and they can play the long game. And givne that a demon doens't have to show his true face, he can wear the person he possesed like a puppet for years, appearing compeltely normal and friendly.

People can talk all they want how there was no danger and the communtiy wasn't harmed....but where is the proof?
I'm sorry but "Rivain didn't implode" is not proof.

Isn't it though? Where  do we draw the line at what is viable proof? But I guess Rivain is a moot point, since Dairsmuid has been annuled.

[Hellion Rex]

greengoron89 wrote...

It's an abomination, and it should be stamped out along with all mages who practice it.

Using blood magic to empower normal spells isn't necessarily an abomination. But things like mind control and demon summoning are where it gets a little dicey.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Nevertheless, when the law is used as an excuse for bloodshed even though the community is not being harmed, then that law is corrupt and excessive. 

Even if you believe that, you have to admit that, by the standards of the rest of Thedas, that Circle was an abomination which would have prompted to violence even the most reasonable Templar in the world.
After what Anders pulled, I wouldn't blame anyone for not buying the "These spirits possessing are 100% harmless, honest." Never mind the whole going against the very words of Andraste "Magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him."

I don't have to admit any such thing.  Reasonable templars don't look at a situation that is generally peaceful and respond by killing people.

And you know what?  I don't appreciate you twisting my words.  At NO point did I argue that spirit possession was 100% harmless.  What I have said is that the evidence before us strongly implies that it is nos not inevitably, catastrophically dangerous.  The fact that the seers do this willingly and often suggests that the seers have no fear of losing control, or their sense of self, and the fact that we do not hear of Rivaini being a hellish place to live also strongly suggests that this routine practice does not cause considerable, lasting, irreparable harm.

MisterJB wrote...

I see the Rivaini seers as acknowledging and accepting that possession is dangerous, always carrying with it a potential for destruction.  But since they do it anyway, and we do not hear of any reports of Rivaini imploding under the weight of demons and blood magic, it does rather stand to reason that the danger is not so overwhelmingly great.  Since the community was apparently intact, there was no call for the templars to come in, guns a'blazing. 

A country doesn't need to be on the brink of collapse in order to justify some sort of security measures. News from Rivain are scarce and not only can't we really expect the First Enchanter to admit to wrongdoing in the very same letter she wishes to accuse the Templars of excesses; given the rivaini attitude to ignore Seer accidents as "natural disasters", she might not even be capable of recognizing a Seer going Abomination on the countryside as a failure caused by their traditions because "natures does what nature wills". 

What the hell?  When have I EVER claimed that there shouldn't be any security measures?

Modifié par Silfren, 01 octobre 2013 - 09:07 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

eluvianix wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'd love to see Tevinter support Tranquility as a punishment for mage who overreach.

Do we have any non-headcanon information about how Tevinter sees Tranquility?

I know they have Templars - and those templars have practiced the Rite of Annulment before (though it is stated for different reasons). 

And I'm fairly certain the most pro-mage/advanced mage society also practices the Harrowing (I'd have to reconfirm that though - might be head canon).

I feel like Tevinter is much more lenient in regards towards Harrowings and Tranquility.

Considering their society is baiscally the rule of the strong elite, I'd say they're probably a lot harsher when it comes to harrowings than the other circles. If you can't even conquer one demon, than you weren't worth the magic in your veins.

[Medhia Nox]

@Darth Brotarian: That's exactly the kind of Tevinter I imagine.

Basically a Tevinter that despises itself in a way. If you can't prove you're a worthy mage, you'll get ground in the dust with the other unworthy mages.

I think it would also be interesting if Tevinter magisters raided Circles during the rebellion to steal artifacts from them to bring back to Tevinter. All those Tevinter artifacts under Fereldens Circle Tower for example.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
I don't have to admit any such thing.  Reasonable templars don't look at a situation that is generally peaceful and respond by killing people.

Reasonable Templars are not going to allow spirits that all it will take will be a particularly strong emotion to be corrupted into demons to just do as they will.
Obviously, anyone would have been appaled by how much those mages were breaking every rule of the Chantry, not just Templars.

And you know what?  I don't appreciate you twisting my words.  At NO point did I argue that spirit possession was 100% harmless.  What I have said is that the evidence before us strongly implies that it is nos not inevitably, catastrophically dangerous.  The fact that the seers do this willingly and often suggests that the seers have no fear of losing control, or their sense of self, and the fact that we do not hear of Rivaini being a hellish place to live also strongly suggests that this routine practice does not cause considerable, lasting, irreparable harm.

I'm not twisting your words, you're misinterpreting mine. Obviously, the Seers would use the excuse they commune with "good" spirits but after Kirkwall, everyone will know every spirit is dangerous.
We do not hear of Rivain, period. But it's impossible no spirit was ever corrupted because of this practice or that no demon ever disguised itself as a spirit. If 73 people are killed by an Abomination, they can be replaced. But it's still harm that could have been prevented had these mages just stopped giving themselves to denizens of the Fade.
And, hey, for such a magic-loving society, lot of people sure do convert to the Qun. I wonder their reasons.

What the hell?  When have I EVER claimed that there shouldn't be any security measures?

You are defending the mages of Rivain who didn't even have the most basic set of security measures in place; who just allowed possessed mages to come and go as they pleased; and given the First Enchanter's words, it's obvious they were unwilling to extablish any.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 octobre 2013 - 09:48 .