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[The Hierophant]

cjones91 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

@Hierophant Rylock and Meredith were extremists who believed they were above any authority.Meredith even broke one of her vows as a Templar when she started killing anyone who opposed her and refused to give up power,

That's my point. Wilhelm (free mage with family) was lucky that the Ferelden Templar order of his time were majorly lenient in regards to their perceived Mker given authority over mages or else he would have been assassinated by the Temps instead of Shale.

Whose to say some did'nt try?I would think twice about attacking a mage who has a golem at his side,however some templars are deluded enough to do so.

Wouldn't Wilhelm have mentioned an attack or harrassment from the Templars in his journal or by Shale when recounting past experiences while working for him?

[dragonflight288]

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

@Hierophant Rylock and Meredith were extremists who believed they were above any authority.Meredith even broke one of her vows as a Templar when she started killing anyone who opposed her and refused to give up power,

That's my point. Wilhelm (free mage with family) was lucky that the Ferelden Templar order of his time were majorly lenient in regards to their perceived Mker given authority over mages or else he would have been assassinated by the Temps instead of Shale.

Ferelden is considered one of the most liberal Circle's. Most Circle's aren't like that.

Exactly. If the Circle of Dairsmund was protected by royal decree, the Seekers might have hesitated in Annuling the Circle in an effort to prevent a three way battle with the Monarchy and the Qun. The Dairmund situation seemed out of whack as the Seers used the Circle as a front to placate the Chantry but were breaking the law the had accepted, while the Seekers overreacted as the children and men shouldn't have een killed as the abominations by seer tradition were only mature women.

The Circle there was pretty much just for show. Rivain never really converted totally to the Chantry's view, and their society revered mages, and the Seers were held in very high esteem by non-mages, whereas the Chantry's official view and stance says magic itself is bad.

What happened there was officialy Chantry law conflicting with the local culture and society. But even then, officially a Grand Cleric has to deem a Circle irredeemable and order a Right of Annulment. What happened there was a Seeker heard some mages were visiting families and went to complain about it the Chantry and ordered a Right of Annulment that way.

That seeker broke Chantry law just as much as the mages who weren't hurting anybody and were simply visiting their families were. Only the Chantry breaking its own law led to mass slaughter.

EDIT: Just out of curiousity, is your name based off of Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning? The Travelers (rogue's guild) follow a being called the Hierophant.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 02 octobre 2013 - 05:40 .

[Heimdall]

dragonflight288 wrote...

That seeker broke Chantry law just as much as the mages who weren't hurting anybody and were simply visiting their families were. Only the Chantry breaking its own law led to mass slaughter.

Well be fair.  The seeker was also reporting that female mages were being trained in the ways of the Seers.  Willing possession.  You can understand why that would elicit such a violent reaction from the rest of Andrastrian Thedas, though not condone.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

@Hierophant Rylock and Meredith were extremists who believed they were above any authority.Meredith even broke one of her vows as a Templar when she started killing anyone who opposed her and refused to give up power,

That's my point. Wilhelm (free mage with family) was lucky that the Ferelden Templar order of his time were majorly lenient in regards to their perceived Mker given authority over mages or else he would have been assassinated by the Temps instead of Shale.

Ferelden is considered one of the most liberal Circle's. Most Circle's aren't like that.

Exactly. If the Circle of Dairsmund was protected by royal decree, the Seekers might have hesitated in Annuling the Circle in an effort to prevent a three way battle with the Monarchy and the Qun. The Dairmund situation seemed out of whack as the Seers used the Circle as a front to placate the Chantry but were breaking the law the had accepted, while the Seekers overreacted as the children and men shouldn't have een killed as the abominations by seer tradition were only mature women.

The Circle there was pretty much just for show. Rivain never really converted totally to the Chantry's view, and their society revered mages, and the Seers were held in very high esteem by non-mages, whereas the Chantry's official view and stance says magic itself is bad.

What happened there was officialy Chantry law conflicting with the local culture and society. But even then, officially a Grand Cleric has to deem a Circle irredeemable and order a Right of Annulment. What happened there was a Seeker heard some mages were visiting families and went to complain about it the Chantry and ordered a Right of Annulment that way.

That seeker broke Chantry law just as much as the mages who weren't hurting anybody and were simply visiting their families were. Only the Chantry breaking its own law led to mass slaughter.

EDIT: Just out of curiousity, is your name based off of Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning? The Travelers (rogue's guild) follow a being called the Hierophant.

That is a gross misrepresentation of what happened... Of course the First Enchanter of the Circle would try and pass it off as that was the only reason they got annulled, but we both know that the Circle was far from operating ideally according to general Circle rules. They were intentionally creating Abominations, the mages were not contained, and the list goes on. The fact that the amges were allowed to visit family was not the only reason the Circle got annulled..

[dragonflight288]

Lord Aesir wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

That seeker broke Chantry law just as much as the mages who weren't hurting anybody and were simply visiting their families were. Only the Chantry breaking its own law led to mass slaughter.

Well be fair.  The seeker was also reporting that female mages were being trained in the ways of the Seers.  Willing possession.  You can understand why that would elicit such a violent reaction from the rest of Andrastrian Thedas, though not condone.

And......exactly where is the problem? The Chantry is staunchly opposed to it, but the Rivaini nationals, their whole culture, accepts the practice. The chantry was enforcing its own rules upon an entire country that opposed those rules as part of their very society. And they aren't tevinter, so the Chantry doesn't have that excuse.

[The Hierophant]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And that is exactly the wrong thing to do for the tempars. The templars duty is to protect the mages from the world as well as protect the world from mages. Politics is not part of that. The Chantry has a treaty, made after the third blight, that gives all Grey Wardens complete neutrality.

The Crown of various countries, allow the Chantry to be there at their own discretion. In Stolen Throne, Loghain and Maric were literally a hair away from kicking the Chantry out of Ferelden entirely because it was seen as more of an Orlesian organization rather than a religious one.

The templars couldn't touch Wilhelm because he had been given speical exemption by the crown, and they shouldn't have been able to go near Anders because he became a Grey Warden. And Meredith had absolutely no business whatsoever with interfering with Marlowe Dumar's role as Viscount, nor did she have any authority or right to act as defacto Viscount in the absence of a ruler. The templars didn't take that role when Dumar's predecessor tried kicking out the templars, and was tried by Elthina and deposed.

The Chantry and the Templars simply don't have the authority or the right.

just noticed - Your last paragraph highlights my point about the Crown's authority meaning zilch to overzealous Templars who believe that their authority over the mages is a Maker given right. If the Ferelden Templars of Wilhelm's time wanted it, they would have tried to kill or drag Wilhelm back to Circle with the excuse that he was an abomination.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 02 octobre 2013 - 05:53 .

[dragonflight288]

That is a gross misrepresentation of what happened... Of course the First Enchanter of the Circle would try and pass it off as that was the only reason they got annulled, but we both know that the Circle was far from operating ideally according to general Circle rules. They were intentionally creating Abominations, the mages were not contained, and the list goes on. The fact that the amges were allowed to visit family was not the only reason the Circle got annulled..

It was the official reason given.

[dragonflight288]

just noticed - Your last paragraph highlights my point about the Crown's authority meaning zilch to overzealous Templars who believe that their authority over the mages is a Maker given right. If the Ferelden Templars of Wilhelm's time wanted it, they would have tried to kill or drag Wilhelm back to Circle with the excuse that he was an abomination.

And thereby, would've been breaking the law. In Ferelden, that wouldn't have been tolerated. The chantry was already walking a line there because there had been a breath away from being kicked out in very recent history because of their support of Orlais during the war.

They likely had to make far more conessions there in order to even maintain a presence, compared to other places like Kirkwall.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

That is a gross misrepresentation of what happened... Of course the First Enchanter of the Circle would try and pass it off as that was the only reason they got annulled, but we both know that the Circle was far from operating ideally according to general Circle rules. They were intentionally creating Abominations, the mages were not contained, and the list goes on. The fact that the amges were allowed to visit family was not the only reason the Circle got annulled..

It was the official reason given.

To my knowledge, is was the reason given by the captured First Enchanter, writing a letter while in captivity..

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 02 octobre 2013 - 05:56 .

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: And yet, I wonder what allowed Finn from Witch Hunt to freely have a "very close relationship with his parents".

I'll also add that I'm not saying they DIDN'T attack because of their family relations.

IIIRC Wilhelm was allowed to start a family outside of the circle with no mention of harrassment from the Templars. It seems that each branch of Templar have varying degrees of tolerance or leniency in regards to the rules.

He was given that privelage because he fought against Orlais in the war, and was given special exemption.

Most mages won't get that chance. If you play the mage origin, Duncan says only seven mages were sent to Ostagar, and we hear Gregoire complaining that the Circle sent so many already, and didn't want to send more than that.

There are several examples of mages having special exemption status due to reasons not at all related to having proven their ability to fight demons.  Even if they had proven such, the fact remains that the templars and the Chantry swear six ways from Sunday that magic is so inherently dangerous that any and all mages could fall prey to tempation at any moment.  Yet these dangers are apparently not so great that they won't bow to politics and influence.  

Either magic really is that dangerous, or it...ain't, really.  If one mage really is supposed to be capbable of catastrophic devastation, then no mage should be permitted to skirt the laws.  But.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

That is a gross misrepresentation of what happened... Of course the First Enchanter of the Circle would try and pass it off as that was the only reason they got annulled, but we both know that the Circle was far from operating ideally according to general Circle rules. They were intentionally creating Abominations, the mages were not contained, and the list goes on. The fact that the amges were allowed to visit family was not the only reason the Circle got annulled..

It was the official reason given.

To my knowledge, is was the reason given by the captured First Enchanter, writing a letter while in captivity..

And about to be slaughtered for a crime most of them weren't involved with other than being in proximity....and a crime that didn't hurt anyone other than the Chantry's ego.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

That is a gross misrepresentation of what happened... Of course the First Enchanter of the Circle would try and pass it off as that was the only reason they got annulled, but we both know that the Circle was far from operating ideally according to general Circle rules. They were intentionally creating Abominations, the mages were not contained, and the list goes on. The fact that the amges were allowed to visit family was not the only reason the Circle got annulled..

It was the official reason given.

To my knowledge, is was the reason given by the captured First Enchanter, writing a letter while in captivity..

And about to be slaughtered for a crime most of them weren't involved with other than being in proximity....and a crime that didn't hurt anyone other than the Chantry's ego.

I don't care about how you try to package it in rethoric. The fact is, the Circle was not annulled just because the mages visted family.

[The Hierophant]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

@Hierophant Rylock and Meredith were extremists who believed they were above any authority.Meredith even broke one of her vows as a Templar when she started killing anyone who opposed her and refused to give up power,

That's my point. Wilhelm (free mage with family) was lucky that the Ferelden Templar order of his time were majorly lenient in regards to their perceived Mker given authority over mages or else he would have been assassinated by the Temps instead of Shale.

Ferelden is considered one of the most liberal Circle's. Most Circle's aren't like that.

Exactly. If the Circle of Dairsmund was protected by royal decree, the Seekers might have hesitated in Annuling the Circle in an effort to prevent a three way battle with the Monarchy and the Qun. The Dairmund situation seemed out of whack as the Seers used the Circle as a front to placate the Chantry but were breaking the law the had accepted, while the Seekers overreacted as the children and men shouldn't have een killed as the abominations by seer tradition were only mature women.

The Circle there was pretty much just for show. Rivain never really converted totally to the Chantry's view, and their society revered mages, and the Seers were held in very high esteem by non-mages, whereas the Chantry's official view and stance says magic itself is bad.

What happened there was officialy Chantry law conflicting with the local culture and society. But even then, officially a Grand Cleric has to deem a Circle irredeemable and order a Right of Annulment. What happened there was a Seeker heard some mages were visiting families and went to complain about it the Chantry and ordered a Right of Annulment that way.

That seeker broke Chantry law just as much as the mages who weren't hurting anybody and were simply visiting their families were. Only the Chantry breaking its own law led to mass slaughter.

EDIT: Just out of curiousity, is your name based off of Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning? The Travelers (rogue's guild) follow a being called the Hierophant.

Nah my name is an shout out to the designation of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure's Noriaki Kakyoin's stand power...

but the Seers broke the law they accepted by creating abominations on Chantry property, and hid that fact from the Chantry until the Seekers paid them a visit. Until the finale of Asunder all the Circles were under the the Chantry's jurisdiction.

It's daming too when it's stated that they knowingly hid the fact that they broke Chantry law.

The hypocrisy is that the nationalists and local Chantry slaughtered the Rivaini converts for breaking the Llomerryn accord but inturn broke the law of the organization they accepted and previously used as an excuse to genocide the converts who refused their culture.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 02 octobre 2013 - 06:09 .

[Silfren]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight288: Though we were "shown" Kirkwall's circle.. and have places like Rivain.

Where does it say that Ferelden's circle is not the norm and that the norm is psychotic Templars abusing their power?

Yes 2/1 is technically an overabundance of abuse.

BUT - I will say, look what happened at the liberal Ferelden circle. Uldred.

NOT a good case for temperance.

And now the idiot mages have declared a rebellion.

I don't expect my Mage Inquisitor will get much love from his rebel colleagues.

The Ferelden's Circle is slated as being the most liberal.  Too many people forget that the condition of being better than/not as bad as other places in no way equates to being good.  Another thing that gets overlooked is that Uldred might ultimately have been driven for power, but we see hints that a lot of his madness started from simply wanting to not be under constant lockdown and ever-present surveillance. 

Way too many people discount the importance of that detail.  The Chantry often creates the very demon it deigns to claim to defend against.  Mages within and without the Circles are in a cultural paradigm that swears it is and has to be an either/or scenario: either mundanes must be in absolute control of mages, or mages will be in absolute control of mundanes.  From birth on, mages are steeped in this line of thought....and all the while this is being drilled into their concept of the world, they are also treated with constant suspicion and fear and no small degree of hate, and kept prisoner to the extent that paranoia rules the day--the kind of atmosphere guaranteed to foment resentment. 

You can't treat people like this, teaching them that the world is a place of absolutes and extremes while simultaneously making them resent their station in life and hate their jailors for forcing them into it, and then be surprised when mages behave EXACTLY as you have taught them to.

[cjones91]

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

@Hierophant Rylock and Meredith were extremists who believed they were above any authority.Meredith even broke one of her vows as a Templar when she started killing anyone who opposed her and refused to give up power,

That's my point. Wilhelm (free mage with family) was lucky that the Ferelden Templar order of his time were majorly lenient in regards to their perceived Mker given authority over mages or else he would have been assassinated by the Temps instead of Shale.

Ferelden is considered one of the most liberal Circle's. Most Circle's aren't like that.

Exactly. If the Circle of Dairsmund was protected by royal decree, the Seekers might have hesitated in Annuling the Circle in an effort to prevent a three way battle with the Monarchy and the Qun. The Dairmund situation seemed out of whack as the Seers used the Circle as a front to placate the Chantry but were breaking the law the had accepted, while the Seekers overreacted as the children and men shouldn't have een killed as the abominations by seer tradition were only mature women.

The Circle there was pretty much just for show. Rivain never really converted totally to the Chantry's view, and their society revered mages, and the Seers were held in very high esteem by non-mages, whereas the Chantry's official view and stance says magic itself is bad.

What happened there was officialy Chantry law conflicting with the local culture and society. But even then, officially a Grand Cleric has to deem a Circle irredeemable and order a Right of Annulment. What happened there was a Seeker heard some mages were visiting families and went to complain about it the Chantry and ordered a Right of Annulment that way.

That seeker broke Chantry law just as much as the mages who weren't hurting anybody and were simply visiting their families were. Only the Chantry breaking its own law led to mass slaughter.

EDIT: Just out of curiousity, is your name based off of Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning? The Travelers (rogue's guild) follow a being called the Hierophant.

Nah my name is an shout out to the designation of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure's Noriaki Kakyoin's stand power...

but the Seers broke the law they accepted by creating abominations on Chantry property, and hid that fact from the Chantry until the Seekers paid them a visit. Until the finale of Asunder all the Circles were under the the Chantry's jurisdiction.

It's daming too when it's stated that they knowingly hid the fact that they broke Chantry law.

The hypocrisy is that the nationalists and local Chantry slaughtered the Rivaini converts for breaking the Llomerryn accord but inturn broke the law of the organization they accepted and previously used as an excuse to genocide the converts who refused their culture.

Was'nt it a common fact that the Chantry knew the Rivain Seers were possessed before the ROA?I don't see how the Seers would stop doing something they considered to be part of their culture just because the Chantry said so.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I believe the Chantry knew about Seers, they just didn't know the Rivaini Circle actively created them aswell.

[Silfren]

Lord Aesir wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

That seeker broke Chantry law just as much as the mages who weren't hurting anybody and were simply visiting their families were. Only the Chantry breaking its own law led to mass slaughter.

Well be fair.  The seeker was also reporting that female mages were being trained in the ways of the Seers.  Willing possession.  You can understand why that would elicit such a violent reaction from the rest of Andrastrian Thedas, though not condone.

The thing is, though, that this was already WELL known long before the Annulment happened.  We learn about it in Origins from the writings of a Chantry scholar.  Clearly the Chantry had been willing to tolerate the practice.  So you'll excuse me if I think the reasons for Annulling that Circle weren't quite so simple as "OMG  THEY'RE  VIOLATING  OUR LAWS AND ENDANGERING PEOPLE OH NOES!"  Had that been the case, and the Chantry been determine to stamp it out at all costs, it wouldn't have been allowed to go on as long as it had.

ETA: ^What cjones said.

Modifié par Silfren, 02 octobre 2013 - 06:25 .

[The Hierophant]

cjones91 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

@Hierophant Rylock and Meredith were extremists who believed they were above any authority.Meredith even broke one of her vows as a Templar when she started killing anyone who opposed her and refused to give up power,

That's my point. Wilhelm (free mage with family) was lucky that the Ferelden Templar order of his time were majorly lenient in regards to their perceived Mker given authority over mages or else he would have been assassinated by the Temps instead of Shale.

Ferelden is considered one of the most liberal Circle's. Most Circle's aren't like that.

Exactly. If the Circle of Dairsmund was protected by royal decree, the Seekers might have hesitated in Annuling the Circle in an effort to prevent a three way battle with the Monarchy and the Qun. The Dairmund situation seemed out of whack as the Seers used the Circle as a front to placate the Chantry but were breaking the law the had accepted, while the Seekers overreacted as the children and men shouldn't have een killed as the abominations by seer tradition were only mature women.

The Circle there was pretty much just for show. Rivain never really converted totally to the Chantry's view, and their society revered mages, and the Seers were held in very high esteem by non-mages, whereas the Chantry's official view and stance says magic itself is bad.

What happened there was officialy Chantry law conflicting with the local culture and society. But even then, officially a Grand Cleric has to deem a Circle irredeemable and order a Right of Annulment. What happened there was a Seeker heard some mages were visiting families and went to complain about it the Chantry and ordered a Right of Annulment that way.

That seeker broke Chantry law just as much as the mages who weren't hurting anybody and were simply visiting their families were. Only the Chantry breaking its own law led to mass slaughter.

EDIT: Just out of curiousity, is your name based off of Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning? The Travelers (rogue's guild) follow a being called the Hierophant.

Nah my name is an shout out to the designation of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure's Noriaki Kakyoin's stand power...

but the Seers broke the law they accepted by creating abominations on Chantry property, and hid that fact from the Chantry until the Seekers paid them a visit. Until the finale of Asunder all the Circles were under the the Chantry's jurisdiction.

It's daming too when it's stated that they knowingly hid the fact that they broke Chantry law.

The hypocrisy is that the nationalists and local Chantry slaughtered the Rivaini converts for breaking the Llomerryn accord but inturn broke the law of the organization they accepted and previously used as an excuse to genocide the converts who refused their culture.

Was'nt it a common fact that the Chantry knew the Rivain Seers were possessed before the ROA?I don't see how the Seers would stop doing something they considered to be part of their culture just because the Chantry said so.

The difference is that they were doing it on Chantry property in which they kept the main branch ignorant of that fact. 

[cjones91]

The Hierophant wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

@Hierophant Rylock and Meredith were extremists who believed they were above any authority.Meredith even broke one of her vows as a Templar when she started killing anyone who opposed her and refused to give up power,

That's my point. Wilhelm (free mage with family) was lucky that the Ferelden Templar order of his time were majorly lenient in regards to their perceived Mker given authority over mages or else he would have been assassinated by the Temps instead of Shale.

Ferelden is considered one of the most liberal Circle's. Most Circle's aren't like that.

Exactly. If the Circle of Dairsmund was protected by royal decree, the Seekers might have hesitated in Annuling the Circle in an effort to prevent a three way battle with the Monarchy and the Qun. The Dairmund situation seemed out of whack as the Seers used the Circle as a front to placate the Chantry but were breaking the law the had accepted, while the Seekers overreacted as the children and men shouldn't have een killed as the abominations by seer tradition were only mature women.

The Circle there was pretty much just for show. Rivain never really converted totally to the Chantry's view, and their society revered mages, and the Seers were held in very high esteem by non-mages, whereas the Chantry's official view and stance says magic itself is bad.

What happened there was officialy Chantry law conflicting with the local culture and society. But even then, officially a Grand Cleric has to deem a Circle irredeemable and order a Right of Annulment. What happened there was a Seeker heard some mages were visiting families and went to complain about it the Chantry and ordered a Right of Annulment that way.

That seeker broke Chantry law just as much as the mages who weren't hurting anybody and were simply visiting their families were. Only the Chantry breaking its own law led to mass slaughter.

EDIT: Just out of curiousity, is your name based off of Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning? The Travelers (rogue's guild) follow a being called the Hierophant.

Nah my name is an shout out to the designation of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure's Noriaki Kakyoin's stand power...

but the Seers broke the law they accepted by creating abominations on Chantry property, and hid that fact from the Chantry until the Seekers paid them a visit. Until the finale of Asunder all the Circles were under the the Chantry's jurisdiction.

It's daming too when it's stated that they knowingly hid the fact that they broke Chantry law.

The hypocrisy is that the nationalists and local Chantry slaughtered the Rivaini converts for breaking the Llomerryn accord but inturn broke the law of the organization they accepted and previously used as an excuse to genocide the converts who refused their culture.

Was'nt it a common fact that the Chantry knew the Rivain Seers were possessed before the ROA?I don't see how the Seers would stop doing something they considered to be part of their culture just because the Chantry said so.

The difference is that they were doing it on Chantry property in which they kept the main branch ignorant of that fact. 

The thing is though...the Chantry already knew what was going on.

[The Hierophant]

cjones91 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

@Hierophant Rylock and Meredith were extremists who believed they were above any authority.Meredith even broke one of her vows as a Templar when she started killing anyone who opposed her and refused to give up power,

That's my point. Wilhelm (free mage with family) was lucky that the Ferelden Templar order of his time were majorly lenient in regards to their perceived Mker given authority over mages or else he would have been assassinated by the Temps instead of Shale.

Ferelden is considered one of the most liberal Circle's. Most Circle's aren't like that.

Exactly. If the Circle of Dairsmund was protected by royal decree, the Seekers might have hesitated in Annuling the Circle in an effort to prevent a three way battle with the Monarchy and the Qun. The Dairmund situation seemed out of whack as the Seers used the Circle as a front to placate the Chantry but were breaking the law the had accepted, while the Seekers overreacted as the children and men shouldn't have een killed as the abominations by seer tradition were only mature women.

The Circle there was pretty much just for show. Rivain never really converted totally to the Chantry's view, and their society revered mages, and the Seers were held in very high esteem by non-mages, whereas the Chantry's official view and stance says magic itself is bad.

What happened there was officialy Chantry law conflicting with the local culture and society. But even then, officially a Grand Cleric has to deem a Circle irredeemable and order a Right of Annulment. What happened there was a Seeker heard some mages were visiting families and went to complain about it the Chantry and ordered a Right of Annulment that way.

That seeker broke Chantry law just as much as the mages who weren't hurting anybody and were simply visiting their families were. Only the Chantry breaking its own law led to mass slaughter.

EDIT: Just out of curiousity, is your name based off of Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning? The Travelers (rogue's guild) follow a being called the Hierophant.

Nah my name is an shout out to the designation of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure's Noriaki Kakyoin's stand power...

but the Seers broke the law they accepted by creating abominations on Chantry property, and hid that fact from the Chantry until the Seekers paid them a visit. Until the finale of Asunder all the Circles were under the the Chantry's jurisdiction.

It's daming too when it's stated that they knowingly hid the fact that they broke Chantry law.

The hypocrisy is that the nationalists and local Chantry slaughtered the Rivaini converts for breaking the Llomerryn accord but inturn broke the law of the organization they accepted and previously used as an excuse to genocide the converts who refused their culture.

Was'nt it a common fact that the Chantry knew the Rivain Seers were possessed before the ROA?I don't see how the Seers would stop doing something they considered to be part of their culture just because the Chantry said so.

The difference is that they were doing it on Chantry property in which they kept the main branch ignorant of that fact. 

The thing is though...the Chantry already knew what was going on.

How so? The Seekers seemed ignorant of what was happening in Dairsmund's Circle?

[The Hierophant]

It's even stated that there's a Chantry imposed prohibition on the Seers too.

http://dragonage.wik...x_entry:_Rivain

[Last Darkness]

TheRedVipress wrote...

Usually I really hate the "Black-Magic" "Dark-Magic" "Bad-Powers" tropes.

I mean, an atomic bomb can be used in theory to blow an asteroid that is about to wipe out our planet.
The tool is not really evil, it's more what you do with it that matters.

That said, I can't argue that it's okay to chant "Cthulhu fhtagn"...
[/i]...Or to kill slaves to use their blood in rituals.

My question is this: Let's say an experienced mage who knows about the fade and the temptations of demons uses blood magic for good, like killing darkspawn, or demons, or insane red templars, whatever, does this act in itself makes him a bad-guy?

Yes, I know what the chantry and the templars say, but on the other hand, they will probably say anything to keep the mages as their loyal pets.

Take Avernus for example: He isn't a good guy, not by a long shot.
But in some very dark and twisted way, he is still an examplary Gray-Warden, he did *whatever it takes* to really undestand the taint and find new ways to fight it. (I have no doubt that this was how Gray-Wardens were originally created.)

So, he is a blood-mage, AND an abomination.
According to everything the chantry dogma tells us, he should be a drooling homicidel maniac who kills everything that crosses his path.
Instead, he is still comitted to his original goals.

So, what do you think?
Can a mage use blood-magic, or worse, become an abomination and keep his mind intact?

I must commend you, its so nice to see someone with a refreshing pragmatic view of the game. I too saw this when I played (It also helped I read the novels).
I actualy loved Avernus, I spare him and give him free reign to experiment since I too ascribe to the "By any means nessasary" tennent.

Blood Magic is deeply demonised in the lore, it also being taught by demons dosnt help either. I always viewed more about its control focus, the ability to influence the actions of people and you may never even notice this subtly. Its sinister and more like how I think magic should be portrayed, Dangerous and Scary.

It would be better is more magic is like this, think about spirit healer. Healing and ressurection are actualy deeply dark magics that go aginst all the laws of nature. Look at the lore in Star Wars for example the healing force abilities are dark side skills. 

I always viewed it this way at least.

[Seival]

In right hands Blood Magic can do a lot of positive things.
In wrong hands Blood Magic can do a lot of negative things.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...

That is a gross misrepresentation of what happened... Of course the First Enchanter of the Circle would try and pass it off as that was the only reason they got annulled, but we both know that the Circle was far from operating ideally according to general Circle rules. They were intentionally creating Abominations, the mages were not contained, and the list goes on. The fact that the amges were allowed to visit family was not the only reason the Circle got annulled..

It was the official reason given.

No, no it was not. The only source of information from that particular Annulment comes from the First Enchanter who is biased; the Templars that participated have not said anything about it; and while Ferelden is a very liberal Circle, the White Spire also allowed its Harrowed Enchanters to visit Val-Royeaux and even in Kirkwall, the prospect of a trusted mage leaving the Circle to meet a suitor is nothing anyone bats an eyelash at; at least in the first years.
That makes three out of three Circles where we can see that mages are given a certain liberty to wander if they have proven themselves. Therefore, the idea that Rivain's Circle was Annuled more because they were mixing with their families; which could mean anything from a quick visit to staying the night, sleeping with their husbands/wives, children returning home daily, etc; rather than because their entire female population was possessed and ruling over communities does not hold water and it's a deliberate attempt by the Pro-Mages to make it seem like the Templars annuled that Circle for petty reasons.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Pro-mage rhetoric at its finest most transparent levels.