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[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...
MisterJB believes all mages who are possessed by spirits are evil,I wonder what he thinks of people like Wynne who were saved by a noble spirit.

Tell you what, you either stop telling me what I think or I'll report you.

Now, the point is not whether all mages possessed by spirits are evil (which is a term I hate due to its simplistic nature) but rather the fact spirits do not think like humans; for example, they see the world in black and white and have no concept of time; and are corruptible by strong human emotions. This makes them and those possessed by them extremely dangerous because spirits are even capable of completely dominating a human's mind to the point they can force their host to do whatever they wish regardless if s/he wishes to or not.

Given the fact that spirit possession is not necessary for the well being of mages, I do believe we should take a firm stance against it for the well being of everyone, mages included..
Wynne did not choose to be possessed, the Seers did.

[MisterJB]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Can I ask something about Wynne?

What happened in Asunder when she died? Did they mention the Spirit of Faith?

I do not believe that she was an abomination or possessed - and I believe DA:O/2 do not support Spirit Healers being possessed. The text for spirit healer implies assistance - not possession - and there is a difference.

Lambert killed Evangeline; Wynne passed the spirit onto her body so that she could live.

[The Hierophant]

dragonflight288 wrote...

This seems like a repeat of the same fallacious point you made below...

snip

...and what does that have to do with the fact that in that particular instance, the Chantry/templars were acting outside their accepted powers and were therefore criminals, and in the wrong?

You stating that they were criminals doesn't equal them being ones. Can you provide a codex entry or dev statement that indicates that the Seekers actions were illegal? Or is this just your opinion?

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

How were they acting outside the law?

They didn't get authorization for a right of annulment from the Grand Cleric in the area or from the divine, therefore they were acting outside Chantry law.

I'm actually a little confused.  When exactly did the Annulment in Rivain happen?  I thought it happened after Lambert and his templars defected--the letter by the First Enchanter certainly supports that with its reference to the White Spire, but it's also said that the Chantry sent Seekers and templars to Rivain, and afterward those templars conducted the annulment.  

So the Chantry did indeed retain an army of templars despite Lambert's faction?  I thougth that the templars in Rivain were acting on their own authority, but now that I look into it, that doesn't seem to be the case.

*Though it remains a fact that the Templars apparently invoked the Right of Annulment on the spot without waiting for authorization, and it also appears that they did NOT have an emergency situation to justify having done so.

Modifié par Silfren, 02 octobre 2013 - 11:16 .

[Medhia Nox]

@MisterJB: Alright - so that seems to confirm the abomination status. I'd still like to read the exact wording (not asking you to write it btw).

The spirit healer text doesn't suggest possession - and Wynne acts nothing like the other abominations we encounter - even Anders.

[dragonflight288]

Silfren wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

How were they acting outside the law?

They didn't get authorization for a right of annulment from the Grand Cleric in the area or from the divine, therefore they were acting outside Chantry law.

I'm actually a little confused.  When exactly did the Annulment in Rivain happen?  I thought it happened after Lambert and his templars defected--the letter by the First Enchanter certainly supports that with its reference to the White Spire, but it's also said that the Chantry sent Seekers and templars to Rivain, and afterward those templars conducted the annulment.  

So the Chantry did indeed retain an army of templars despite Lambert's faction? 

I don't think every templar split at the same time. It's not lik the chantry has eluvians to spread the word of what happened almost instantaneously, just like the devs said that not every mage entered the circle at once when the Circles were first formed.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
MisterJB believes all mages who are possessed by spirits are evil,I wonder what he thinks of people like Wynne who were saved by a noble spirit.

Tell you what, you either stop telling me what I think or I'll report you.

Now, the point is not whether all mages possessed by spirits are evil (which is a term I hate due to its simplistic nature) but rather the fact spirits do not think like humans; for example, they see the world in black and white and have no concept of time; and are corruptible by strong human emotions. This makes them and those possessed by them extremely dangerous because spirits are even capable of completely dominating a human's mind to the point they can force their host to do whatever they wish regardless if s/he wishes to or not.

Given the fact that spirit possession is not necessary for the well being of mages, I do believe we should take a firm stance against it for the well being of everyone, mages included..
Wynne did not choose to be possessed, the Seers did.

Report me for what?You have indicated that you believe any mage possessed by spirits(even if they are good spirits like Mercy,Faith,and Hope) are just ticking abominations that will go on violent rampages.

The fact Rivain is still intact with few abomination rampages that were quickly contained proves the Seers knew what they were doing.
 
Fade Spirits may be corruptable but then again so is everyone else and if the mage is balanced like Wynne then there is nothing to worry about.

[MisterJB]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@MisterJB: Alright - so that seems to confirm the abomination status. I'd still like to read the exact wording (not asking you to write it btw).

The spirit healer text doesn't suggest possession - and Wynne acts nothing like the other abominations we encounter - even Anders.

You are right, of course. Wynne never shows any sign of mental deterioration or of having her minded melded with another's and Evangeline also says she doesn't feel any different.
Maybe the fact Anders was alive when possessed and Wynne and Evangeline were dead makes all the difference?

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@MisterJB: Alright - so that seems to confirm the abomination status. I'd still like to read the exact wording (not asking you to write it btw).

The spirit healer text doesn't suggest possession - and Wynne acts nothing like the other abominations we encounter - even Anders.

Spirit Healers are more sensitive to Fade Spirits at a young age,Wynne said she could sense the Faith Spirit way before it saved her from death ever since she was younger.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@MisterJB: Alright - so that seems to confirm the abomination status. I'd still like to read the exact wording (not asking you to write it btw).

The spirit healer text doesn't suggest possession - and Wynne acts nothing like the other abominations we encounter - even Anders.

You are right, of course. Wynne never shows any sign of mental deterioration or of having her minded melded with another's and Evangeline also says she doesn't feel any different.
Maybe the fact Anders was alive when possessed and Wynne and Evangeline were dead makes all the difference?

Or it depends on the Spirit.

[Heimdall]

Silfren wrote...
I am reading, yes.  But the fact that YOU say what the Chantry did or didn't know has no bearing on the situation, because guess what, you don't know.  

Given that the Chantry was well aware of the Rivaini cultural tradition, and it was also known that standard Chantry doctrine was not at all widely accepted there, I don't believe for a moment that the Chantry somehow was not aware that such practices were part of the Rivaini Circle itself.

Given the Chantry's inherent suspicion of unauthorized magic, I don't believe that they wouldn't at the very least be suspicious of the Rivaini Circle being "tainted" by the local customs.

I know I don't know.  I was just putting forth a possible explanation.  Simple fact is, neither of us know one way or the other.

I have not said that the Chantry was unaware.  In fact I said the local branch was probably very aware.  However, the priests there are likely Rivaini themselves.  It's quite possible they chose to keep it to themselves rather than risk their already delicate relations with the non-Andrastrians.

[Silfren]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@MisterJB: Alright - so that seems to confirm the abomination status. I'd still like to read the exact wording (not asking you to write it btw).

The spirit healer text doesn't suggest possession - and Wynne acts nothing like the other abominations we encounter - even Anders.

Again, spirit healing has nothing to do with Wynne being possessed, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up.  Do you remember her story? She was in a fierce battle with a powerful demon and nearly killed (or outright killed, depending on your view).  The spirit possessed her and saved her life.  

[cjones91]

Silfren wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@MisterJB: Alright - so that seems to confirm the abomination status. I'd still like to read the exact wording (not asking you to write it btw).

The spirit healer text doesn't suggest possession - and Wynne acts nothing like the other abominations we encounter - even Anders.

Again, spirit healing has nothing to do with Wynne being possessed, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up.  Do you remember her story? She was in a fierce battle with a powerful demon and nearly killed (or outright killed, depending on your view).  The spirit possessed her and saved her life.  

Wynne also said the Faith Spirit was watching her from a young age and that she could sense it.

[Silfren]

cjones91 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@MisterJB: Alright - so that seems to confirm the abomination status. I'd still like to read the exact wording (not asking you to write it btw).

The spirit healer text doesn't suggest possession - and Wynne acts nothing like the other abominations we encounter - even Anders.

Again, spirit healing has nothing to do with Wynne being possessed, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up.  Do you remember her story? She was in a fierce battle with a powerful demon and nearly killed (or outright killed, depending on your view).  The spirit possessed her and saved her life.  

Wynne also said the Faith Spirit was watching her from a young age and that she could sense it.

This is mostly an aside, but I think it's worth pointing out that this refutes the idea that spirits are not interested in mortals.

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...
Report me for what?You have indicated that you believe any mage possessed by spirits(even if they are good spirits like Mercy,Faith,and Hope) are just ticking abominations that will go on violent rampages.

Harrassment. It seems that every time I make a post, you come along and go "MisterJB thinks mages should have no rights...MisterJB approves of genocide...MisterJB thinks all mages and spirits are evil."
That constitutes as harrassment.

The fact Rivain is still intact with few abomination rampages that were quickly contained proves the Seers knew what they were doing.

"Quickly contained" And where exactly is it stated that Abominations are quickly contained?
Nowhere, we have no idea what Rivains do about Abominations but it's statistically impossible no Seer has ever been corrupted.
A country doesn't need to be falling apart in order for there to be "security measures" in place, especially when the rite that is endagering people could be discarded without causing harm to anyone.
 

Fade Spirits may be corruptable but then again so is everyone else and if the mage is balanced like Wynne then there is nothing to worry about.

Not only is Wynne a very rare individual, Anders was quite balanced in DAI. And by act 3, he was willing to kill every single non-mage in Kirkwall if that freed mages "There's no one I wouldn't kill to see mages free"; not to mention that even if he attempts to stop the destruction of the Chantry, Vengeance forces him to go through with it.
Spirit possession is just as dangerous as demonic possession and should be outlawed.

[The Hierophant]

dragonflight288 wrote...

How were they acting outside the law?

They didn't get authorization for a right of annulment from the Grand Cleric in the area or from the divine, therefore they were acting outside Chantry law.

just noticed - Did the split happen before or after Dairsmund, and do the Seekers even need permission?

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Report me for what?You have indicated that you believe any mage possessed by spirits(even if they are good spirits like Mercy,Faith,and Hope) are just ticking abominations that will go on violent rampages.

Harrassment. It seems that every time I make a post, you come along and go "MisterJB thinks mages should have no rights...MisterJB approves of genocide...MisterJB thinks all mages and spirits are evil."
That constitutes as harrassment.

The fact Rivain is still intact with few abomination rampages that were quickly contained proves the Seers knew what they were doing.

"Quickly contained" And where exactly is it stated that Abominations are quickly contained?
Nowhere, we have no idea what Rivains do about Abominations but it's statistically impossible no Seer has ever been corrupted.
A country doesn't need to be falling apart in order for there to be "security measures" in place, especially when the rite that is endagering people could be discarded without causing harm to anyone.

It is also NOT said that Rivain didn't have any security measures in place.  Just like it's NOT said that no Seer has ever been corrupted.  However, the absence of any suggestion, hint, allusion, or anything else of Rivain having a serious problem with abominations DOES INDEED stand as evidence that it is NOT a serious problem.  Which strongly indicates either that the danger IS overstated, or that Rivain has measures to defend against it.  You can argue against this all you want, but it is very much a reasonable conclusion.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@MisterJB: Alright - so that seems to confirm the abomination status. I'd still like to read the exact wording (not asking you to write it btw).

The spirit healer text doesn't suggest possession - and Wynne acts nothing like the other abominations we encounter - even Anders.

Again, spirit healing has nothing to do with Wynne being possessed, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up.  Do you remember her story? She was in a fierce battle with a powerful demon and nearly killed (or outright killed, depending on your view).  The spirit possessed her and saved her life.  

Wynne also said the Faith Spirit was watching her from a young age and that she could sense it.

This is mostly an aside, but I think it's worth pointing out that this refutes the idea that spirits are not interested in mortals.

Spirits are interrested in mortals. They just aren't interrested in crossing the veil. Usually anyway.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Report me for what?You have indicated that you believe any mage possessed by spirits(even if they are good spirits like Mercy,Faith,and Hope) are just ticking abominations that will go on violent rampages.

Harrassment. It seems that every time I make a post, you come along and go "MisterJB thinks mages should have no rights...MisterJB approves of genocide...MisterJB thinks all mages and spirits are evil."
That constitutes as harrassment.

The fact Rivain is still intact with few abomination rampages that were quickly contained proves the Seers knew what they were doing.

"Quickly contained" And where exactly is it stated that Abominations are quickly contained?
Nowhere, we have no idea what Rivains do about Abominations but it's statistically impossible no Seer has ever been corrupted.
A country doesn't need to be falling apart in order for there to be "security measures" in place, especially when the rite that is endagering people could be discarded without causing harm to anyone.
 

Fade Spirits may be corruptable but then again so is everyone else and if the mage is balanced like Wynne then there is nothing to worry about.

Not only is Wynne a very rare individual, Anders was quite balanced in DAI. And by act 3, he was willing to kill every single non-mage in Kirkwall if that freed mages "There's no one I wouldn't kill to see mages free"; not to mention that even if he attempts to stop the destruction of the Chantry, Vengeance forces him to go through with it.
Spirit possession is just as dangerous as demonic possession and should be outlawed.

I was not harrassing and if I gave you that impression then I'm sorry.I just find your posts to be interesting and believe they deserved a response.

Considering the damage abominations can do and the fact some Seers have lost control in the past while the Rivaini brushed them off as natural disasters then it's safe to assume they have some counter measures in place.

And I truly believe that Anders and Justice would have been fine if they had'nt merged together and in the end they sort of corrupted each other.

[Vit246]

Anders is not a good example of Rivaini spirit possession. He's emotionally unstable. Spirits are affected by emotions. Seers in Rivain most likely undergo psychological profiling and such.
What, you honestly think they just freely implant full-blown demons into random unstable mages?
Stop underestimating the competency of mages.

Modifié par Vit246, 03 octobre 2013 - 12:56 .

[Silfren]

Vit246 wrote...

Anders is not a good example of Rivaini spirit possession. He's emotionally unstable. Spirits are affected by emotions. Seers in Rivain most likely undergo psychological profiling and such.
What, you honestly think they just freely implant full-blown demons into random unstable mages?
Stop underestimating the competency of mages.

I'd think it's more likely that the young girls being reared as seers simply undergo training to control their emotions, rather than psychological profiling. but yeah.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I imagine seer's are like jedi, purged of emotions or in a ridiculous amount of control of them to allow the spirit to guide them fully without corrupting it.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 03 octobre 2013 - 01:03 .

[Heimdall]

Frankly, I think the whole seer thing is a dodgy business. Possession is avoided for a reason. I'll reserve judgment until we actually see one in game though.

[Silfren]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Frankly, I think the whole seer thing is a dodgy business. Possession is avoided for a reason. I'll reserve judgment until we actually see one in game though.

But Rivain has been practicing it for generations.  That would seem to indicate that they don't have a history of the same problems that makes it "avoided for reason," and indeed they must have a reason for not avoiding it.

[Heimdall]

Silfren wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Frankly, I think the whole seer thing is a dodgy business. Possession is avoided for a reason. I'll reserve judgment until we actually see one in game though.

But Rivain has been practicing it for generations.  That would seem to indicate that they don't have a history of the same problems that makes it "avoided for reason," and indeed they must have a reason for not avoiding it.

It just means they've found ways to get enough out of it to be worth all the trouble in their view.  Doesn't mean there isn't any.  Like I said, I'd have to actually learn a good deal more about how this works before passing judgement.