626 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oh, I have no doubt that the degree of freedom the Dairismund Circle allowed its mages, played a huge part in its annulment. But I am also able to see, that the amges seeing their families, was not the whole reason.
We know from the letter, that the Templars at first simply tried to get the Circle under control. When that failed, they called the annulment.
And I don't neccesarily think the First Enchanter was trying to paint the Templars in a bad light. It doesn't seem like that was the case anyway. However, I don't think she cared much for historical accuracy either at that point. All she did, was retell the series of events from her own point of view. And it actually gives us a rather good look into what happened, but not a terribly detailed one.

And we can't say anything about the practice of the Seer, since we have ZERO data to speculate on. Rivain has always been one of the weakest nations, we could just as easily use that, as proof somehow, that the seer practice is bad, just as some people insist on using the fact that Rivain still stands as fact that it isn't.

We don't know from the letter that the Templars first SIMPLY tried to get the Circle under control.  The letter very plainly indicates that the templars resorted to bloodshed FIRST.

And yes, we CAN say plenty about the practice.  If Rivaini were overrun with problems due to the tradition, then we WOULD have heard about it.  There is absolutely no reason under the sun to think that terrible things would be happening, and had been happening all along, and the rest of the world didn't know about it.

Modifié par Silfren, 03 octobre 2013 - 07:01 .

[The Hierophant]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oh, I have no doubt that the degree of freedom the Dairismund Circle allowed its mages, played a huge part in its annulment. But I am also able to see, that the amges seeing their families, was not the whole reason.
We know from the letter, that the Templars at first simply tried to get the Circle under control. When that failed, they called the annulment.
And I don't neccesarily think the First Enchanter was trying to paint the Templars in a bad light. It doesn't seem like that was the case anyway. However, I don't think she cared much for historical accuracy either at that point. All she did, was retell the series of events from her own point of view. And it actually gives us a rather good look into what happened, but not a terribly detailed one.

And we can't say anything about the practice of the Seer, since we have ZERO data to speculate on. Rivain has always been one of the weakest nations, we could just as easily use that, as proof somehow, that the seer practice is bad, just as some people insist on using the fact that Rivain still stands as fact that it isn't.

We don't know from the letter that the Templars first SIMPLY tried to get the Circle under control.  The letter very plainly indicates that the templars resorted to bloodshed FIRST.

And yes, we CAN say plenty about the practice.  If Rivaini were overrun with problems due to the tradition, then we WOULD have heard about it.  There is absolutely no reason under the sun to think that terrible things would be happening, and had been happening all along, and the rest of the world didn't know about it.

This depends on their cultural views on violence from abominations as they might be desensitized to it. If so would they even bother to report it to Val Royeaux that an abomination slaughtered some villagers? With the revelation in DA2 that spirits can be corrupted, along with Wynne a spirit healer abomination being unable to sense demonic influence/trickery, i doubt everything in Rivain is all peachy especially when the country possibly contains the largest number of Qunari converts outside of Seheron. Then you have the nationalists's and the Rivaini Chantry's genocide of countless converts during the Storm age because they refused to denounce their beliefs and lifestyle. How bad could the Rivaini way of life have been if a countless number of converts would rather choose death than return to their cultural roots?

Then you have it's Rivaini Chantry who even though it's not confirmed but seems to turn a blind eye on infractions of Chantry law despite it being their job to uphold it. 

If we take into consideration the displays of demonic trickery, the revelation that spirits can be corrupted, i think it's also reasonable to assume that the Rivaini way of life is not majorly peaceful, even though we still lack key information on their living conditions, abomination rates, related damages and deaths.

[Medhia Nox]

@Silfren: You up on all the current events going on in the present day?

I bet you aren't - and this is the Information Age.

[Silfren]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Silfren: You up on all the current events going on in the present day?

I bet you aren't - and this is the Information Age.

And yet the fact remains we WOULD know about things going on Rivain if there were frequent disasters there.  Your comment is stupid and does f*ck-all to refute that.

[Medhia Nox]

@Silfren: Okay. You know best.

[Silfren]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Silfren: Okay. You know best.

Rivain is not an isolated, mysterious island about which the rest of Thedas knows nothing. It is downright ludicrous to think that if regular magic-related disasters were occurring, nobody would about it.  You really think that such a thing wouldn't have made it into the reports of a Chantry scholar?  Or that any such news wouldn't be known to Antiva, and then make it to the rest of the world?  Seriously?  That doesn't even made a shred of sense.

[Medhia Nox]

@Silfren: I think information does not travel as quickly or as reliably as you suggest it does.

I believe large groups can hide their actions for a good long time.

I was only trying to suggest that in the day in age of instant information - most people are still largely in the dark about the "truth" of things going on around the globe and that such a reality could be used to suggest that the few lines of information we've received about places like Rivain might be inaccurate.

----

As for atrocities - the Harrowing Codex states that it is a well known idea that the failed Harrowing students are turned into pigs and eaten (I've mentioned this.)

That's proof of nothing - as, since I suggested, information gets twisted and it's likely that the Rivain mages don't eat failed students.

But what if it "is" the truth? Why do you not look at something like that and wonder if that's the truth trying to get out?

I mean - I think I know why you ignore it - but, I certainly wouldn't try to put words into your mouth.

[The Hierophant]

Silfren wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Silfren: Okay. You know best.

Rivain is not an isolated, mysterious island about which the rest of Thedas knows nothing. It is downright ludicrous to think that if regular magic-related disasters were occurring, nobody would about it.  You really think that such a thing wouldn't have made it into the reports of a Chantry scholar?  Or that any such news wouldn't be known to Antiva, and then make it to the rest of the world?  Seriously?  That doesn't even made a shred of sense.

This depends on how frequently the Rivaini intermingle with foreigners. IIRC Genitivi considered their culture alien and gave a sparse account of the country. He knew little for being a scholar. Considering that it was mentioned that the Dairsmund Circle was created to placate  Val Royeaux while the Seekers who annulled it were ignorant of their living conditions, who knows how much information was kept from them purposely and unintentionally.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 03 octobre 2013 - 10:24 .

[Silfren]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Silfren: I think information does not travel as quickly or as reliably as you suggest it does.

It doesn't have to travel quickly or reliably.  The Rivaini tradition of seers has been going on for a very long time.  If it were causing significant harm to the area, people would know about it by now.  At the very least it would be a rumor the Chantry would make use of for propaganda purpose if nothing else.  The fact that a Chantry scholar says nothing whatsoever speaks volumes.

[The Hierophant]

Silfren wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Silfren: I think information does not travel as quickly or as reliably as you suggest it does.

It doesn't have to travel quickly or reliably.  The Rivaini tradition of seers has been going on for a very long time.  If it were causing significant harm to the area, people would know about it by now.  At the very least it would be a rumor the Chantry would make use of for propaganda purpose if nothing else.  The fact that a Chantry scholar says nothing whatsoever speaks volumes.

Genitivi said the tradition was prohibited.

[Silfren]

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Silfren: I think information does not travel as quickly or as reliably as you suggest it does.

It doesn't have to travel quickly or reliably.  The Rivaini tradition of seers has been going on for a very long time.  If it were causing significant harm to the area, people would know about it by now.  At the very least it would be a rumor the Chantry would make use of for propaganda purpose if nothing else.  The fact that a Chantry scholar says nothing whatsoever speaks volumes.

Genitivi said the tradition was prohibited.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with what we're talking about now.

[The Hierophant]

Silfren wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Silfren: I think information does not travel as quickly or as reliably as you suggest it does.

It doesn't have to travel quickly or reliably.  The Rivaini tradition of seers has been going on for a very long time.  If it were causing significant harm to the area, people would know about it by now.  At the very least it would be a rumor the Chantry would make use of for propaganda purpose if nothing else.  The fact that a Chantry scholar says nothing whatsoever speaks volumes.

Genitivi said the tradition was prohibited.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with what we're talking about now.

You are using the absence of information to declare that the practice didn't negatively impact Rivaini society. It's the same as denying there being no past cases of abuse or rape in the Circles of Magi outside of ones that were specifically mentioned because the players didn't hear about them.

Plus there's the FE stating that the circle of Dairsmund is a facade. Your points hinge on the Rivaini being forthcoming with info to foreigners when it's been revealed that the Seers of Dairsmund were being duplicitous with a prohibited practice.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 04 octobre 2013 - 01:24 .

[Silfren]

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Silfren: I think information does not travel as quickly or as reliably as you suggest it does.

It doesn't have to travel quickly or reliably.  The Rivaini tradition of seers has been going on for a very long time.  If it were causing significant harm to the area, people would know about it by now.  At the very least it would be a rumor the Chantry would make use of for propaganda purpose if nothing else.  The fact that a Chantry scholar says nothing whatsoever speaks volumes.

Genitivi said the tradition was prohibited.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with what we're talking about now.

You are using the absence of information to declare that the practice didn't negatively impact Rivaini society. It's the same as denying there being no past cases of abuse or rape in the Circles of Magi outside of ones that were specifically mentioned because the players didn't hear about them.

Plus there's the FE stating that the circle of Dairsmund is a facade. Your points hinge on the Rivaini being forthcoming with info to foreigners when it's been revealed that the Seers of Dairsmund were being duplicitous with a prohibited practice.

It's more than the absence of information, though yes that is part of it, and not something I think can be discounted.  Genitivit's account makes it clear that the Rivaini people LIKE their seers.  

That the Circle was mainly an appeasement to the Chantry has no bearing on the question.  Abominations destroying the countryside is NOT something the seers would be able to hide from the outside world.

[NUM13ER]

As mentioned a few times in the thread it's largely about the application and how one uses blood magic.

However there are only a handful of instances where Blood Magic is used with any degree of finesse, tact and most importantly self control. It's clear that in the hands of arrogant fools it serves only to attract demons and destroy the user.

Ironically Morrigan's "Dark Ritual" seems to stand as one of the more subtle uses of Blood Magic in the series. Despite it's rather huge implications. It would seem Blood Magic requires the mage be both powerful and disciplined enough to wield it without self destructing. Alas it seems to largely attract only power-mad, short-sighted idiots.

Modifié par NUM13ER, 04 octobre 2013 - 03:13 .

[The Hierophant]

Silfren wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Silfren: I think information does not travel as quickly or as reliably as you suggest it does.

It doesn't have to travel quickly or reliably.  The Rivaini tradition of seers has been going on for a very long time.  If it were causing significant harm to the area, people would know about it by now.  At the very least it would be a rumor the Chantry would make use of for propaganda purpose if nothing else.  The fact that a Chantry scholar says nothing whatsoever speaks volumes.

Genitivi said the tradition was prohibited.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with what we're talking about now.

You are using the absence of information to declare that the practice didn't negatively impact Rivaini society. It's the same as denying there being no past cases of abuse or rape in the Circles of Magi outside of ones that were specifically mentioned because the players didn't hear about them.

Plus there's the FE stating that the circle of Dairsmund is a facade. Your points hinge on the Rivaini being forthcoming with info to foreigners when it's been revealed that the Seers of Dairsmund were being duplicitous with a prohibited practice.

It's more than the absence of information, though yes that is part of it, and not something I think can be discounted.  Genitivit's account makes it clear that the Rivaini people LIKE their seers.  

That the Circle was mainly an appeasement to the Chantry has no bearing on the question.  Abominations destroying the countryside is NOT something the seers would be able to hide from the outside world.

It seems more like the nationalists/traditionalists just accept it regardless of the potential negatives. Like how many irl cultures continue to practice female circumcision, honor killings,  or the stoning of perceived sexual deviants etc.

The Rivaini converts continued existence in the country well after the Qunari were driven off and the nationalists drive to commit genocide against a countless number of converts who refused their culture makes me question why many of their citizens accept the Qun over their free society and culture.

[Silfren]

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Silfren: I think information does not travel as quickly or as reliably as you suggest it does.

It doesn't have to travel quickly or reliably.  The Rivaini tradition of seers has been going on for a very long time.  If it were causing significant harm to the area, people would know about it by now.  At the very least it would be a rumor the Chantry would make use of for propaganda purpose if nothing else.  The fact that a Chantry scholar says nothing whatsoever speaks volumes.

Genitivi said the tradition was prohibited.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with what we're talking about now.

You are using the absence of information to declare that the practice didn't negatively impact Rivaini society. It's the same as denying there being no past cases of abuse or rape in the Circles of Magi outside of ones that were specifically mentioned because the players didn't hear about them.

Plus there's the FE stating that the circle of Dairsmund is a facade. Your points hinge on the Rivaini being forthcoming with info to foreigners when it's been revealed that the Seers of Dairsmund were being duplicitous with a prohibited practice.

It's more than the absence of information, though yes that is part of it, and not something I think can be discounted.  Genitivit's account makes it clear that the Rivaini people LIKE their seers.  

That the Circle was mainly an appeasement to the Chantry has no bearing on the question.  Abominations destroying the countryside is NOT something the seers would be able to hide from the outside world.

It seems more like the nationalists/traditionalists just accept it regardless of the potential negatives. Like how many irl cultures continue to practice female circumcision, honor killings,  or the stoning of perceived sexual deviants etc.

The Rivaini converts continued existence in the country well after the Qunari were driven off and the nationalists drive to commit genocide against a countless number of converts who refused their culture makes me question why many of their citizens accept the Qun over their free society and culture.

Potential negatives =/= actual occurrences of catastrophic destruction.  And as horrific as those things you named are, they aren't even remotely the same thing as abominations rampaging through the countryside leaving death in their wake. 

If possessed seers were causing a great deal of that kind of harm to their nation, people would know about it, and the locals would not exactly be determined to resist Chantry efforts to stamp out the practice.

[Heimdall]

Silfren wrote...


Potential negatives =/= actual occurrences of catastrophic destruction.  And as horrific as those things you named are, they aren't even remotely the same thing as abominations rampaging through the countryside leaving death in their wake. 

If possessed seers were causing a great deal of that kind of harm to their nation, people would know about it, and the locals would not exactly be determined to resist Chantry efforts to stamp out the practice.

I suppose it depends on ratios.  If, say, one in ten or even one in five seers turn abomination and commit massacre, I imagine they could probably maintain their appeal to the common folk if the others proved useful to the community.

[Laughing_Man]

NUM13ER wrote...

As mentioned a few times in the thread it's largely about the application and how one uses blood magic.

However there are only a handful of instances where Blood Magic is used with any degree of finesse, tact and most importantly self control. It's clear that in the hands of arrogant fools it serves only to attract demons and destroy the user.

Ironically Morrigan's "Dark Ritual" seems to stand as one of the more subtle uses of Blood Magic in the series. Despite it's rather huge implications. It would seem Blood Magic requires the mage be both powerful and disciplined enough to wield it without self destructing. Alas it seems to largely attract only power-mad, short-sighted idiots.

Indeed, but it's also completely arbitrary.
My point was that the devision between "good" and "bad" powers is artificial really, if you believe that power can be used for good, than it shouldn't matter if said power dosen't look like the generic "Hero" power set.

[The Hierophant]

Silfren wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Silfren: I think information does not travel as quickly or as reliably as you suggest it does.

It doesn't have to travel quickly or reliably.  The Rivaini tradition of seers has been going on for a very long time.  If it were causing significant harm to the area, people would know about it by now.  At the very least it would be a rumor the Chantry would make use of for propaganda purpose if nothing else.  The fact that a Chantry scholar says nothing whatsoever speaks volumes.

Genitivi said the tradition was prohibited.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with what we're talking about now.

You are using the absence of information to declare that the practice didn't negatively impact Rivaini society. It's the same as denying there being no past cases of abuse or rape in the Circles of Magi outside of ones that were specifically mentioned because the players didn't hear about them.

Plus there's the FE stating that the circle of Dairsmund is a facade. Your points hinge on the Rivaini being forthcoming with info to foreigners when it's been revealed that the Seers of Dairsmund were being duplicitous with a prohibited practice.

It's more than the absence of information, though yes that is part of it, and not something I think can be discounted.  Genitivit's account makes it clear that the Rivaini people LIKE their seers.  

That the Circle was mainly an appeasement to the Chantry has no bearing on the question.  Abominations destroying the countryside is NOT something the seers would be able to hide from the outside world.

It seems more like the nationalists/traditionalists just accept it regardless of the potential negatives. Like how many irl cultures continue to practice female circumcision, honor killings,  or the stoning of perceived sexual deviants etc.

The Rivaini converts continued existence in the country well after the Qunari were driven off and the nationalists drive to commit genocide against a countless number of converts who refused their culture makes me question why many of their citizens accept the Qun over their free society and culture.

Potential negatives =/= actual occurrences of catastrophic destruction.  And as horrific as those things you named are, they aren't even remotely the same thing as abominations rampaging through the countryside leaving death in their wake.

It's about traditionalist cultural perceptions desensitizing it's people to what others would consider reprehensible.

If possessed seers were causing a great deal of that kind of harm to their nation, people would know about it, and the locals would not exactly be determined to resist Chantry efforts to stamp out the practice.

^above response, along with the Chantry prohibiting the practice amongst it's mages, while you still have a population of Rivaini who can't tolerate their living conditions converting to the Qun, who happen to be strongly anti mage in opposition to Rivain's culture.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 04 octobre 2013 - 05:11 .

[SirGladiator]

I find the whole blood magic thing rather confusing. In DAO it didn't really seem to be that big a deal, the Grey Wardens had no problem with it, Jowan was fine when he used it, etc. but in DA2 most people who used it turned into monsters. Although even in DA2 when they talked about Tevinter and its rulers, they talked about how common blood magic was, obviously those folks didn't turn into monsters, they were fine when they used it or else they wouldn't be rulers, they'd be monsters and the others would've killed them already. So it's hard to pin down anything. I know in DAO I played as a blood mage, just because it seemed like a controversial thing, but obviously nobody treated you any different so that didn't really matter . Maybe it's like some folks have said, the weak turn into monsters, the strong can use it like any other form of magic, I don't know. I hope they explain it better, make it a consistent and logical explanation, and stick to it. It was so bizarre to see Merrill being treated like she was crazy (and you still hear people here all the time saying she was crazy) for her quest to fix the Eluvian, when in Witch Hunt you and Morrigan USE one, there's clearly nothing bad about them, but they act like it's this super evil thing that should be destroyed and forgotten in DA2. So much inconsistency and confusion, hopefully in DAI we'll finally get some good, logical answers to some of these questions. It sure would be nice .

[dragonflight288]

SirGladiator wrote...

I find the whole blood magic thing rather confusing. In DAO it didn't really seem to be that big a deal, the Grey Wardens had no problem with it, Jowan was fine when he used it, etc. but in DA2 most people who used it turned into monsters. Although even in DA2 when they talked about Tevinter and its rulers, they talked about how common blood magic was, obviously those folks didn't turn into monsters, they were fine when they used it or else they wouldn't be rulers, they'd be monsters and the others would've killed them already. So it's hard to pin down anything. I know in DAO I played as a blood mage, just because it seemed like a controversial thing, but obviously nobody treated you any different so that didn't really matter . Maybe it's like some folks have said, the weak turn into monsters, the strong can use it like any other form of magic, I don't know. I hope they explain it better, make it a consistent and logical explanation, and stick to it. It was so bizarre to see Merrill being treated like she was crazy (and you still hear people here all the time saying she was crazy) for her quest to fix the Eluvian, when in Witch Hunt you and Morrigan USE one, there's clearly nothing bad about them, but they act like it's this super evil thing that should be destroyed and forgotten in DA2. So much inconsistency and confusion, hopefully in DAI we'll finally get some good, logical answers to some of these questions. It sure would be nice .

Well....did you read Enigma of Kirkwall? I hate it that you have to sift through codexes to get the picture, but centureis earlier, the Tevinter Magisters deliberately slaughtered slaves systematically below the city as an experiment to see how thin they could get the veil that separates the world from the Fade without sundering it.

The veil in Kirkwall is essentially paper-thin, so demons coming through is much easier.

And I also don't get what's the issue with the eluvians. Finn had no problems with them, and he's obviously an expert. Morrigan used one to turn it into a portal to go beyond the Fade, and she's coming back so we know it wasn't a one-way trip. All Merrill did was use blood magic to remove the taint, which was the souce of Merethari's fear in the first place, and starts studying the shard and all the lore she can get her hands on and starts building a new one from scratch. This time without the taint.

[SuperSitzkrieg]

KILL THE DAMN MAGES

[myahele]

I always thought blood magic was the most ancient type of magic and it reminded my of many real-life cultures and religions that use blood sacrifice to appease God(s) and gain some sort of "benefit"

[dragonflight288]

myahele wrote...

I always thought blood magic was the most ancient type of magic and it reminded my of many real-life cultures and religions that use blood sacrifice to appease God(s) and gain some sort of "benefit"

Not true.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Blood_Magic:_The_Forbidden_School

This specifically says that blood magic was initially not considered a school on its own, and was used merely to amplify already existing school's powers, or to make up for the loss of mana.

[dragonflight288]

Comedicsteeler-MG4_LIFE wrote...

KILL THE DAMN MAGES

I can do that too. 

KILL THE DARN TEMPLARS!

But not really. Both sides have goods and bads.