626 réponses à ce sujet

[General TSAR]

All users of blood magic must be purged.

[Trolldrool]

I think it's probably supposed to be the easy way out, a way to cast powerful magic that doesn't require intense study for decades on the subject. As such, it will probably be easy to get carried away. To me, it definitely seems to weaken the Veil much quicker than other forms of magic for some inexplicable reason, which in turn will make it easier for spirits to pass through.

And so even in the hands of a mage with good intentions, blood magic could become a dangerous tool because in saving a city district from the Carta, they might unwittingly let lose a demon that's not noticed until they're gone.

I wouldn't trust the Chantry on reliable information about blood magic since it mostly stems from mythology and superstitious recollections by people that might never have spent more than an hour inside a Circle. But in both games so far, blood magic seems to be source of demons wreaking havoc on civilians that in theory are supposed to be outside the mage-templar conflict like the orphanage in Denerim's alienage.

[CERBERUSDEMAN]

Personally to me with things like this I find what you actually do is more important than what you use to do it.

For example in D&D/Pathfinder I would find raising undead to fight off an attack on a town or raising them so you could fight the BBEG would be good as long as you don't go around slaughtering innocents to get the bodies to raise as undead.

In DA I don't find it evil unless you use it for evil means, kill innocents, enslave innocents, etc. It can be good if you use it for good means, use your own blood to empower healing magic to heal wounds you normally couldn't heal, fight darkspawn, fight demons, etc.

As for the abomination like the normal ones we see in game no I don't think they keep their mind, but for technical ones such as Anders and Wynne as it has been shown yes they can but that could also show that a person that isn't forcefully possesed and has enough willpower could still keep their mind entact.

[myahele]

It's a slippery slope especially if you face constant danger and war.

Ex: Since you plan on killing that soldier anyway, why not use him/ her as a sacrifice to power up your spell(s)?

The fact that you have to make a deal with a demon goes against the Harrowing and Circle rules. As for the "good" examples of blood mages I think it's a matter of will power and strength to fight off demons.

Merrill was skilled enough to be a keeper. Jowan rarely used it because if he did then he wouldn't have been captured/ tortured/ etc. He could've use the mind control abilities for one. Though if he had continued to be on the run then he probably would have been possessed eventually I think

Modifié par myahele, 23 septembre 2013 - 05:51 .

[Hellion Rex]

General TSAR wrote...

All users of blood magic must be purged.

Ok, you are the first to get their blood boiled and thrown to the demons.

[Wulfram]

I'd need a really good reason to try it. Aside from all the various warnings and potential risks, it's liable to make everyone hate you. Which tends to be awkward.

It would probably be more attractive if your character wasn't already an extremely powerful mage.

[DarthLaxian]

Wulfram wrote...

I'd need a really good reason to try it. Aside from all the various warnings and potential risks, it's liable to make everyone hate you. Which tends to be awkward.

It would probably be more attractive if your character wasn't already an extremely powerful mage.

till you meet a templar - then you are not powerfull anymore, you are HELPLESS (so for me: blood-magic is attractive enough to show those blasted zealots that they can't just tread on mages whenever they please!), even more so, as you don't wear armor normally (to have at least some protection against swords, because stone-armor is disspelled whey templars attack you) and you don't have weapons training as a mage (meaning swords and the like)

so yes, blood-magic is very attractive IMHO (even more, if you are a damager mage that tends to burn through his mana like a sports-car through a tank of gass, if you are into driving on the limit)

greetings LAX
ps: note: i don't take if for mind-manipulation (i like that option of course and would love to have it in conversations (like a jedi-mind-trick)), but for it's power in fueling your spells!

[Pride Demon]

There was an interesting topic about the relation between spirit healers and blood mages a couple of months ago...
Let me quote what I wrote there, as it summarizes my opinion on Blood Magic pretty well...
Careful, it's a long(ish) post...

Pride Demon wrote...

As I understand it the reason Blood Magic is considered more dangerous than the art of the Spirit Healer has less to do with direct demonic possession and more to do with the enormous potential for misuse the
former has...
Even ignoring the various things one could do to other people, use of Blood Magic is one of the few ways the Veil can be completely torn in a given location, once that happens demons can pour through unhindered and manifest in their natural form, which is not good.

Those demons that pour through may also simply decide to possess the nearest thing they see, usually the Bloodmage that just created the hole in the Veil, which brings back the possession argument...

Some people also consider it inherently evil since it's a demonic ability (that is, it was originally taught to mortals by demons, at least as far as a few entries in the codex are concerned)...

But in all honesty, I believe the real problem is correctly identified in the following quote:

Bionuts wrote...

There is a difference, however. Any noob can be a blood mage.
I suppose the reason we don't see many Spirit Healers or Arcane
Warriors is because they are an advanced form of magic. Could be wrong,
but that is the impression I got.

As for the Warden mage. She was on top of her age,

It is my opinion that Blood Magic, as you properly stated, is not in and of itself more or less dangerous (when it comes to possession) than any other form of magic, however blood mages are also throughout the games
those who get possessed the most. This apparently wasn't the case back in old Tevinter (and still apparently isn't in current Tevinter).

What changed? Tevinter magisters were blood magic users ON TOP OF them being incredibly powerful mages, most current Bloodmages are incredibly powerful mages BECAUSE they are blood magic users, or at least it is
seemingly so in most Andrastian societies.

The magisters of old understood that if power (in the broadest possible sense) is the goal, Blood magic is an art that an already exceptional mage who (mostly) achieved said power can use to surpass even the few limitations he/she still has, currently blood magic is seen as a quick way to grab power and make a barely passable mage exceptional. In essence, before it was icing to the cake, now it's a crutch...

Now, sooner or later the mage in question will come in contact with a malevolent spirit, as blood magic comes from demons even an average demon is usually capable of countering/nullifying most blood magic tricks. What then? A mage who is powerful in his/her own right can bear to loose a few tricks, but since he/she already is powerful he/she should succeed in subduing a demon, a mage who relies on blood magic to the exclusion of everything else returns the barely passable mage he/she actually is, he/she is overwhelmed and becomes an abomination...

This is the big problem and this is why most think blood magic makes you prone to possession.
As Blood magic is barred in most Adrastian societies, no one actually teaches it, as such it has to be learned either from demons directly (bad) or from old forbidden tomes (also bad). In any case, even if you
are not corrupted/possessed right away while learning, the resulting mage is likely just a dabbler, powerful maybe but still a dabbler. Join this with the fact forbidden stuff draws curiosity, and that some mages resent having to stay in the Circles and may look for quick ways to gain power (even if they are unable to wield it) and you see the problem...

Personally I think an academic study of the History and Theory behind Blood Magic should be mandatory study for most circle Enchanters (with some scrutiny), after all madmen remain madmen and will do crazy stuff whether you forbit it or not, but your average Circle mage could benefit by having a proper understanding of the deeper implication of blood magic use.

The possible advantages would be:
- less "dabblers" who jump at the gun for a quick powergrab without having a clear idea of what the consequences are;
- since that's a demonic power, having a clear idea of how it works and possibly how to counter it never hurts (seriously here, I'm constantly amazed at how Adralla was apparently the only mage smart enough to
understand an Academic study of Blood Magic is the only way to understand how to properly counter it...);
- discovery of simple practical applications of blood magic theory (beyond mind control or making someone explode I mean). I honestly always thought the medical potential of something that can litterally command blood is enormous (someone is about to die of blood loss? Order the blood to retract from the wound and blood cells to start replicating, etc...)

That's my opinion, I am speculating on multiple fronts, so I may be wrong on all counts, I don't know...

inb4 "I'll never trust any word on Blood Magic from someone called Pride Demon"...

Modifié par Pride Demon, 23 septembre 2013 - 07:05 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

billy the squid wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Can animal blood be used for blood magic? Because I don't think it'd be hard to have a ready supply of blood from, say, the butcher shop or a local farm.

I doubt it, there's no indication that it can be. And if it could, then why the use of slaves and human or elvish sacrifice for hundreds s of years in Tevinter.

A demonstration of status and power combined with logistics of transporting animals into the battlefield. Used outside of battle to show that magisters were better than servants and to emphasize their place, also probably a belief about animal blood being less valuable than human blood, like many primitive cultures who practiced sacrifice believed. Than there was the fact that humans or human intelligance leveled beings were much more readily avaliable in a battle than say livestock. It would be a simple task to get a few enemy soliders and use their blood for the blood magic.

And of course from a meta standpoint, it makes the whole thing sound more evil, so the audience will know its serious business.

[RedArmyShogun]

In the name of the Emperor kill all agents of Chaos.

[Iakus]

Blood magic is not "black magic" but it's dark, dark grey. It's power drawn on the life force of an individual, and it must be very seductive to make "those who deserve it" pay the price in more powerful blood magic rituals.

Not to mention the violation of another's mind that it allows for is an extremely slippery slope.

As for becoming an abomination: Wynne has shown it can be done. And apparently some Rivaini seers do so as well. But I imagine it's an extremely dangerous act, for both mage and spirit. As Anders proved.

[Vortex13]

@ Pride Demon

Good points.

Now that I think about it almost all of the crazy blood mages we fought in the past two games were very 'mundane' mages, or didn't know how to control their power (Connor). I have always (as you have said) viewed blood magic not as a strict mind control school but as a means of bolstering the power that is already there.

An experienced mage would know how to use primal magic or creation magic; all blood magic would do is help reinforce what is already present. A Spirit Healer would use Blood magic in place of mana, if potions were scarce; a control over blood itself would be a major advantage when dealing with something like a severed limb or artery.

The problem with blood magic is it is too easy to rely solely on for a mage's power. A bumbling oaf like Jowan (yes I say he is bumbling) is the poster child of what happens when a mage uses Blood magic almost exclusively because of their inadequate masteries of the other schools of magic.

[billy the squid]

Vortex13 wrote...

@ Pride Demon

Good points.

Now that I think about it almost all of the crazy blood mages we fought in the past two games were very 'mundane' mages, or didn't know how to control their power (Connor). I have always (as you have said) viewed blood magic not as a strict mind control school but as a means of bolstering the power that is already there.

An experienced mage would know how to use primal magic or creation magic; all blood magic would do is help reinforce what is already present. A Spirit Healer would use Blood magic in place of mana, if potions were scarce; a control over blood itself would be a major advantage when dealing with something like a severed limb or artery.

The problem with blood magic is it is too easy to rely solely on for a mage's power. A bumbling oaf like Jowan (yes I say he is bumbling) is the poster child of what happens when a mage uses Blood magic almost exclusively because of their inadequate masteries of the other schools of magic.

[Vortex13]

billy the squid wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

@ Pride Demon

Good points.

Now that I think about it almost all of the crazy blood mages we fought in the past two games were very 'mundane' mages, or didn't know how to control their power (Connor). I have always (as you have said) viewed blood magic not as a strict mind control school but as a means of bolstering the power that is already there.

An experienced mage would know how to use primal magic or creation magic; all blood magic would do is help reinforce what is already present. A Spirit Healer would use Blood magic in place of mana, if potions were scarce; a control over blood itself would be a major advantage when dealing with something like a severed limb or artery.

The problem with blood magic is it is too easy to rely solely on for a mage's power. A bumbling oaf like Jowan (yes I say he is bumbling) is the poster child of what happens when a mage uses Blood magic almost exclusively because of their inadequate masteries of the other schools of magic.

-snip-

Yeah Orsono (sp?) actually should be the poster child of a bumbling idiotic mage relying on Blood Magic because his other skills don't measure up.

I mean if his Spirit Healer talents were at their upmost because of his mastery of the Creation school, then he could have of actually saved the Mages that were bleeding and dying around him with the help of Blood Magic, instead of going: "Everything is pointless...... HARVESTERS FOR EVERYONE!"

[Xilizhra]

Orsino's transformation had literally nothing to do with his character, it was forced in because someone wanted another boss fight. Don't bother trying to make sense out of it.

[billy the squid]

To be fair DA2's portrayal of Mages and Templars was facepalming levels of bad, so I tend to disregard it when it comes to considering if it is an accurate portrayal. But it does make excellent fodder for memes and parodies.

[Xilizhra]

billy the squid wrote...

To be fair DA2's portrayal of Mages and Templars was facepalming levels of bad, so I tend to disregard it when it comes to considering if it is an accurate portrayal. But it does make excellent fodder for memes and parodies.

Mages poor, templars accurate enough. If the Reds are any indication, for the latter.

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

Orsino's transformation had literally nothing to do with his character, it was forced in because someone wanted another boss fight. Don't bother trying to make sense out of it.

Yeah, you just have to take into account his protection of the Mage version of Dr. Frankestein. I still think the writing team were drunk, high or concussed when they did DA2, maybe all 3.

[Xilizhra]

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Orsino's transformation had literally nothing to do with his character, it was forced in because someone wanted another boss fight. Don't bother trying to make sense out of it.

Yeah, you just have to take into account his protection of the Mage version of Dr. Frankestein. I still think the writing team were drunk, high or concussed when they did DA2, maybe all 3.

No, that was part of what was thrown in with no regard for his character, as a setup for the boss fight. Another thing it's impossible to make sense of, but for which the writers can't be blamed.

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

To be fair DA2's portrayal of Mages and Templars was facepalming levels of bad, so I tend to disregard it when it comes to considering if it is an accurate portrayal. But it does make excellent fodder for memes and parodies.

Mages poor, templars accurate enough. If the Reds are any indication, for the latter.

Oh yes I forgot, those poor oppressed minorities, so noble in nature, just misunderstood. Don't you have a picket line to be on Xil?

[Xilizhra]

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

To be fair DA2's portrayal of Mages and Templars was facepalming levels of bad, so I tend to disregard it when it comes to considering if it is an accurate portrayal. But it does make excellent fodder for memes and parodies.

Mages poor, templars accurate enough. If the Reds are any indication, for the latter.

Oh yes I forgot, those poor oppressed minorities, so noble in nature, just misunderstood. Don't you have a picket line to be on Xil?

I'm typing this on my phone while on a picket line.

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Orsino's transformation had literally nothing to do with his character, it was forced in because someone wanted another boss fight. Don't bother trying to make sense out of it.

Yeah, you just have to take into account his protection of the Mage version of Dr. Frankestein. I still think the writing team were drunk, high or concussed when they did DA2, maybe all 3.

No, that was part of what was thrown in with no regard for his character, as a setup for the boss fight. Another thing it's impossible to make sense of, but for which the writers can't be blamed.

Hahaha, I love how you selectively disregard, everything which doesn't fit with whatever deranged idea you have. I'll say one thing. The BSN would give me far less opportunities to parody asinine arguments and make fun of the deranged posts without you guys here. You chaps provide me with endless material.

[Xilizhra]

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Orsino's transformation had literally nothing to do with his character, it was forced in because someone wanted another boss fight. Don't bother trying to make sense out of it.

Yeah, you just have to take into account his protection of the Mage version of Dr. Frankestein. I still think the writing team were drunk, high or concussed when they did DA2, maybe all 3.

No, that was part of what was thrown in with no regard for his character, as a setup for the boss fight. Another thing it's impossible to make sense of, but for which the writers can't be blamed.

Hahaha, I love how you selectively disregard, everything which doesn't fit with whatever deranged idea you have. I'll say one thing. The BSN would give me far less opportunities to parody asinine arguments and make fun of the deranged posts without you guys here. You chaps provide me with endless material.

Whereas all I need to know is that your dreams of tyranny will never be fulfilled.

[Reaverwind]

General TSAR wrote...

All users of blood magic must be purged.

Sounds good.

[billy the squid]

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

To be fair DA2's portrayal of Mages and Templars was facepalming levels of bad, so I tend to disregard it when it comes to considering if it is an accurate portrayal. But it does make excellent fodder for memes and parodies.

Mages poor, templars accurate enough. If the Reds are any indication, for the latter.

Oh yes I forgot, those poor oppressed minorities, so noble in nature, just misunderstood. Don't you have a picket line to be on Xil?

I'm typing this on my phone while on a picket line.

Pfffffft, wow, way to show off your white male privilige, using mobile phones. I take it you're sipping a Starbucks as well.