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Blood-Magic. What's Your Opinion?


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#151
billy the squid

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Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Orsino's transformation had literally nothing to do with his character, it was forced in because someone wanted another boss fight. Don't bother trying to make sense out of it.


Yeah, you just have to take into account his protection of the Mage version of Dr. Frankestein. I still think the writing team were drunk, high or concussed when they did DA2, maybe all 3.

No, that was part of what was thrown in with no regard for his character, as a setup for the boss fight. Another thing it's impossible to make sense of, but for which the writers can't be blamed.


Hahaha, I love how you selectively disregard, everything which doesn't fit with whatever deranged idea you have. I'll say one thing. The BSN would give me far less opportunities to parody asinine arguments and make fun of the deranged posts without you guys here. You chaps provide me with endless material.

Whereas all I need to know is that your dreams of tyranny will never be fulfilled.


Wait, are we still in reality or have we moved into Xil in Wonderland? Because the lines tend to be blurred when you are in any mage thread.

#152
The Hierophant

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#153
Volus Warlord

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Xil, you got it all wrong. The "tyranny" over mages is freedom. For the mages and all others.

#154
Xilizhra

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Wait, are we still in reality or have we moved into Xil in Wonderland? Because the lines tend to be blurred when you are in any mage thread.

You will not get what you want out of this game. The mages will not return to the Circle, at least not in its present form. The templars will not win. Nor will the qunari. Magic will not fade.

#155
Volus Warlord

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Xilizhra wrote...

Wait, are we still in reality or have we moved into Xil in Wonderland? Because the lines tend to be blurred when you are in any mage thread.

You will not get what you want out of this game. The mages will not return to the Circle, at least not in its present form. The templars will not win. Nor will the qunari. Magic will not fade.


Get back in the damn tower where you belong

#156
billy the squid

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Xilizhra wrote...

Wait, are we still in reality or have we moved into Xil in Wonderland? Because the lines tend to be blurred when you are in any mage thread.

You will not get what you want out of this game. The mages will not return to the Circle, at least not in its present form. The templars will not win. Nor will the qunari. Magic will not fade.


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Pass the tea when you're done.

Modifié par billy the squid, 23 septembre 2013 - 08:12 .


#157
myahele

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billy the squid wrote...

To be fair DA2's portrayal of Mages and Templars was facepalming levels of bad, so I tend to disregard it when it comes to considering if it is an accurate portrayal. But it does make excellent fodder for memes and parodies.


At 1st I thought people were just overexagerating, but after finishing DA2 last week I must agree. Heck, even mage-sympathizer Thrask and crew went overboard :-\\

#158
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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Xilizhra wrote...

Wait, are we still in reality or have we moved into Xil in Wonderland? Because the lines tend to be blurred when you are in any mage thread.

You will not get what you want out of this game. The mages will not return to the Circle, at least not in its present form. The templars will not win. Nor will the qunari. Magic will not fade.


Silence mage, your kind have no rights.

#159
Laughing_Man

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billy the squid wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

DarthLaxian wrote...


yes, it is a very powerfull tool and it should probably not be given to anyone, but it should not be outlawed IMHO (just because of chantry propaganda)

Who decides?

The fundimental problem with the "only a tool" argument is that you don't want crazy people running around with assualt rifles.

You wouldn't go on a spree because you're a responsible person, but the law has to encompass both you and Mr Shooty McLooney. 

You could regulate, but how would that work in this case given the ease of access and the very nature of the problem - mind control - making judgement itself fallible?


Very simple really.

The exitance of the templars proves that non-mages are able to cast dispel magics from the spirit-school at least to some degree with enough training.
Build a police force, composed of capable soldiers and investigators trained in the use of dispel magics, recruit some law abiding mages to help them too, and enforce the freaking law.

If you catch a criminal-mage, depends on what he did, give him a slap on his wrist, send him to prison, or take his head off.

People should be considered innocent until proven guilty. (or at least until they did something suspicious)


Yeah, we'll just ignore the logistical problems of keeping track of every mage because the Circle is imprisonment, using a phalactery is oppressive, so well just wait for a body count when one mage decides to go nuts, or his reach exceeds his grasp and he's possessed or opens a veil tear. 

Hey, maybe we shouldn't worry about the aspect of blood magic mind control and the temptation to use it for personal gain. Because mages are a noble and opressed minority, and as such would never fall victim to such temptations. 

None of that's a concern and they're all being paranoid, right? Right guys?


Keeping track of every mage?  There is no need for that.
Instead you do the same work a competent police force is supposed to do, you find ways to detect crimes, and then you find ways to prevent them when you can, and enforce the law when you can't.

But  you know what, let's say Mages all lived in self governed circles - which was a solution most mages were willing to accept, but sadly and unsurprisingly the religious fanatic nutjobs were not willing to even consider.
Would that not make the police job alot easier?

Yes, misusing magic is tempting, but like in any other population, most of the mages are regular people who want to live their lives and achive great and good things with their talents, not take over the world and eat little children.

How do you fight against temptation and corruption?
1. You teach your children what it means to do good.
2. You create a strong justice system to handle the occasional psycho.

Oppressing a small number of gifted people, YOUR gifted people (your child can be one of them), who can warp reality, thereby causing alienation and grudges to build up, is one of the stupidest things you can possibly do.
The chantry and templars are just busy reaping what they have sown.

"Right guys?..."

The chant of light says: "Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.".

What the Chantry twisted it into is: "Magic exists to serve the political aspirations of various scheming hags, and bull-headed, fanatic, sex-deprived, zealots."  

And on this kind of people the chant says:
"Foul and corrupt are they, who have taken his gift, and turned it against his children, they shall be named maleficar, accursed ones. They shall find no rest in this world or beyond."

(never mind that the Chant is full of ****... If a "Maker" wanted to help men, he would have given magic to all of them. He's probably more interested in watching men squirm. if he even exits that is...)

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 24 septembre 2013 - 02:41 .


#160
Star fury

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Xilizhra wrote...
Mages poor, templars accurate enough. If the Reds are any indication, for the latter.


OK, so what can you say about DA:O templars? What about knight-commander Gregoir?

#161
Nightwriter

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I'll pass. Demons are all too "I have blood magic, get in the van" about it. Creeps.

#162
Dabrikishaw

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ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

It's a tool nothing more.

Everything is and can be harmful in excess.



#163
KainD

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Star fury wrote...

OK, so what can you say about DA:O templars? What about knight-commander Gregoir?


Gregoir kind are the worst, they dont even understand what the hell they are doing.. 
It's really easier to respect the Red guys, their goals are clear and honest.

Modifié par KainD, 24 septembre 2013 - 06:27 .


#164
wolfhowwl

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Xilizhra wrote...
Orsino's transformation had literally nothing to do with his character, it was forced in because someone wanted another boss fight. Don't bother trying to make sense out of it.


On Orsino helping the Frankenmom killer:

Xilizhra wrote...
No, that was part of what was thrown in with no regard for his character, as a setup for the boss fight. Another thing it's impossible to make sense of, but for which the writers can't be blamed.


Yes, someone noticed that Templar players would fight the leaders of both factions, leaving mage players with only one boss, Meredith, and rather create an alternate second boss for them they just had Orsino go harvester regardless of who you sided with (because rushed game).

But Orsino was ALWAYS going to be a boss fight on the Templar path and the writers meant for his little ritual and comment about Hawke's mother's killer to be a very revealing moment about Orsino. (Amusing the summary on the autosave even says something like "so Meredith was right after all.")

As for him helping the serial killer that was in the game before they added the Orsino boss fight for mage path players. That is who Orsino is no matter how much you might not like it. I believe someone met with Gaider and he hinted that on the mage path he would confess and you could duel him.

http://atraeathing.t...rs-you-got-from

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 24 septembre 2013 - 07:14 .


#165
draken-heart

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My opinion? I have none. There are representatives of all alignments (not counting the Protagonists):

"Good"

Jowan is one. Sure he learned it out of Jealousy, but he was trying to save his girlfriend from getting locked up when he actually did anything.
Another is Merrill. The only reason she did it was to help the Dalish recover some of their lost history. Not that bad

"Neutral"

Avernus and Janeka are the best examples of the "neutral" blood mages. They used it in different situations for the goal of survival. Avernus did use it in research on the taint/warden blood that would be useful in the fight against the darkspawn. His use of demon summoning was only because the wardens' collective back was against the wall. Janeka wanted to bind Corypheus because she thought he could help end the blights.

"Evil"

The biggest examples of this one are the Barroness and every Tevinter Magister ever.

#166
Ziggeh

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Xilizhra wrote...

You will not get what you want out of this game. The mages will not return to the Circle, at least not in its present form. The templars will not win. Nor will the qunari. Magic will not fade.

It's not going to end well for mages either. The entire fiction is built around intractable conflicts that the writers can hang plots and key decisions around. If it all works out swimmingly they have to stop using the setting.

#167
Cainhurst Crow

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Ziggeh wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You will not get what you want out of this game. The mages will not return to the Circle, at least not in its present form. The templars will not win. Nor will the qunari. Magic will not fade.

It's not going to end well for mages either. The entire fiction is built around intractable conflicts that the writers can hang plots and key decisions around. If it all works out swimmingly they have to stop using the setting.


I say the best you're going to get is a return to the status quo, maybe things being a bit better.

#168
DarthLaxian

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Volus Warlord wrote...

Xil, you got it all wrong. The "tyranny" over mages is freedom. For the mages and all others.


being locked up in what is essentially one large cage (without being allowed to travel - unless you have either a templar escorting you or you are someone special (like Wynne)) is freedom now? - nice, report to your residence and stay there, till your (templar!) guard arrives :)

greetings LAX

#169
Ziggeh

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TheRedVipress wrote...

Keeping track of every mage?  There is no need for that.
Instead you do the same work a competent police force is supposed to do, you find ways to detect crimes, and then you find ways to prevent them when you can, and enforce the law when you can't.

Who would be paying for this? The Circle pay for the circles because it benefits them in a number of ways. Would they continue to pay without them?

You could ask landowners to pay, but they're not going to be too jazzed about that, adding a financial burden to the already present safety concerns. That's going to get you a lot of resentment to add to the fear. The circle doesn't just protect people from mages.

And given that you can count mind control amongst the potential crimes, how would that be managed? You'd need a mobile army that could sack whole towns and fortresses to prevent abuse. That's getting costly.

#170
mrpoultry

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Can I use it to last longer? If not, then blood magic can GTFO.

#171
Laughing_Man

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Ziggeh wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...

Keeping track of every mage?  There is no need for that.
Instead you do the same work a competent police force is supposed to do, you find ways to detect crimes, and then you find ways to prevent them when you can, and enforce the law when you can't.

Who would be paying for this? The Circle pay for the circles because it benefits them in a number of ways. Would they continue to pay without them?

You could ask landowners to pay, but they're not going to be too jazzed about that, adding a financial burden to the already present safety concerns. That's going to get you a lot of resentment to add to the fear. The circle doesn't just protect people from mages.

And given that you can count mind control amongst the potential crimes, how would that be managed? You'd need a mobile army that could sack whole towns and fortresses to prevent abuse. That's getting costly.


The chantry wastes mountains of gold to keep it's templars high and dependent on Lyrium, you can take some of the money from there.

The rest? The same way every kingdom pays for it's standing army. It's not much different.
In the long run it will even pay off big time. An elite force of soldiers with some anti-magic abilities reinforced by mages who work with them could lay waste not just to qunari attackers, but also to Tevintar magistars.

Besides, a few chests of gold is a small price to keep the country relatively  happy and calm.

About mind-control:
If you aware of the threat, it becomes less effective.
A. You will have sympathetic, sane, law-abiding mages on your side.
B. You will have templar like investigators that know a thing or two a bout magic and blood magic.
C. You can actually try to research ways to detect and counter it. 
Like an artifact that glows when it senses blood-magic, some other stuff based on the litany of saint what's-his-name.

The possibilities are there if you are willing to look for them.
If you are unwilling, well, that's what brought on all the blood and chaos.

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 24 septembre 2013 - 12:33 .


#172
Ieldra

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My position is simple:

Where there is no tangible evil, there should be no moral condemnation. A "tangible evil" is some actual damage to a person, physical or psychological, caused by my action, as opposed to the mere violation of a principle held sacrosanct. If I use my own blood or that of a willing participant to power a spell to do something useful or beneficial, then there is no evil.

Actually, I'd use the same rationale with regard to deals with demons. It doesn't happen often, but there are situations where you can make a deal with a demon with no detrimental effects for anyone. For instance, if you have Master Coercion you can convince Connor's demon to give you the knowledge of blood magic AND to leave Connor alone. Or if you agree to do the riddle with the sloth demon in the mage origin instead of fighting it, there is no bad outcome for anyone.

Taken as a pragmatic measure to prevent accidents, abominations and abuse, the ban of blood magic may have some merit, but there is no evil in it except the evil you do with it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 septembre 2013 - 01:02 .


#173
Ziggeh

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TheRedVipress wrote...

The chantry wastes mountains of gold to keep it's templars high and dependent on Lyrium, you can take some of the money from there.

Those magic cancelling spells you mentioned are dependant upon the stuff, so it presumably wouldn't be a waste in this instance.

And I know The Chantry have money. That wasn't the question. The question is why would they pay? You're putting a lot of faith in an organisation you yourself has outlined as selfish and corrupt.

TheRedVipress wrote...

The rest? The same way every kingdom pays for it's standing army. It's not much different.

It's very different. A standing army protects the kingdoms power. This would be paying for an army that stood outside of that power. Again, you're assuming people will pay out of the goodness of their hearts when there are cheaper more effective solutions to hand. Like fire and rope.

TheRedVipress wrote...
In the long run it will even pay off big time. An elite force of soldiers with some anti-magic abilities reinforced by mages who work with them could lay waste not just to qunari attackers, but also to Tevintar magistars.

And I'm certain everyone would be thrilled by their independance and none of them would ever abuse the position for personal gain. The circle system is perfectly reasonable until you involve people as well. No one ever plans for people.

TheRedVipress wrote...
Besides, a few chests of gold is a small price to keep the country relatively  happy and calm..

But are probably quite a high price for someone elses happiness, because that would not be the only price. You've now got mages all over the place. And your primary philosophy has been telling you they're wicked and dangerous for millenia. That does not sound like a recipe for calm and happy. That's sounds like a recipe for fire and rope.

TheRedVipress wrote...
About mind-control:
If you aware of the threat, it becomes less effective.
A. You will have sympathetic, sane, law-abiding mages on your side.
B. You will have templar like investigators that know a thing or two a bout magic and blood magic.
C. You can actually try to research ways to detect and counter it. 
Like an artifact that glows when it senses blood-magic, some other stuff based on the litany of saint what's-his-name.

I don't just mean how do you detect it. I mean how do you manage it. Say you accuse the Count of some realm of being controlled. He'll ask where your evidence is, and you'll produce an orb. That glows. QED. At that point you'll have an actual army to deal with. So it's a good job that Count if paying more for your army as well as his own. And everyone will continue to do so when you kill him on the basis of glowing orbs and not in any way as a power grab on your part.

#174
Laughing_Man

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Ziggeh:
I do not claim to have a perfect system.
Or that there is a solution that will give you a future free of potential harm from magic.

What I am saying is that magic is here to stay.
It's not going anywhere, and your child can suddenly reveal himself as a mage.

The chantry is an old institution. A corrupt one. It's understandable that it will resist change.
But change will happen, one way or another. The only question is, how many people will still be alive when the change will arrive.

As I said before, the mages suggested a few solutions to the fear problem you raised:
Like self governed circles. Or far-away mage settlements.
One thing is certain, you can't expect mages to smile and thank the maker when templars rape them, torture them, kill them, turn them into walking automatons, or "just" humiliate them daily and keep them imprisoned forever.

To solve a conflict peacefully, you have to be willing to compromise.
The chantry failed to understand that.

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 24 septembre 2013 - 02:04 .


#175
Xilizhra

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OK, so what can you say about DA:O templars? What about knight-commander Gregoir?

Just as bad, circumstances just aren't favorable to actually dealing with them. We get to fight more in Awakening.

Yes, someone noticed that Templar players would fight the leaders of both factions, leaving mage players with only one boss, Meredith, and rather create an alternate second boss for them they just had Orsino go harvester regardless of who you sided with (because rushed game).

But Orsino was ALWAYS going to be a boss fight on the Templar path and the writers meant for his little ritual and comment about Hawke's mother's killer to be a very revealing moment about Orsino. (Amusing the summary on the autosave even says something like "so Meredith was right after all.")

As for him helping the serial killer that was in the game before they added the Orsino boss fight for mage path players. That is who Orsino is no matter how much you might not like it. I believe someone met with Gaider and he hinted that on the mage path he would confess and you could duel him.

http://atraeathing.t...rs-you-got-from

If true...

Ah well. It may have been a misguided choice, but I can see why he made it, and ultimately, it led to fewer deaths than an early Annulment would have, as Quentin was a slow and selective killer, unlike Meredith. It's arguably a miscalculation, but a forgivable one, as his intentions were good.

It's not going to end well for mages either. The entire fiction is built around intractable conflicts that the writers can hang plots and key decisions around. If it all works out swimmingly they have to stop using the setting.

It may not end perfectly, but it'll likely be better. And there are plenty of other conflicts in the setting to use.