275 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

t0mm06 wrote...

I find it funny that a lot of people see Flemeth as really evil as we have had very little evidence to to this. I mean we have loads of rumors and legends thats she's evil but there are loads of false rumors in Thedas. But i mean all we've seen of her is her help the grey wardens with the treaties, her save the PC twice. The Dalish seem not to see her as evil. Yes we have Morigan, but even there Morigan doesn't say she thinks Flemeth is evil.
I'd say that at worst she is Benevolent, she does seem to have plans for Thedas, but thats not a bad thing, her plans do include stopping the Blight.

Morrigan is omega bit*** so i doubt that anything is for her evil and descriptions her childhood cleary marks who made morrigan that way and that flemeth is crazy sadistic hag she didn't help warden and hawke because she have good heart only because she wanted them for own purposes so saying that she is benevolent at worst is saying that joker is good guy because he didn't kill batman.

[Icy Magebane]

To be fair, Morrigan only told us that Flemeth killed a lot of Templars, which is entirely reasonable since they attacked first. While I don't think Flemeth has good intentions at all, I have to agree that she's done nothing overtly evil... then again, I never read any of the books or comics, so my knowledge is incomplete. Self-serving doesn't automatically mean evil, even if I personally think her endgame will lead to something sinister.

Edit:  I'm actually more inclined to believe that Morrigan took Flemeth's teachings too literally in some cases, and is more likely to twist whatever plan Flemeth has in mind towards evil... But again, this is why I don't like either character.  After 2 games, we have zero information about what either of them wants, and are left with pure speculation.  We don't even have a small clue about what these characters are after, other than "something powerful"... kind of frustrating.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 03 novembre 2013 - 05:09 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Icy Magebane wrote...

To be fair, Morrigan only told us that Flemeth killed a lot of Templars, which is entirely reasonable since they attacked first. While I don't think Flemeth has good intentions at all, I have to agree that she's done nothing overtly evil... then again, I never read any of the books or comics, so my knowledge is incomplete. Self-serving doesn't automatically mean evil, even if I personally think her endgame will lead to something sinister.

Edit:  I'm actually more inclined to believe that Morrigan took Flemeth's teachings too literally in some cases, and is more likely to twist whatever plan Flemeth has in mind towards evil... But again, this is why I don't like either character.  After 2 games, we have zero information about what either of them wants, and are left with pure speculation.  We don't even have a small clue about what these characters are after, other than "something powerful"... kind of frustrating.

Well abusing children when we hear about morrigan childhood and her talking about her lovers and what she was doing to them add to that stories sure it would be just stories about her having many daughters but it turns out that she have at least one daughter and ritual taking control over body exist , probably she kidnapped morrigan and she stated that morrigan isn't her daughter if take that literally and her teaching you can add to that she can turn into dragon and all her "helping" serve only her goals and i doubt that it is being good samaritan.Well we don't see much of her maybe because of that but if we see her she is plotting something.  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Dalish also apparently believe that Asha'bellenar kills most people she meets.

[zMataxa]

Flemeth's goals are likely tied to her true age.
Maybe she's out to expose the maker as an artificial construct in the long run, and expose the truth of the universe.

[t0mm06]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

t0mm06 wrote...

I find it funny that a lot of people see Flemeth as really evil as we have had very little evidence to to this. I mean we have loads of rumors and legends thats she's evil but there are loads of false rumors in Thedas. But i mean all we've seen of her is her help the grey wardens with the treaties, her save the PC twice. The Dalish seem not to see her as evil. Yes we have Morigan, but even there Morigan doesn't say she thinks Flemeth is evil.
I'd say that at worst she is Benevolent, she does seem to have plans for Thedas, but thats not a bad thing, her plans do include stopping the Blight.

Morrigan is omega bit*** so i doubt that anything is for her evil and descriptions her childhood cleary marks who made morrigan that way and that flemeth is crazy sadistic hag she didn't help warden and hawke because she have good heart only because she wanted them for own purposes so saying that she is benevolent at worst is saying that joker is good guy because he didn't kill batman.

Sorry but can you point me towards any evidence of any of this? I mean if Morrigan is so bad, (something i disagree with but that is besfides the point) then surely she might be making out how bad flemeth was a hyperbole?
Also we dont actually know that Flemeth isn't helping just to help. I mean she helped Hawke just because she was interested in him. And yes she then asked for him to help her but that doesn't mean she is evil.  and I'm just saying that because we have no evidence that she is anything other then benevolent. I feel that everything you have said is just because you choose to see her as evil, and she has not denied it. That doesn't make her evil, just that she has not conviced you otherwise. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

t0mm06 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

t0mm06 wrote...

I find it funny that a lot of people see Flemeth as really evil as we have had very little evidence to to this. I mean we have loads of rumors and legends thats she's evil but there are loads of false rumors in Thedas. But i mean all we've seen of her is her help the grey wardens with the treaties, her save the PC twice. The Dalish seem not to see her as evil. Yes we have Morigan, but even there Morigan doesn't say she thinks Flemeth is evil.
I'd say that at worst she is Benevolent, she does seem to have plans for Thedas, but thats not a bad thing, her plans do include stopping the Blight.

Morrigan is omega bit*** so i doubt that anything is for her evil and descriptions her childhood cleary marks who made morrigan that way and that flemeth is crazy sadistic hag she didn't help warden and hawke because she have good heart only because she wanted them for own purposes so saying that she is benevolent at worst is saying that joker is good guy because he didn't kill batman.

Sorry but can you point me towards any evidence of any of this? I mean if Morrigan is so bad, (something i disagree with but that is besfides the point) then surely she might be making out how bad flemeth was a hyperbole?
Also we dont actually know that Flemeth isn't helping just to help. I mean she helped Hawke just because she was interested in him. And yes she then asked for him to help her but that doesn't mean she is evil.  and I'm just saying that because we have no evidence that she is anything other then benevolent. I feel that everything you have said is just because you choose to see her as evil, and she has not denied it. That doesn't make her evil, just that she has not conviced you otherwise. 

Don't i pointed that already?What is to point she abused morrigan and do other crazy stuff pointed by morrigan and stories and when stories exaggerate some things about flemeth she cleary talks about what she did with mens and stories do that and latter we know she have daughter.She helped warden because she wanted ogb and she helped hawke because she needed poster boy for her new body and perhaps knew what hawke will do or even did something to bring it considering that sandal speaks about old scary lady who is laughing and watch him.It seems just that you refuse belive in that what she did except helping warden and hawke (manipulating them into her personal goal) and therat that as act pure goodness because she didn't eat puppies on-screen.

[HiroVoid]

Flemeth's an old witch who has generally used people for her own gain which has generally been her main reason for helping. She describes how she was wronged by the world. Morrigan mentions eerie things about her. Whatever she's planning is almost certainly going to have to do with lots of blood being spilled no matter what the end result is intended to be.

[t0mm06]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

t0mm06 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

t0mm06 wrote...

I find it funny that a lot of people see Flemeth as really evil as we have had very little evidence to to this. I mean we have loads of rumors and legends thats she's evil but there are loads of false rumors in Thedas. But i mean all we've seen of her is her help the grey wardens with the treaties, her save the PC twice. The Dalish seem not to see her as evil. Yes we have Morigan, but even there Morigan doesn't say she thinks Flemeth is evil.
I'd say that at worst she is Benevolent, she does seem to have plans for Thedas, but thats not a bad thing, her plans do include stopping the Blight.

Morrigan is omega bit*** so i doubt that anything is for her evil and descriptions her childhood cleary marks who made morrigan that way and that flemeth is crazy sadistic hag she didn't help warden and hawke because she have good heart only because she wanted them for own purposes so saying that she is benevolent at worst is saying that joker is good guy because he didn't kill batman.

Sorry but can you point me towards any evidence of any of this? I mean if Morrigan is so bad, (something i disagree with but that is besfides the point) then surely she might be making out how bad flemeth was a hyperbole?
Also we dont actually know that Flemeth isn't helping just to help. I mean she helped Hawke just because she was interested in him. And yes she then asked for him to help her but that doesn't mean she is evil.  and I'm just saying that because we have no evidence that she is anything other then benevolent. I feel that everything you have said is just because you choose to see her as evil, and she has not denied it. That doesn't make her evil, just that she has not conviced you otherwise. 

Don't i pointed that already?What is to point she abused morrigan and do other crazy stuff pointed by morrigan and stories and when stories exaggerate some things about flemeth she cleary talks about what she did with mens and stories do that and latter we know she have daughter.She helped warden because she wanted ogb and she helped hawke because she needed poster boy for her new body and perhaps knew what hawke will do or even did something to bring it considering that sandal speaks about old scary lady who is laughing and watch him.It seems just that you refuse belive in that what she did except helping warden and hawke (manipulating them into her personal goal) and therat that as act pure goodness because she didn't eat puppies on-screen.

I'm not saying she is good, i'm just saying that we have no evidence to suggest 'her own goals' are evil. And what abuse did she really show to Morigan? she smashed a mirror, a harsh lesson, but not exactly evil. She killed templars who were after them, again i wouldn't say it was evil, (well no more so then any of the player characters who kill people who try and kill them) in fact she makes out like its a game to morrigan, which could point towards Flemeth trying to protect a young morrigan from the knowlege that men want to kill them.  and She had male visitors is all we know, maybe sexual, we have no evidence that she has killed them. Is the OGB bad? from what we have been told it would be a normal child, not evil.  And yes she helped Hawke, and may have know what he would do... was what Hawke do evil? i mean my Hawke did some good (or tried too) so surely this means Flemeth wanted him to do good? 

And No i never said Flemeth was good, you are the one pointing towards her moral alignment, i'm saying that we have yet to have any evidence which really points towards her being either good nor evil, so far she has been very grey. She has done things to to help Thedas a lot, and whilst you are right, these things have clearly been to further her own goals, we have yet to have any hard evidence as to what these goals are or whether they are good or bad. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

t0mm06 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

t0mm06 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

t0mm06 wrote...

I find it funny that a lot of people see Flemeth as really evil as we have had very little evidence to to this. I mean we have loads of rumors and legends thats she's evil but there are loads of false rumors in Thedas. But i mean all we've seen of her is her help the grey wardens with the treaties, her save the PC twice. The Dalish seem not to see her as evil. Yes we have Morigan, but even there Morigan doesn't say she thinks Flemeth is evil.
I'd say that at worst she is Benevolent, she does seem to have plans for Thedas, but thats not a bad thing, her plans do include stopping the Blight.

Morrigan is omega bit*** so i doubt that anything is for her evil and descriptions her childhood cleary marks who made morrigan that way and that flemeth is crazy sadistic hag she didn't help warden and hawke because she have good heart only because she wanted them for own purposes so saying that she is benevolent at worst is saying that joker is good guy because he didn't kill batman.

Sorry but can you point me towards any evidence of any of this? I mean if Morrigan is so bad, (something i disagree with but that is besfides the point) then surely she might be making out how bad flemeth was a hyperbole?
Also we dont actually know that Flemeth isn't helping just to help. I mean she helped Hawke just because she was interested in him. And yes she then asked for him to help her but that doesn't mean she is evil.  and I'm just saying that because we have no evidence that she is anything other then benevolent. I feel that everything you have said is just because you choose to see her as evil, and she has not denied it. That doesn't make her evil, just that she has not conviced you otherwise. 

Don't i pointed that already?What is to point she abused morrigan and do other crazy stuff pointed by morrigan and stories and when stories exaggerate some things about flemeth she cleary talks about what she did with mens and stories do that and latter we know she have daughter.She helped warden because she wanted ogb and she helped hawke because she needed poster boy for her new body and perhaps knew what hawke will do or even did something to bring it considering that sandal speaks about old scary lady who is laughing and watch him.It seems just that you refuse belive in that what she did except helping warden and hawke (manipulating them into her personal goal) and therat that as act pure goodness because she didn't eat puppies on-screen.

I'm not saying she is good, i'm just saying that we have no evidence to suggest 'her own goals' are evil. And what abuse did she really show to Morigan? she smashed a mirror, a harsh lesson, but not exactly evil. She killed templars who were after them, again i wouldn't say it was evil, (well no more so then any of the player characters who kill people who try and kill them) in fact she makes out like its a game to morrigan, which could point towards Flemeth trying to protect a young morrigan from the knowlege that men want to kill them.  and She had male visitors is all we know, maybe sexual, we have no evidence that she has killed them. Is the OGB bad? from what we have been told it would be a normal child, not evil.  And yes she helped Hawke, and may have know what he would do... was what Hawke do evil? i mean my Hawke did some good (or tried too) so surely this means Flemeth wanted him to do good? 

And No i never said Flemeth was good, you are the one pointing towards her moral alignment, i'm saying that we have yet to have any evidence which really points towards her being either good nor evil, so far she has been very grey. She has done things to to help Thedas a lot, and whilst you are right, these things have clearly been to further her own goals, we have yet to have any hard evidence as to what these goals are or whether they are good or bad. 

She was abusing her emotionally cutting her from others , teaching her sick lessons what made her person what she is now , smashing her mirror , taking her to watch when she was killing templars , and her "guests" and well if ture she was tolding her that she is expected that same from morrigan.Morrigan tells about killing them .OGB isn't in itself bad but flemeth and morrigan are and i doubt that they want raise him to be the messiah i guess that flemeth want his body. Tried is good word because thanks to your(any) hawke we have mage-templar war and chaos with it and somone want chaos in the world and flemeth is ploting something and as i said it isn't kissing peoples and hugging them.She said that world done something to her if you ask what she will tell you that matter between world and her so i guess some kind of revenge may be in as well.     

[t0mm06]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

She was abusing her emotionally cutting her from others , teaching her sick lessons what made her person what she is now , smashing her mirror , taking her to watch when she was killing templars , and her "guests" and well if ture she was tolding her that she is expected that same from morrigan.Morrigan tells about killing them .OGB isn't in itself bad but flemeth and morrigan are and i doubt that they want raise him to be the messiah i guess that flemeth want his body. Tried is good word because thanks to your(any) hawke we have mage-templar war and chaos with it and somone want chaos in the world and flemeth is ploting something and as i said it isn't kissing peoples and hugging them.She said that world done something to her if you ask what she will tell you that matter between world and her so i guess some kind of revenge may be in as well.     

See this is what i mean, you see some of these things as evil, but they are not opinion based, I dont view how she brought up Morrigan as evil, Morigan was a mage, so she was going to be locked up in the circle if she wasn't segrigated with Flemeth. My point is that Everything you have said is 'Evil' is very subjective. We havent had any evidence which is definatly evil, (like the tevinters sacrificing thousands for bloodmagic which we can generally agree is evil), But Flemeth segreating Morigan, i disagree that that in itself is evil. 
Also From how Morigan tells it i dont think Flemeth killed the templars in front of her, Morigan said how she didnt understand that it wasn't a game, also when you ask her if flemth killed them she said she assumed so, (which means she didnt see). 
And 'and her "guests" and well if ture she was tolding her that she is expected that same from morrigan.Morrigan tells about killing them'  I never heard this in Origins and have used every convo with Morrigan i could find (i may be wrong). 
And thats it, you 'guess' she wants the body, but you dont know, you cant know. She could want to save it for the same reason Morgian does, to preserve the old magic. And from what we've been told the soul of the old god wont make the baby evil. (and we dont even know for certain that the old gods are evil)

[TheKomandorShepard]

t0mm06 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

She was abusing her emotionally cutting her from others , teaching her sick lessons what made her person what she is now , smashing her mirror , taking her to watch when she was killing templars , and her "guests" and well if ture she was tolding her that she is expected that same from morrigan.Morrigan tells about killing them .OGB isn't in itself bad but flemeth and morrigan are and i doubt that they want raise him to be the messiah i guess that flemeth want his body. Tried is good word because thanks to your(any) hawke we have mage-templar war and chaos with it and somone want chaos in the world and flemeth is ploting something and as i said it isn't kissing peoples and hugging them.She said that world done something to her if you ask what she will tell you that matter between world and her so i guess some kind of revenge may be in as well.     

See this is what i mean, you see some of these things as evil, but they are not opinion based, I dont view how she brought up Morrigan as evil, Morigan was a mage, so she was going to be locked up in the circle if she wasn't segrigated with Flemeth. My point is that Everything you have said is 'Evil' is very subjective. We havent had any evidence which is definatly evil, (like the tevinters sacrificing thousands for bloodmagic which we can generally agree is evil), But Flemeth segreating Morigan, i disagree that that in itself is evil. 
Also From how Morigan tells it i dont think Flemeth killed the templars in front of her, Morigan said how she didnt understand that it wasn't a game, also when you ask her if flemth killed them she said she assumed so, (which means she didnt see). 
And 'and her "guests" and well if ture she was tolding her that she is expected that same from morrigan.Morrigan tells about killing them'  I never heard this in Origins and have used every convo with Morrigan i could find (i may be wrong). 
And thats it, you 'guess' she wants the body, but you dont know, you cant know. She could want to save it for the same reason Morgian does, to preserve the old magic. And from what we've been told the soul of the old god wont make the baby evil. (and we dont even know for certain that the old gods are evil)

Emotional abuse is still emotional abuse do you think that morrigan born that way no she was teached by flemeth and her poor social skills was because flemeth separated her and when she got mirror she crushed that give her mirror and see how she will react.And she was telling leliana about that.It is hard that she shouldn't think that is only game if she is so fu*** up in dao it is no wonder with flemeth upbringing.Same reason morrigan does it is enough for me morrigan is power hungry selfish bit*** who is ready destroy life everyone to get what she wants.  

[Xiltas]

t0mm06 wrote...

And 'and her "guests" and well if ture she was tolding her that she is expected that same from morrigan.Morrigan tells about killing them'  I never heard this in Origins and have used every convo with Morrigan i could find (i may be wrong). 

Don't know how you missed that one. If you go through her available dialogue options, it should come up at some point. Had that convo on every playthrough.

[Gulaman]

I think Flemeth is either Andraste or connected to Andraste in some way.

[The Xand]

Gulaman wrote...

I think Flemeth is either Andraste or connected to Andraste in some way.

Yeh, she talked Maferath into killing her.

Lol. Xandraste.

[t0mm06]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Emotional abuse is still emotional abuse do you think that morrigan born that way no she was teached by flemeth and her poor social skills was because flemeth separated her and when she got mirror she crushed that give her mirror and see how she will react.And she was telling leliana about that.It is hard that she shouldn't think that is only game if she is so fu*** up in dao it is no wonder with flemeth upbringing.Same reason morrigan does it is enough for me morrigan is power hungry selfish bit*** who is ready destroy life everyone to get what she wants.  

To a degree, but i have know parets to give away their childrens toys to charity when their children has misbehaved, i dont really see why the mirror incident is much different. It also teaches her a lesson, a hard lesson but one she has to learn if she is to remain a apostate, or more importantly a living apostate. 
So yes Flemeth did teach her harsh lessons (probably harsher then needed) but these were to teach her to be strong. Also keep in mind if any of flemeths back story is true, then she is likely to think of the world in a much harsher way, which means she would think her children need to be stronger and harsher to survive.

Also my main point isn't how good a parent Flemth is (i actually like Morrigan and i think that you refereing to her as a 'power hungry selfish ****' EVERYTIME you mention her isn't you trying to get you'r point across, you are just trying to get a rise out of people who like her or see her as a grey character. I can only asume that this is to try and make them angry and a bit more irrational so that you look better in comparision *and by extension your argument would look more valid.)  Any way this wasn't about how good a mother Flemeth was, but rather whether there has been any evidence to prove she is evil. I have yet to be presented with any, which to mean means NOT that she is good, but that she is ambigus and that we cannot and do not know yet

[Angrywolves]

Well there are a couple of Gaider's books. I haven't read the books or comics, so I cheated and read the Wiki. Plus watched a youtube video by Ashe aka Lady Insanity. Luv that voice .
So Flemeth helped Maric and Loghain. Maric made a promise to Flemeth . One player thought they had sex, making Morrigan Cailen and Allistair's half sister and causing morals issues with the Dark Ritual, but I doubt Gaider would do that. Apparently the promise had to do with dragons.
In another book Allistair found Maric along with one of Flemeth's daughters involved with dragons , and he killed both of them.
I don't agree with that being done in a book, it should have been done in a game, if done at all. I have issues with patricide, matricide, and infanticide, what ever the reason . Whether this is considered " canon " for DAI and how it affects Flemeth's plans remains to be seen.

[N7 Shadow 90]

Just a little insight from 'The World of Thedas'. Flemeth was supposedly born in 3:00 Towers, making her 640 years old. Whatever her goals, it's important to remember that without her, the Warden wouldn't have rallied the races, and Hawke may well have not made it to Kirkwall.

[Hellion Rex]

N7 Shadow 90 wrote...

Just a little insight from 'The World of Thedas'. Flemeth was supposedly born in 3:00 Towers, making her 640 years old. Whatever her goals, it's important to remember that without her, the Warden wouldn't have rallied the races, and Hawke may well have not made it to Kirkwall.

I wonder who would have recorded her birth during that era.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I figure that's an estimate according to when the legends first appeared.

[N7 Shadow 90]

''Flemeth is said to be born in the Fereldan village of Highever'' - 3:00 Towers

[Reznore57]

I think Flemeth isn't Flemeth of Highever.
There's a old short story about her , she says "I am myth, and warning, and the thief of souls"(http://social.biowar...dex.php/Flemeth)
She also says she doesn't care about names , I think she's a very old dragon ...who learn shapeshifting and walked among humans.

I guess she betrayed her kind long ago, or they cast her away because she was different.

I'm sure she's also play a role in the Fen'Harel myth , trapping the old gods body underground and their souls in the golden city.

I am not sure where she stands now , she seems a bit sour about humans and such...
Can't blame her , they kill dragons , they unleash the taint .She must have facepalmed a lot.
I tend to think she's trying mostly to keep balance in the world...and she raised Morrigan as a heartless b**** because Morrigan destiny may be to be the new Flemeth.

[Spectre slayer]

 One of her goals was to bring back the ancient dragons with the help of the Therin bloodline to bring back the strongest, which is why she saved Maric and got him to make that promise which was revealed by Yavana who was later stabed by Alistair who refused her.

The dragons are back they will be a part of the story since the main site says "Dragons darken the skies and threaten thedas." Plus that old tweet from awhile the old gods call to you from their ancient prisions will they sing which is a part of the chant involving the return of dragons.

What her main goals are unknown but I don't think she's the main antagonist which mean she's not the one who tore the veil since there's one single mastermind, antagonist, adversary, equeal who created the veil tear which is confirmed btw so it's not a byproduct of some conflict between Morrigan and Flemeth.

Flemeth isn't human, a blood mage, an abomination, a demon or an old god who are all male including Zazikale since the she part was revealed to be a typo by Ben Gelias awhile ago, she can swap bodies and she has a tendacy to "die" and come back in a different body after a number of years or centuries if you actually bothered to ask Arliane the right question. 

[quote]@Nethalf That's an unfortunate typo on page 21. It's correct on page 147. Zazikel is male.3:58pm - 26 Jul 13[/quote] Ben Hellinas

[quote]Although High Dragons are always female, all of the Old Gods, who have the forms of High Dragons, are male

Modifié par Spectre slayer, 06 novembre 2013 - 08:42 .

[Angrywolves]

Should have been in a game, not in a book imo.
I think we'll find out about Flemeth in DAI.

[NessCraig]

Maybe Flemeth IS THE MAKER!!!!

...

EH EH EH !?