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[Clockwork_Wings]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Zazikel was referred to as female on the Dragon Age wiki. This was almost certainly because in World of Thedas and Bioware's page on holidays Zazikel is referred to as "The Old Goddess of Freedom." So presumably the Archdemon was female. But the book and the in game codex refer to Zazikel as male at other points so it's uncertain what is supposed to be true. Razikale's gender is never speicified anywhere I think but I just figured if Zazikel indeed is a feminine name, maybe Razikale is too.

It seems unlikely Flemeth's the Archdemon from the previous Blight. Andoral awoke in the Exalted Age, the legends say Flemeth was born 2 centuries before in the Towers Age. It's possible she's the Old God Baby for Toth, though. The Third Blight came and went around the same vauge time she was said to be born but it's still not clear exaclty when that was because it says she was born in 3:00 Towers, but we don't know if Ages even start in the year 00.

Freedom seems like a trait that would be of importance to her, and Morrigan. 

It's also interesting that, after sending you to dispose of her mother for trying to steal her body, Morrigan is willing to use this ritual.  I'm not convinced that she told the PC everything that was going on right then.  If you follow her through the eluvian is probably when she tells the PC.

[AmazingOlivia]

Clockwork_Wings wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Zazikel was referred to as female on the Dragon Age wiki. This was almost certainly because in World of Thedas and Bioware's page on holidays Zazikel is referred to as "The Old Goddess of Freedom." So presumably the Archdemon was female. But the book and the in game codex refer to Zazikel as male at other points so it's uncertain what is supposed to be true. Razikale's gender is never speicified anywhere I think but I just figured if Zazikel indeed is a feminine name, maybe Razikale is too.

It seems unlikely Flemeth's the Archdemon from the previous Blight. Andoral awoke in the Exalted Age, the legends say Flemeth was born 2 centuries before in the Towers Age. It's possible she's the Old God Baby for Toth, though. The Third Blight came and went around the same vauge time she was said to be born but it's still not clear exaclty when that was because it says she was born in 3:00 Towers, but we don't know if Ages even start in the year 00.

Freedom seems like a trait that would be of importance to her, and Morrigan. 

It's also interesting that, after sending you to dispose of her mother for trying to steal her body, Morrigan is willing to use this ritual.  I'm not convinced that she told the PC everything that was going on right then.  *snip*

That was something that bothered me. Flemeth implies that Morrigan didn't tell you how Flemeth really lengthens her life, and then there Morrigan going ahead with the OGB Ritual, after trying to off the person who wanted the ritual done in the first place. Hmmm...

Modifié par DarkPikmin, 23 septembre 2013 - 05:59 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Unfortunately they have to pick something, and different people are going to find different explanations more compelling.

[AmazingOlivia]

How about Flemeth, the 600 year-old thing?

[Blackout62]

Thanks Gaider for not making me dig for this image.

[TheExtreamH]

Blackout62 wrote...



Thanks Gaider for not making me dig for this image.

And thats why shes not allowed in Skyrim.

[phunx]

Blackout62 wrote...



Thanks Gaider for not making me dig for this image.

Everyone should go watch Orange is the new Black, it's awesome! Kate Mulgrew's role is so cool.

But I do believe body-swapping is real, Yavanna confirms it in the comics actually. But she calls it a gift.

[Johun]

Yavanna isn't necessarily any more privy to Flemeth's real plans than Morrigan.

If Flemeth is a reborn Old God, she would have to be Zazikel. Zazikel is the only Archdemon that we don't have some account of the Warden slaying them dying in the process. And, as others have pointed out, it is referred to as a goddess in TWoT(excerpt can be read here, under Satinalia). Freedom/Chaos as her sphere of influence also fits Flemeth's character.

Orange Is The New Black is indeed good, although I didn't even recognize Kate Mulgrew until afterwards. More the fool I.

[Taura-Tierno]

MasterScribe wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Unfortunately they have to pick something, and different people are going to find different explanations more compelling.

"Flemeth the God" is just plain lazy writing, in my opinion.

How is that lazy writing? It would totally make sense, and it's been hinted at enough, although subtly, that people could speculate about it in the first place. That's pretty good writing, in my opinion. What would be better? Some outlandish, bizarre explanation that could never have been guessed? I mean, that's what the Starchild was, and look how that went ...

Not that I'd oppose another explanation, but I cannot see why Flemeth being and Old God, or even something like the Fen'Harel, could possibly be "lazy writing". 

[azarhal]

DarkPikmin wrote...

What significance does her transforming into a Dragon have?

Last night while played DAO, I had a party banter between Shale and the Swamp Witch (Morrigan). She said that to be able to shapeshift into another animal you need to copy it's soul. She does it by observing and learning the animal behavior, but I suspect being born with the soul of said animal works too.

So you have three choices
- Flemeth was born as a dragon and learned to shapeshift into a human (unlikely).
- She was born as a human, studied dragons for a long time and learned to shapeshift into them.
- She was born as a human, but as the result of a ritual (or magical accident) she had a dragon soul (not necessarily a Old God).

There could be a 4th way as well, but that's just speculatif because the connection hasn't been clearly spelled in the lore. The idea is that blood is linked to an entity's soul, so by drinking blood you get a part of that entity soul in you. This is why Calenhad ended up with dragon blood, why Avexis could control dragons in DotS and how one might learn shapeshifting (beside learning the habits).

Gwydden wrote...

My problem with that theory is where lies
the connection between an ancient dalish deity and a fereldan witch who
married a lord and made a pact with a demon, turning into the most
atypical abomination ever?

One of the first thing "Flemeth" tells you in DAO is that "name are pretty and means nothing" and that the Chasinds call her "Flemeth" and that should be good enough. In other word, she tells you that she isn't the Flemeth of old, it's just that the Chasind believe that she is.

[Br3admax]

Except Morrigan comes right out and tell you that she is and that Flemeth admits as such. The Flemeth in game is the Flemeth of old. Silent Grove only made this argument stronger by adding in another Witch of the Wilds.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

One thing that I remembered when I saw the Flemeth resurrection in Sundermount..

There are Horcruxes in Thedas ?

I mean isn't that what it looked like...?

Additionally, what did Yavana meant when she said that "It is a gift" When Alistair mentions to her that Flemeth possesses her daughters ?

[azarhal]

Br3ad wrote...

Except Morrigan comes right out and tell you that she is and that Flemeth admits as such. The Flemeth in game is the Flemeth of old. Silent Grove only made this argument stronger by adding in another Witch of the Wilds.

This thread is all about "Flemeth" being a manipulator and lying all around and you want to believe her when Morrigan herself end up her storytelling by saying both the Chasind and Flemeth's version of the myth might be lies?

Yavana is The Witch of the Weyrs. It's another myth in another region of Thedas (very far away form the Kocari Wilds and the Chasinds by the way).

Modifié par azarhal, 23 septembre 2013 - 01:31 .

[mousestalker]

Unless she's in dragon form I doubt she would be very good at footie. In dragon form she would be an incredible forward and I could easily see her score unless she happened to eat the ball by mistake.

[Taura-Tierno]

MasterScribe wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Unfortunately they have to pick something, and different people are going to find different explanations more compelling.

"Flemeth the God" is just plain lazy writing, in my opinion.

How is that lazy writing? It would totally make sense, and it's been hinted at enough, although subtly, that people could speculate about it in the first place. That's pretty good writing, in my opinion. What would be better? Some outlandish, bizarre explanation that could never have been guessed? I mean, that's what the Starchild was, and look how that went ...

Not that I'd oppose another explanation, but I cannot see why Flemeth being and Old God, or even something like the Fen'Harel, could possibly be "lazy writing".

None of that has been hinted at, though. It's pure conjecture on the part of forumites, presupposed by assumptions they have made (rather than actual evidence).

That tends to be the only thing theories about the ultimate plot are based on. Someone interprets a piece of lore in a specific way, and that's the basis for the theory. There's rarely a lot of actual evidence for one thing or another, but that does not mean that a particular theory is far-fetched or incorrect. 

It's a whole lot better if Flemeth's true goals are somehow rooted in the lore that we know, so that, even if no one has guessed it, people can look back and say "Well of course, that should've been evident!", rather than introducing some new, far-fetched explanation that's completely unrelated from what we know. 

Flemeth knows a lot about Blights, she says as much herself. And she obviously knows a lot about Old Gods. She's got unprecedented shapeshifting powers by being able to turn into a dragon (same form as the Old Gods). She's not human, and she's not an abomination; Morrigan claims that she is something much, much worse. What would be much worse than a demon, if not a god, of some kind? 

I certainly don't say that there's any irrefutable evidence to support the claim that she is an Old God, or any god at all. But it's as likely a theory as any other that exist. It is not a far-fetched theory, it would fit with what we know.  

Modifié par Taura-Tierno, 23 septembre 2013 - 02:13 .

[Taura-Tierno]

MasterScribe wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Flemeth knows a lot about Blights, she says as much herself. And she obviously knows a lot about Old Gods. She's got unprecedented shapeshifting powers by being able to turn into a dragon (same form as the Old Gods). She's not human, and she's not an abomination; Morrigan claims that she is something much, much worse. What would be much worse than a demon, if not a god, of some kind? 

Morrigan could be wrong.

Of course she could. Or she could be lying. I don't think so, though. She sounded genuinely frightened, and why lead the Warden on a merry chase only to lie to him about Flemeth? 

Flemeth's little horcrux act seems extremely far removed from anything else we've seen. She basically saved a piece of her soul, had one body die, and then was resurrected over a year later, in perfect health and knowing exactly who and what she was. And talked about how bodies are such limiting things, and that she can be in more than one place at once. We haven't seen demons that can do anything like that. Nor mages. So it would make sense that Morrigan was right. 

There's evidence suggesting that Morrigan was right. As far as I've seen, there's nothing to suggest that she was wrong. 

[Taleroth]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

 turn into a dragon (same form as the Old Gods).

She turns into a High Dragon. Maybe half the size of an Old God.

[azarhal]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

 Morrigan claims that she is something much, much worse. 

I love how people own perceptions change in-game quotes. Morrigan doesn't claim anything. This is all she says about her mother in Witch Hunt:

"I thought I knew what Flemeth planned. I thought what she craved was immortality. And yet I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination... She is not even truly human. The ritual was but a means to an end, a herald for what is to come."

Modifié par azarhal, 23 septembre 2013 - 02:53 .

[maliluka]

Morrigan can pretty much tell you anything and you cannot call her out on it as you cannot read the book and prove her wrong. In DA2 Flemeth will tell you that she transferred a small piece of herself into the amulet in case the inevitable occurred and if she knew her Morrigan it already had. So apparently Flemeth knew what Morrigan was planning. And if you question Flemeth about it in DA2 about that, she will say that she raised her to be that way. Also, if you ask her why she didn't bring the amulet herself, or come herself she says she has an appointment to keep, I am guessing that is when your Warden is showing up to confront her.

However she does say she is the "fly in the ointment" and "destiny awaits you both"

[Taura-Tierno]

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

 Morrigan claims that she is something much, much worse. 

I love how people own perceptions change in-game quotes. Morrigan doesn't claim anything. This is all she says about her mother in Witch Hunt:

"I thought I knew what Flemeth planned. I thought what she craved was immortality. And yet I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination... She is not even truly human. The ritual was but a means to an end, a herald for what is to come."

My perceptions did not change. I not exactly what Morrigan said. But did you hear the tone she said it in? Her expression? She certainly did not mean that Flemeth is something "not a blood mage, not an abomination" that makes things better for them. To me, at least, it seemed obvious that Morrigan meant that Flemeth is something worse than she had thought. 

maliluka wrote...

Morrigan can pretty much tell you anything and you cannot call her out on it as you cannot read the book and prove her wrong. In DA2 Flemeth will tell you that she transferred a small piece of herself into the amulet in case the inevitable occurred and if she knew her Morrigan it already had. So apparently Flemeth knew what Morrigan was planning. And if you question Flemeth about it in DA2 about that, she will say that she raised her to be that way. Also, if you ask her why she didn't bring the amulet herself, or come herself she says she has an appointment to keep, I am guessing that is when your Warden is showing up to confront her.

However she does say she is the "fly in the ointment" and "destiny awaits you both"

Of course not. But I fail to see why Morrigan would lie. After all, she waited for the Warden to come to her. She could've escaped otherwise. She didn't have to say anything about Flemeth, anything to indicate that Flemeth was something else. She certainly didn't need to bring the Warden with her, either. 

I'm quite sure Morrigan has her share of secrets. But at this point, it would be disappointing if it turns out that Morrigan just lied, that Flemeth is nothing but an abomination or a blood mage of some power.

Give me a better theory than Flemeth being some form of ancient god-like entity. I am c ertainly open to hearing one. Just have not heard one yet.

Modifié par Taura-Tierno, 23 septembre 2013 - 03:51 .

[animedreamer]

maliluka wrote...

Morrigan can pretty much tell you anything and you cannot call her out on it as you cannot read the book and prove her wrong. In DA2 Flemeth will tell you that she transferred a small piece of herself into the amulet in case the inevitable occurred and if she knew her Morrigan it already had. So apparently Flemeth knew what Morrigan was planning. And if you question Flemeth about it in DA2 about that, she will say that she raised her to be that way. Also, if you ask her why she didn't bring the amulet herself, or come herself she says she has an appointment to keep, I am guessing that is when your Warden is showing up to confront her.

However she does say she is the "fly in the ointment" and "destiny awaits you both"

I call BS on Morrigans body swapping for a number of reasons, while its not 100% factual it does bring her supposed dilemma into question.

There is a old saying that legends are only partially based on fact and speculation. In various tellings of it, Flemeth had a falling out with her daughter witches and chased them all throughout the Kocari Wilds, and ripped out their hearts. It is also said they she captures young chasin children that have wondered away from the group. In yet another tale Flemeth will still your beauty if she catches youy admiring yourself in a mirror. These tales imply a couple of things, 

1 One is that flemeth had more than one daughter at a time.  Why would Flemeth ever need more than one daughter if she ever wanted to body swap?

2 Morrigan says she remembers her mother being younger, long black hair and features much like her own.  Unless Morrigan is older than she looks there is no way Flemeth became as old and wizen as she appears in origins and DA2 

3 Morrigan also tells you that it is not out of the question that Flemeth could have taken on a appearance to attract a man, and lure him into her bed.

4 Yet Morrigan says she herself cannot take on the form of other humans because she is already as they are and thus would gain nothing, yet Flemeth is the one that taught Morrigan how to shapeshift. If Flemeth can take on the form of a younger maiden to allure men, and Morrigan has said she remember her mother being young at some point, then it stands to reason that Shapeshifting can be done to either manipulate your age/appearance on take on other human appearances all together.

5 Also says that she is certain you wont actually kill but slow her down until she can find another body, if she can at all. (Wait a second Morrigan if you are so sure or even half sure of this what's stopping her from taking over your body even if you aren't there?) 

6 Also whos to say she couldn't possess any of her descendants? Such as a child Morrigan herself bore?

The closest thing we have to the actual truth is a item description that sounds as if it was being narrated based on the Wardens perceptions of the quest and the info given them.. in other words it could have been manipulated.

Modifié par animedreamer, 23 septembre 2013 - 04:08 .