275 réponses à ce sujet

[maliluka]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

 Morrigan claims that she is something much, much worse. 

I love how people own perceptions change in-game quotes. Morrigan doesn't claim anything. This is all she says about her mother in Witch Hunt:

"I thought I knew what Flemeth planned. I thought what she craved was immortality. And yet I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination... She is not even truly human. The ritual was but a means to an end, a herald for what is to come."

My perceptions did not change. I not exactly what Morrigan said. But did you hear the tone she said it in? Her expression? She certainly did not mean that Flemeth is something "not a blood mage, not an abomination" that makes things better for them. To me, at least, it seemed obvious that Morrigan meant that Flemeth is something worse than she had thought. 

maliluka wrote...

Morrigan can pretty much tell you anything and you cannot call her out on it as you cannot read the book and prove her wrong. In DA2 Flemeth will tell you that she transferred a small piece of herself into the amulet in case the inevitable occurred and if she knew her Morrigan it already had. So apparently Flemeth knew what Morrigan was planning. And if you question Flemeth about it in DA2 about that, she will say that she raised her to be that way. Also, if you ask her why she didn't bring the amulet herself, or come herself she says she has an appointment to keep, I am guessing that is when your Warden is showing up to confront her.

However she does say she is the "fly in the ointment" and "destiny awaits you both"

Of course not. But I fail to see why Morrigan would lie. After all, she waited for the Warden to come to her. She could've escaped otherwise. She didn't have to say anything about Flemeth, anything to indicate that Flemeth was something else. She certainly didn't need to bring the Warden with her, either. 

I'm quite sure Morrigan has her share of secrets. But at this point, it would be disappointing if it turns out that Morrigan just lied, that Flemeth is nothing but an abomination or a blood mage of some power.

Give me a better theory than Flemeth being some form of ancient god-like entity. 

Morrigan certainly has her share of secrets alright. I would find it highly ironic if the switch had already taken place and Flemeth had already taken over Morrigans body and it was actually Flemeth who was traveling with the wardens the whole time, and she was the one sending you to kill Morrigan.  Now that would certainly be a fly in the ointment

[Johun]

animedreamer wrote...

2 Morrigan says she remembers her mother being younger, long black hair and features much like her own.  Unless Morrigan is older than she looks there is no way Flemeth became as old and wizen as she appears in origins and DA2 

When is this? I recall Leliana's describing her as such in one of her tales, not Morrigan.
"Flemeth's beauty was known across the land. She had hair like unto a moonless night, skin as pale as winter's first snow and eyes as beautiful and perilous as the sea."
A rather apt description of Morrigan, although I've yet to see a golden sea.

[Gwydden]

Johun wrote...
When is this? I recall Leliana's describing her as such in one of her tales, not Morrigan.
"Flemeth's beauty was known across the land. She had hair like unto a moonless night, skin as pale as winter's first snow and eyes as beautiful and perilous as the sea."
A rather apt description of Morrigan, although I've yet to see a golden sea.

Morrigan comments that she thinks she recalls Flemeth much younger and similar to her. However, it seemed like a hazy memory the way she described it.

[Br3admax]

Ask Morrigan if Flemeth were always so old. You'll see it.

You are underestimating the age that a woman can have children up to, as well as the fact that Flemeth is an unknown. People also aged differently during the Middle Ages. And really, the only thing exceptionally elderly about Flemeth is her hair color.

Modifié par Br3ad, 23 septembre 2013 - 04:32 .

[maliluka]

Interesting... I just recall Morrigan saying that she considered Flemeth her mother as Flemeth raised her. when I asked Flemeth a question, (I was a mage at the time) Flemeth mentioned she was looking for another daughter and Morrigan said "trust me you don't want that"

[Taura-Tierno]

Br3ad wrote...

You are underestimating the age that a woman can have children up to, as well as the fact that Flemeth is an unknown. People also aged differently during the Middle Ages. And really, the only thing exceptionally elderly about Flemeth is her hair color.

This. Unless you're all wrinkled to the extreme, actual  age has little to do with how old you appear. Someone like Flemeth would probably be quite good at choosing how people see her, even without shapeshifting. 

[azarhal]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

 Morrigan claims that she is something much, much worse. 

I love how people own perceptions change in-game quotes. Morrigan doesn't claim anything. This is all she says about her mother in Witch Hunt:

"I thought I knew what Flemeth planned. I thought what she craved was immortality. And yet I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination... She is not even truly human. The ritual was but a means to an end, a herald for what is to come."

My perceptions did not change. I not exactly what Morrigan said. But did you hear the tone she said it in? Her expression? She certainly did not mean that Flemeth is something "not a blood mage, not an abomination" that makes things better for them. To me, at least, it seemed obvious that Morrigan meant that Flemeth is something worse than she had thought. 

She never said anything about Flemeth being something worse than her earlier assumptions. Your perception of her voice tone and expression makes you think that she did. Hence, our perception change the in-games quotes...

[Taura-Tierno]

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

 Morrigan claims that she is something much, much worse. 

I love how people own perceptions change in-game quotes. Morrigan doesn't claim anything. This is all she says about her mother in Witch Hunt:

"I thought I knew what Flemeth planned. I thought what she craved was immortality. And yet I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination... She is not even truly human. The ritual was but a means to an end, a herald for what is to come."

My perceptions did not change. I not exactly what Morrigan said. But did you hear the tone she said it in? Her expression? She certainly did not mean that Flemeth is something "not a blood mage, not an abomination" that makes things better for them. To me, at least, it seemed obvious that Morrigan meant that Flemeth is something worse than she had thought. 

She never said anything about Flemeth being something worse than her earlier assumptions. Your perception of her voice tone and expression makes you think that she did. Hence, our perception change the in-games quotes...

It's called interpretation. Let me ask you, then: how do you interpret what Morrigan said? What do you think she's discovered about Flemeth? 

[leaguer of one]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'm thinking her goal is to summon Fen'Harel. Or possibly the opposite of that. But my theory is her scary mysterious agenda is in some way related to Fen'Harel.

I think she is trying to free the elven gods trapped by Fen'Harel.

[leaguer of one]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

 Morrigan claims that she is something much, much worse. 

I love how people own perceptions change in-game quotes. Morrigan doesn't claim anything. This is all she says about her mother in Witch Hunt:

"I thought I knew what Flemeth planned. I thought what she craved was immortality. And yet I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination... She is not even truly human. The ritual was but a means to an end, a herald for what is to come."

My perceptions did not change. I not exactly what Morrigan said. But did you hear the tone she said it in? Her expression? She certainly did not mean that Flemeth is something "not a blood mage, not an abomination" that makes things better for them. To me, at least, it seemed obvious that Morrigan meant that Flemeth is something worse than she had thought. 

She never said anything about Flemeth being something worse than her earlier assumptions. Your perception of her voice tone and expression makes you think that she did. Hence, our perception change the in-games quotes...

It's called interpretation. Let me ask you, then: how do you interpret what Morrigan said? What do you think she's discovered about Flemeth? 

Interpretation means nothing. It's just jumping to assumptions.

[leaguer of one]

Br3ad wrote...

Ask Morrigan if Flemeth were always so old. You'll see it.

You are underestimating the age that a woman can have children up to, as well as the fact that Flemeth is an unknown. People also aged differently during the Middle Ages. And really, the only thing exceptionally elderly about Flemeth is her hair color.

It's made clear that Flemith jumps body to body. The current body of flemeth gave birth to Morrigan but the real Flemeth controling that body maybe something else.

[Taura-Tierno]

leaguer of one wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

 Morrigan claims that she is something much, much worse. 

I love how people own perceptions change in-game quotes. Morrigan doesn't claim anything. This is all she says about her mother in Witch Hunt:

"I thought I knew what Flemeth planned. I thought what she craved was immortality. And yet I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination... She is not even truly human. The ritual was but a means to an end, a herald for what is to come."

My perceptions did not change. I not exactly what Morrigan said. But did you hear the tone she said it in? Her expression? She certainly did not mean that Flemeth is something "not a blood mage, not an abomination" that makes things better for them. To me, at least, it seemed obvious that Morrigan meant that Flemeth is something worse than she had thought. 

She never said anything about Flemeth being something worse than her earlier assumptions. Your perception of her voice tone and expression makes you think that she did. Hence, our perception change the in-games quotes...

It's called interpretation. Let me ask you, then: how do you interpret what Morrigan said? What do you think she's discovered about Flemeth? 

Interpretation means nothing. It's just jumping to assumptions.

Well, please describe Morrigan's tone of voice and demanour when she described Flemeth. I say she sounded very ominous and worried. In fact, I thought it was so obvious that she seemed deeply concerned by her discoveries (whatever they were) that I assumed everybody else saw it the same way. Whether she was lying or just pretending is another matter, of course.

[Br3admax]

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Ask Morrigan if Flemeth were always so old. You'll see it.

You are underestimating the age that a woman can have children up to, as well as the fact that Flemeth is an unknown. People also aged differently during the Middle Ages. And really, the only thing exceptionally elderly about Flemeth is her hair color.

It's made clear that Flemith jumps body to body. The current body of flemeth gave birth to Morrigan but the real Flemeth controling that body maybe something else.

[RazorrX]

Flemeth appeared how she wanted to appear. She was younger when Maric met her, she was Old when the Warden met her, she was different when Hawke Met her, etc. She is a shifter, her real age does not matter.

Morrigan simply has not gotten to that point with her ability. Perhaps she is unaware of it, or she purposely did not tell the warden, since admitting you could be anyone is quite a cause for fear. Imagine if the Templars KNEW that mages could shapeshift into other people.

[azarhal]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Well, please describe Morrigan's tone of voice and demanour when she described Flemeth. I say she sounded very ominous and worried. In fact, I thought it was so obvious that she seemed deeply concerned by her discoveries (whatever they were) that I assumed everybody else saw it the same way. Whether she was lying or just pretending is another matter, of course.

Morrigan's tone of voice and demanour only convey her emotions. You are using these emotions to make her say things she's not saying. She sound concerned, but that concern could be about the "things to comes" or whatever Flemeth planned, it doesn't imply that Flemeth is something worst than a abomination.

[leaguer of one]

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Ask Morrigan if Flemeth were always so old. You'll see it.

You are underestimating the age that a woman can have children up to, as well as the fact that Flemeth is an unknown. People also aged differently during the Middle Ages. And really, the only thing exceptionally elderly about Flemeth is her hair color.

It's made clear that Flemith jumps body to body. The current body of flemeth gave birth to Morrigan but the real Flemeth controling that body maybe something else.

It's on point. It support your point that Flemeth in a way is Morrogan's mother but points out she is something else.

[leaguer of one]

RazorrX wrote...

Flemeth appeared how she wanted to appear. She was younger when Maric met her, she was Old when the Warden met her, she was different when Hawke Met her, etc. She is a shifter, her real age does not matter.

Morrigan simply has not gotten to that point with her ability. Perhaps she is unaware of it, or she purposely did not tell the warden, since admitting you could be anyone is quite a cause for fear. Imagine if the Templars KNEW that mages could shapeshift into other people.

She is a shifter with animal forms, not human. Ageing and changing clothes is not shift changing.

[leaguer of one]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

 Morrigan claims that she is something much, much worse. 

I love how people own perceptions change in-game quotes. Morrigan doesn't claim anything. This is all she says about her mother in Witch Hunt:

"I thought I knew what Flemeth planned. I thought what she craved was immortality. And yet I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination... She is not even truly human. The ritual was but a means to an end, a herald for what is to come."

My perceptions did not change. I not exactly what Morrigan said. But did you hear the tone she said it in? Her expression? She certainly did not mean that Flemeth is something "not a blood mage, not an abomination" that makes things better for them. To me, at least, it seemed obvious that Morrigan meant that Flemeth is something worse than she had thought. 

She never said anything about Flemeth being something worse than her earlier assumptions. Your perception of her voice tone and expression makes you think that she did. Hence, our perception change the in-games quotes...

It's called interpretation. Let me ask you, then: how do you interpret what Morrigan said? What do you think she's discovered about Flemeth? 

Interpretation means nothing. It's just jumping to assumptions.

Well, please describe Morrigan's tone of voice and demanour when she described Flemeth. I say she sounded very ominous and worried. In fact, I thought it was so obvious that she seemed deeply concerned by her discoveries (whatever they were) that I assumed everybody else saw it the same way. Whether she was lying or just pretending is another matter, of course.

It's ominous for reasons for the plot but even then she never points out Flemeth is doing something horrible when asked directly.

[azarhal]

leaguer of one wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Flemeth appeared how she wanted to appear. She was younger when Maric met her, she was Old when the Warden met her, she was different when Hawke Met her, etc. She is a shifter, her real age does not matter.

Morrigan simply has not gotten to that point with her ability. Perhaps she is unaware of it, or she purposely did not tell the warden, since admitting you could be anyone is quite a cause for fear. Imagine if the Templars KNEW that mages could shapeshift into other people.

She is a shifter with animal forms, not human. Ageing and changing clothes is not shift changing.

Why is it that people are arguing about shapeshifting when she could be using blood magic to alter people's mind or just some sort of illusion magic?

[Br3admax]

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Ask Morrigan if Flemeth were always so old. You'll see it.

You are underestimating the age that a woman can have children up to, as well as the fact that Flemeth is an unknown. People also aged differently during the Middle Ages. And really, the only thing exceptionally elderly about Flemeth is her hair color.

It's made clear that Flemith jumps body to body. The current body of flemeth gave birth to Morrigan but the real Flemeth controling that body maybe something else.

It's on point. It support your point that Flemeth in a way is Morrogan's mother but points out she is something else.

No, you were missing the point of the post that said that Flemeth's body is too old to have given birth to Morrigan.
You aren't even addressing the same thing. 

[maliluka]

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Ask Morrigan if Flemeth were always so old. You'll see it.

You are underestimating the age that a woman can have children up to, as well as the fact that Flemeth is an unknown. People also aged differently during the Middle Ages. And really, the only thing exceptionally elderly about Flemeth is her hair color.

It's made clear that Flemith jumps body to body. The current body of flemeth gave birth to Morrigan but the real Flemeth controling that body maybe something else.

It's on point. It support your point that Flemeth in a way is Morrogan's mother but points out she is something else.

No, you were missing the point of the post that said that Flemeth's body is too old to have given birth to Morrigan.
You aren't even addressing the same thing. 

Morrigan makes a mention of Flemeth being the one who raised her, not to say the one who actually gave birth to her. Who knows maybe Flemeth may not actually be able to have children, maybe she goes around and steals female mages raises them as her daughters then takes them over.

[Taura-Tierno]

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Well, please describe Morrigan's tone of voice and demanour when she described Flemeth. I say she sounded very ominous and worried. In fact, I thought it was so obvious that she seemed deeply concerned by her discoveries (whatever they were) that I assumed everybody else saw it the same way. Whether she was lying or just pretending is another matter, of course.

Morrigan's tone of voice and demanour only convey her emotions. You are using these emotions to make her say things she's not saying. She sound concerned, but that concern could be about the "things to comes" or whatever Flemeth planned, it doesn't imply that Flemeth is something worst than a abomination.

I have a difficult time interpreting "I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination ... she is not even truly human." in a way that says "Phew, I was wrong! Flemeth's nothing to worry about!" 

Perhaps "worse" was a poor choice of words on my part. I meant to say that Morrigan implied that Flemeth is something potentially much more powerful than a mere blood mage or an abomination. 

[Br3admax]

Because nothing ever suggests that possession makes one baren.And because being barren comes from the body itself, being able to change the body and change body's makes this a moot point. Plus, and again, all three Witches of the Wild seem to be very similar to me. We can debate who gave birth to who until we're blue in the face, but I think they are actually related.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I believe Morrigan also says that "Flemeth is the one you should hunt, if you would hunt anyone" implying that the Warden has reason to fear her.

[Br3admax]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Well, please describe Morrigan's tone of voice and demanour when she described Flemeth. I say she sounded very ominous and worried. In fact, I thought it was so obvious that she seemed deeply concerned by her discoveries (whatever they were) that I assumed everybody else saw it the same way. Whether she was lying or just pretending is another matter, of course.

Morrigan's tone of voice and demanour only convey her emotions. You are using these emotions to make her say things she's not saying. She sound concerned, but that concern could be about the "things to comes" or whatever Flemeth planned, it doesn't imply that Flemeth is something worst than a abomination.

I have a difficult time interpreting "I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination ... she is not even truly human." in a way that says "Phew, I was wrong! Flemeth's nothing to worry about!" 
 

Right, why would Morrigan both sound worried and say that Flemeth is a problem right before that if that is what she meant. Watch the scene again, she says if anyone needs to be stopped, it's Flemeth.