275 réponses à ce sujet

[ShadyKat]

Clockwork_Wings wrote...

When the PC tells Flemeth that Morrigan knows how she extends her life, she says, "That she does. The question is, do you?"

Makes me wonder how much Morrigan told you was true. I suspect that Flemeth is not the final villain of the series, but is setting herself up to seem as such to get things rolling...for whatever reason.

I also think she's a product of Morrigan's ritual from a previous blight. I found it interesting how certain she was that it would work. How would she know that, unless it had been done once before?

Been saying this for years. Some people are blinded by the fact that they romanced Morrigan, and believe everything she told their warden. Who says she's telling you the truth?  Never trusted her, still don't.



Would not surprise me at all, if she's the villain in DA3. I mean has Flemeth done anything to warrant the mistrust she seems to get? All we know are stories, rumors and fairytales about her. Her actions seem to always point to her helping to save the world, in both DA Origins and DA2.

[Gwydden]

ShadyKat wrote...

Would not surprise me at all, if she's the villain in DA3. I mean has Flemeth done anything to warrant the mistrust she seems to get? All we know are stories, rumors and fairytales about her. Her actions seem to always point to her helping to save the world, in both DA Origins and DA2.

How does starting the Mage-Templar War count as saving the world?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I never get why people are willing to simultaneously mistrust Morrigan's agenda but also believe Flemeth's motives are pure or something.

[animedreamer]

Br3ad wrote...

Ask Morrigan if Flemeth were always so old. You'll see it.

You are underestimating the age that a woman can have children up to, as well as the fact that Flemeth is an unknown. People also aged differently during the Middle Ages. And really, the only thing exceptionally elderly about Flemeth is her hair color.

More than that though Morrigan recants that she and her mother werent always alone in the forest, when talking to Alistair, saying something like, "Mother would often have company other." or something to that effect, implying that her mother had male conquest over at the hut. So thats even more reason to speculate that Flemeth can appear any way she wants.

[animedreamer]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I never get why people are willing to simultaneously mistrust Morrigan's agenda but also believe Flemeth's motives are pure or something.

I never thought of flemeth as a nice old lady but shes a lot more forth coming with her dealings with Hawke and the Warden, and thus is at face value more trust worthy than Morrigan is.

[maliluka]

ShadyKat wrote...

Clockwork_Wings wrote...

When the PC tells Flemeth that Morrigan knows how she extends her life, she says, "That she does. The question is, do you?"

Makes me wonder how much Morrigan told you was true. I suspect that Flemeth is not the final villain of the series, but is setting herself up to seem as such to get things rolling...for whatever reason.

I also think she's a product of Morrigan's ritual from a previous blight. I found it interesting how certain she was that it would work. How would she know that, unless it had been done once before?

Been saying this for years. Some people are blinded by the fact that they romanced Morrigan, and believe everything she told their warden. Who says she's telling you the truth?  Never trusted her, still don't.



Would not surprise me at all, if she's the villain in DA3. I mean has Flemeth done anything to warrant the mistrust she seems to get? All we know are stories, rumors and fairytales about her. Her actions seem to always point to her helping to save the world, in both DA Origins and DA2.

Yes, I have always thought Morrigan has known a lot more than she has let on... Will be very interesting in deed to see how it plays out in DAI

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Is she? We know nothing of her or her plans. She obviously hides what she really is from them. And if Morrigan does know the truth about her and doesn't tell us, that just puts her on equal footing with Flemeth.

[azarhal]

Br3ad wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Well, please describe Morrigan's tone of voice and demanour when she described Flemeth. I say she sounded very ominous and worried. In fact, I thought it was so obvious that she seemed deeply concerned by her discoveries (whatever they were) that I assumed everybody else saw it the same way. Whether she was lying or just pretending is another matter, of course.

Morrigan's tone of voice and demanour only convey her emotions. You are using these emotions to make her say things she's not saying. She sound concerned, but that concern could be about the "things to comes" or whatever Flemeth planned, it doesn't imply that Flemeth is something worst than a abomination.

I have a difficult time interpreting "I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination ... she is not even truly human." in a way that says "Phew, I was wrong! Flemeth's nothing to worry about!" 
 

Right, why would Morrigan both sound worried and say that Flemeth is a problem right before that if that is what she meant. Watch the scene again, she says if anyone needs to be stopped, it's Flemeth. 

"Morrigan: Then allow me to provide you a warning.‘Tis Flemeth you should beware of, not me. Hunt her, if you hunt anyone."

That quote open the dialog option to the other quote I already posted in this thread . The entire exchange is about Flemeth's plan, not what she is. Well, minus the "she's not dead" part.

Might I add that Flemeth's plan being "bad" is based on Morrigan's perception of her mother and concept of life that is based on her upbringing (aka the aweful childhood Flemeth gave her). Morrigan is a tool and playing the role her mother created for her: Flemeth created her own antagonist.

Doesn't mean Flemeth's plan is any good mind you, it's just that Morrigan could be very, very wrong again. Flemeth created herself an antagonist for some reason, it's probably not to be stopped by her though.

[Taura-Tierno]

Br3ad wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Well, please describe Morrigan's tone of voice and demanour when she described Flemeth. I say she sounded very ominous and worried. In fact, I thought it was so obvious that she seemed deeply concerned by her discoveries (whatever they were) that I assumed everybody else saw it the same way. Whether she was lying or just pretending is another matter, of course.

Morrigan's tone of voice and demanour only convey her emotions. You are using these emotions to make her say things she's not saying. She sound concerned, but that concern could be about the "things to comes" or whatever Flemeth planned, it doesn't imply that Flemeth is something worst than a abomination.

I have a difficult time interpreting "I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination ... she is not even truly human." in a way that says "Phew, I was wrong! Flemeth's nothing to worry about!" 
 

Right, why would Morrigan both sound worried and say that Flemeth is a problem right before that if that is what she meant. Watch the scene again, she says if anyone needs to be stopped, it's Flemeth. 

Uhm ... that is what I've been saying all along? That Morrigan implied that Flemeth is dangerous and more powerful than an abomination or a blood mage. 

[Raging Nug]

OP makes a lot of assumptions that aren't necessarily proven.

[Br3admax]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Well, please describe Morrigan's tone of voice and demanour when she described Flemeth. I say she sounded very ominous and worried. In fact, I thought it was so obvious that she seemed deeply concerned by her discoveries (whatever they were) that I assumed everybody else saw it the same way. Whether she was lying or just pretending is another matter, of course.

Morrigan's tone of voice and demanour only convey her emotions. You are using these emotions to make her say things she's not saying. She sound concerned, but that concern could be about the "things to comes" or whatever Flemeth planned, it doesn't imply that Flemeth is something worst than a abomination.

I have a difficult time interpreting "I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination ... she is not even truly human." in a way that says "Phew, I was wrong! Flemeth's nothing to worry about!" 
 

Right, why would Morrigan both sound worried and say that Flemeth is a problem right before that if that is what she meant. Watch the scene again, she says if anyone needs to be stopped, it's Flemeth. 

Uhm ... that is what I've been saying all along? That Morrigan implied that Flemeth is dangerous and more powerful than an abomination or a blood mage. 

Read the first word I said. Perhaps I should have used a period instead of a comma.(I'm agreeing, in case you couldn't tell.)

[AlexanderCousland]

azarhal wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Well, please describe Morrigan's tone of voice and demanour when she described Flemeth. I say she sounded very ominous and worried. In fact, I thought it was so obvious that she seemed deeply concerned by her discoveries (whatever they were) that I assumed everybody else saw it the same way. Whether she was lying or just pretending is another matter, of course.

Morrigan's tone of voice and demanour only convey her emotions. You are using these emotions to make her say things she's not saying. She sound concerned, but that concern could be about the "things to comes" or whatever Flemeth planned, it doesn't imply that Flemeth is something worst than a abomination.

I have a difficult time interpreting "I was wrong. So very wrong. She is no blood mage, no abomination ... she is not even truly human." in a way that says "Phew, I was wrong! Flemeth's nothing to worry about!" 
 

Right, why would Morrigan both sound worried and say that Flemeth is a problem right before that if that is what she meant. Watch the scene again, she says if anyone needs to be stopped, it's Flemeth. 

"Morrigan: Then allow me to provide you a warning.‘Tis Flemeth you should beware of, not me. Hunt her, if you hunt anyone."

That quote open the dialog option to the other quote I already posted in this thread . The entire exchange is about Flemeth's plan, not what she is. Well, minus the "she's not dead" part.

Might I add that Flemeth's plan being "bad" is based on Morrigan's perception of her mother and concept of life that is based on her upbringing (aka the aweful childhood Flemeth gave her). Morrigan is a tool and playing the role her mother created for her: Flemeth created her own antagonist.

Doesn't mean Flemeth's plan is any good mind you, it's just that Morrigan could be very, very wrong again. Flemeth created herself an antagonist for some reason, it's probably not to be stopped by her though.

Did you know Morrigan isn't really Flemeth' s daughter?  
Truth, according to Flemeth or at least Varric' s story.

 AND THEY ARE NOT ENIMIES
DRAGON AGE 2 
Hawke : "I cant understand wether she's (Morrigan) your daughter or your enemy"
Flemeth: " Neither is she" 

[Aolbain]

I haven't the slightest clue. But she (and to a lesser extent, Morrigan) gives me serous Kreia vibes (and that is a good thing). 

Modifié par Aolbain, 23 septembre 2013 - 07:33 .

[aries1001]

If you play as a mage as I do just now playing DA:O, Morrigan at one point will tell you that Flemeth at one point in time bound herself to a spirit from the Fade, thus becoming an abomination. If this info is true or not, I don't know. Or it could also be that Morrigan possibly lies....or maybe it is Flemeth who lies...both to Hawke, to the Warden, and to Morrigan. [I can't remember if you have to an approval rating of 25+ to get this option in Morrigan's dialogue with the Warden].

Om topic:
Flemeth's goal is? yes, what it is really? To me, it seems shrouded in mystery what Flemeth's goal(s) really are. Maybe they are to raise the Old Gods? Maybe they are to summon Fen'Harel, the ancient Elven Trickster God? Or maybe they to make the Old God Baby, an ancient darkspawn, or an ancient God? born without the taint...

Or maybe Flemeth's goals os just to trick us all...

[AutumnWitch]

Flemeth has to be a demi-god at most and not a full blown god. Most likely IMO she is one of the most powerful mortal entities and not a even demi-god. The fact that she has to resort to making a horcrux for Hawke suggests she is very much afraid of dying. Thus, she is clearly not immortal.

However, she knows both what Hawke and the Warden are going to go. In DA she even states something like "Is it chance or fate? I can ever decide" This clearly indicates two things.

One - She is not making these things happen so she is not a "primal mover"
Two - Even though she has been around so long and seen so many significant she doesn't have the actual knowledge of what controls these things. (Confusion on fate/chance)

However, she does have a stake in what happens, thus this explains why she saves both Hawke and the Warden in the first place. This suggests that she is working against some other force who would have Hawke & Warden die. In her mind it is imperative that they live which means she has some type of ultimate motive and is not just some force of nature that observes things for the sake of observing them. Which of course begs the question, "What is her motive?"


Next, she is so powerful magically she can split her soul, transform into a high dragon and has from all we can tell, the best "sight" in Thedas. However, due to the very fact that she does save Hawke and the Warden means that "fate" is not fixed. She knew by saying Hawke for example, what she/he would go on to do. Thus we must assume she wanted the Mage/Templar civil war to occur which again goes back to her ultimate motive. So we have to ask ourselves, how does a Mage/Templar civil war benefit Flemeth?

Next, there is clearly a connection between Sandal and Flemeth. But is it adversarial or not? The problem here is that we know Flemeth has been watching Sandal. This leads me down two different trains of thought, One, Flemeth has a vested interest in what he does but can only observe what he does or (what I think is the actual answer) is that Flemeth is either the root of Sandal's powers or she is powerful enough that she can control him. It's no accident that Sandal is always where the Warden or Hawke needs him and as stated above, since Flemeth had such a vested interest in both Hawke and the Warden succeeding that she used her power/influence to make sure Sandal was there to help the both of them. And as we all know, they are heading to Orlais now so again, right where the action is. Not a coincidence.

Clearly Flemeth wants there to be a significant change in the power structure in Thedas. Everything she has done is to bring forth major shifts in power and influence. If we assume that Flemeth is working from her own motivation (meaning she is not the agent of someone's else's desires) then it means that whatever her ultimate goal is, it is related to this. But why this? Why does she care at all?

Now here comes my theory. What we have seen of Flemeth's actions in both DAO and DA2 is that she is very worried about something she has "seen" and she is trying to change "fate". She must see something so horrific that she feels compelled to intervene in human/worldly affairs. So I think that in reality Flemeth is not a villain BUT ultimately a saviour.

We shall see!

[Clockwork_Wings]

Another theory, forget where I heard it (TVTropes, probably) was that Flemeth doesn't want Morrigan's body, she wants the baby's. The rebuttal is that the child is stated by Morrigan to be male, and there isn't any indication that Flemeth is particularly interested in taking a male body, as the legends state daughters and not sons.

Following that, that makes it even weirder when Morrigan states that you need to kill her mother to protect her, and wants the baby anyway. Unless disposing of the previous form is part of the ritual, but still...

I think that Morrigan doesn't have all the facts, and is giving you even less. I think that Flemeth is not the final boss of the series, but is setting herself up to appear as such to get things rolling (perhaps you'd believe she's the big bad in all this, before you'd believe what's really going on?). Finally, I think the wardens that follow Morrigan through the eluvian finally get the truth.

And how cool would it be if they pulled an Eternal Darkness and it turns out all the world-states are true across all playthroughs, just in parallel dimensions?

[Volus Warlord]

I honestly thought she was just going to use the OGB to start another blight.

And the cycle continues..

[Fishy]

She's annoying. .I am OLLLLD and powerfulllll and crypticccc and enigmaticccc .. Fantasy cliche trope. Just go away from me you old annoying has been .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

What would be the point of helping stop a blight for the express purpose of starting another one?

[Vilegrim]

My guess is bring back the remaining old gods. Maybe that should be other old gods if my favorite wmg about her is true.

[Volus Warlord]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

What would be the point of helping stop a blight for the express purpose of starting another one?

Heh. Well, if she figures it's gonna fail either way, why not have some insurance?

[Vilegrim]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

What would be the point of helping stop a blight for the express purpose of starting another one?

 

The dark ritual.  Or more accurately another one, tho who gets to be the mother is an open question.

The veil tear maybe her could be an accident or something going off early.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 23 septembre 2013 - 07:59 .

[The Hierophant]

Vilegrim wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

What would be the point of helping stop a blight for the express purpose of starting another one?

 

The dark ritual.  Or more accurately another one, tho who gets to be the mother is an open question.

I hope it's not Flemeth.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 23 septembre 2013 - 07:59 .

[aries1001]

Johun wrote...

animedreamer wrote...

2 Morrigan says she remembers her mother being younger, long black hair and features much like her own.  Unless Morrigan is older than she looks there is no way Flemeth became as old and wizen as she appears in origins and DA2 

When is this? I recall Leliana's describing her as such in one of her tales, not Morrigan.
"Flemeth's beauty was known across the land. She had hair like unto a moonless night, skin as pale as winter's first snow and eyes as beautiful and perilous as the sea."
A rather apt description of Morrigan, although I've yet to see a golden sea.

Isn't this how Flemeth presents herself to Hawke at the beginning of DA2?

---

On topic:

Interesting idea that Morrigan and Flemeth already have exchanged places before the Warden goes to kill her - or not kill her, Flemeth that is. When did this then happen: To me, it could have happened when Flemeth tells Morrigan to go with the Warden and his/her party. There simply is something about the tone of their conversation and the expression they give each other at this time. It couldn't happen when the warden+party goes to kill - or not kill - Flemeth, because Morrigan is not present at this time - or is she?

[Bfler]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

What would be the point of helping stop a blight for the express purpose of starting another one?

She is a hidden Sith Lord and wants to be the ruler of the first empire in Thedas. Therefore she must extinguish the darkspawn (= droid army) and replace them with her army of clones.

Modifié par Bfler, 24 septembre 2013 - 09:30 .