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[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well we know the Old Gods exist. It's still up to the players or characters to decide if they feel they are gods or divine or not. If Fen'Harel is encoutnered in the games , the same could still be true for how they feel about him.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 septembre 2013 - 06:19 .

[leaguer of one]

MasterScribe wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

I hope Flemeth is NOT a god.

I prefer the agnostic nature of the series, in terms of it never really confirming if gods even exist.

It's a concept of perspective. A primative person can think a being of great power can be a god when in reality they are not. The elven gods and old gods can be something else that the primative of the past did not know and they just labled them gods. We alredy have a comfermation the Dumant exsisted.

But we cannot confirm that Dumat was actually a god.

That was my point. Dumat exsist, he was worship as a god but it's not clear if he was one. He could of not be one. The same with the elven gods. If flemith turns out to be an elven god we may find out that the elven gods may not really be gods.

[Taura-Tierno]

MasterScribe wrote...

I hope Flemeth is NOT a god.

I prefer the agnostic nature of the series, in terms of it never really confirming if gods even exist.

What is a "god", though? In my opinion, if something is more or less immortal (except for some specific flaw), exceedingly powerful and worshipped by  mortals, then it's a god. 

[Aolbain]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I actually thought she was the worst characters one ever and all her "deconstruction" was pretentious nonsense was clearly wrong, that was but that's off topic.

I hope Flemeth doesn't turn out like that or have such an insane plan in the end.

Kreia was, by her own admission, a dirty stinking liar. I don't think you are neceserely supposed to agree with her. Her main purpose as a character (based soly on guesswork and my belief that Chris Avalone can't sleep unless he crushed someone's faith) was to make you think. 

Modifié par Aolbain, 24 septembre 2013 - 09:47 .

[Angrywolves]

If Flemeth has precognition she can hardly be called an illusion .
Of course some players don't want Flemeth to be a God because they want to kill her.
They want her to be the big bad evil behind everything .
If she's not a God , she'll be easier to kill in their opinion .
shrugs.
Bioware wants us to have the ability to do whatever we want in DAI. So I believe by the end of the game players will be able to kill Flemeth, Dumat, or any other Gods, demons, people , etc they want to.
There will be consequences however, and I suspect killing
Flemeth may not provide a good ending for the game.
That's my suspicion anyway.

[azarhal]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

What is a "god", though? In my opinion, if something is more or less immortal (except for some specific flaw), exceedingly powerful and worshipped by  mortals, then it's a god. 

You just ditched 99% of all of Earth religions gods with your opinion (past and current religions). You might want to check was is a diety, because this is what  people are talking about here. Not the idea that Flemeth is the Supreme of the universe.

[Taura-Tierno]

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

What is a "god", though? In my opinion, if something is more or less immortal (except for some specific flaw), exceedingly powerful and worshipped by  mortals, then it's a god. 

You just ditched 99% of all of Earth religions gods with your opinion (past and current religions). You might want to check was is a diety, because this is what  people are talking about here. Not the idea that Flemeth is the Supreme of the universe.

Uh. I'm not ditching anything? How did I ditch anything by saying what I think passes for a god in typical fantasy setting?

One definition of "god" (merriam-webster): "a spirit or being that has great power, strength, knowledge, etc., and that can affect nature and the lives of people : one of various spirits or beings worshipped in some religions"

By that definition, the Old Gods, as far as we know, were gods. As were the elven pantheon deities. If Flemeth is one of them, she's a god. If you define a "god" as something different, that's fine. But that's how I'd define a "god".

[azarhal]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

What is a "god", though? In my opinion, if something is more or less immortal (except for some specific flaw), exceedingly powerful and worshipped by  mortals, then it's a god. 

You just ditched 99% of all of Earth religions gods with your opinion (past and current religions). You might want to check was is a diety, because this is what  people are talking about here. Not the idea that Flemeth is the Supreme of the universe.

Uh. I'm not ditching anything? How did I ditch anything by saying what I think passes for a god in typical fantasy setting?

One definition of "god" (merriam-webster): "a spirit or being that has great power, strength, knowledge, etc., and that can affect nature and the lives of people : one of various spirits or beings worshipped in some religions"

By that definition, the Old Gods, as far as we know, were gods. As were the elven pantheon deities. If Flemeth is one of them, she's a god. If you define a "god" as something different, that's fine. But that's how I'd define a "god".

Most gods are mortals, even in fantasy settings. By saying that they need to be immortal except for specific flaw is saying that the entire Norse and Greek pantheons was not made of gods or that the Forgotten Realms gods are not gods.

Merriam-webster definition is what I go with: it's worshipped, it means it's a god.

[Br3admax]

Immortal does not mean invulnerable. I thought that I would just throw that out there. Especially considering that the definition of immortal highlights ancient Greek gods as examples. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 24 septembre 2013 - 12:42 .

[Br3admax]

Angrywolves wrote...

If Flemeth has precognition she can hardly be called an illusion .
Of course some players don't want Flemeth to be a God because they want to kill her.
They want her to be the big bad evil behind everything .
If she's not a God , she'll be easier to kill in their opinion .
shrugs.
Bioware wants us to have the ability to do whatever we want in DAI. So I believe by the end of the game players will be able to kill Flemeth, Dumat, or any other Gods, demons, people , etc they want to.
There will be consequences however, and I suspect killing
Flemeth may not provide a good ending for the game.
That's my suspicion anyway.

Her being a god makes me want to kill her more, actually. 

[Taura-Tierno]

Br3ad wrote...

Immortal does not mean invulnerable. I thought that I would just throw that out there.

That's basically what I meant. Most gods are "immortal", but not in that they cannot possibly die. They don't die from old age, they're wickedly difficult to kill. Like Baldr or the mistletoe. Or only being killable by another god, or by some other special preparations. 

But I guess I may have been a bit too strict in my definition. Perhaps, something that is powerful enough to be worshipped, would be a "god". 

[azarhal]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Immortal does not mean invulnerable. I thought that I would just throw that out there.

That's basically what I meant. Most gods are "immortal", but not in that they cannot possibly die. They don't die from old age, they're wickedly difficult to kill. Like Baldr or the mistletoe. Or only being killable by another god, or by some other special preparations. 

But I guess I may have been a bit too strict in my definition. Perhaps, something that is powerful enough to be worshipped, would be a "god".

I thought you used Immortal as in "not mortal" (as per the ethymology of the word), not as in "cannot die of old age".

[Ziggeh]

You're using dictionary definitions of deities to describe a world in which demons are literal entities.

That's deeply problematic.

[legbamel]

To pull back from semantics, I find the idea that Flemeth could be OGB Mark 1 quite interesting, It would explain what seems to be her incomplete mastery of her powers (or the limitations thereof) as we'll as her ability to shapehift into a creature that was (temporarily) extinct.

As for Morrigan'ss warnings and her tone, she'd decided to defy a power she knew to be stronger. No matter what the original agenda, Morrigan has chosen a different path and one I'm by no means convinced is benign. Why wouldn't she be concerned that Flemeth might act against her?

[Googleness]

Flemeth is like Tom Bombadil in Tolkien's books. An unexplained force which is basically the auther trying to fix stuff.

[azarhal]

legbamel wrote...

her ability to shapehift into a creature that was (temporarily) extinct.

Dragons were never extinct, it just looked like they were because there was a lot less of them around, they all went to sleep. Their "comeback" is actually part of Flemeth's plan, she's responsible for sending them to sleep in the first place (well one of her daughters is). See The Silent Grove comic for more details.

[Reznore57]

Flemeth is saving dragons.
At least that's what she send her child army to do ,Morrigan rescued an OGB soul from death and corruption and Yavana is waking up old high dragons .
It also appear she's using humans , it's probably her who gave dragon blood to Calenhad , and generation later she caught up with Marric .

I'm pretty sure she will have something to do with Hawke/Warden going missing ...

[azarhal]

Reznore57 wrote...

It also appear she's using humans , it's probably her who gave dragon blood to Calenhad , and generation later she caught up with Marric .

The dragons were probably put under a seal similar to what was keeping Corypheus a sleep. It require the blood of the descendants to be refreshed or removed. It's quite possible that Flemeth meeting Maric and making a deal with him was luck (or fate) and not something she planned 300 years in advance.

There is also the story of Hafter, he left just like Calenhad and Marric did, but with his son. Going by Yavana's speech, they should call the dragons after every blight not just the one from 300 years ago and they wake them up slowly once the "hate" was reduced.

Although, it seems that something went wrong after the 4th blight. We had a long time without dragons and most of them died in their sleep. Maybe Flemeth was unable to get a debt from a Theirin in all that time, so she had nobody to send to wake them up until Marric came along her hut? Or maybe everyone she sent where killed in their travel toward the grove?

[Reznore57]

Oh I never noticed Hafter had almost the same story as Calenhad !
I wouldn't be surprised to know she gave blood to more people ...I mean it would have been stupid if The Theirin line died out.
She may not have spend all her time in Ferelden too , Yavana is in Antiva.^^.

And she's also known by the Dalish for unknown reasons , I guess she more or less had her finger in every pot.

[Br3admax]

Reznore57 wrote...

Oh I never noticed Hafter had almost the same story as Calenhad !
I wouldn't be surprised to know she gave blood to more people ...I mean it would have been stupid if The Theirin line died out.
She may not have spend all her time in Ferelden too , Yavana is in Antiva.^^.

And she's also known by the Dalish for unknown reasons , I guess she more or less had her finger in every pot.

Zevran says that Yavana left the Wilds and went to Antiva on her own.

[azarhal]

Reznore57 wrote...

Oh I never noticed Hafter had almost the same story as Calenhad !
I wouldn't be surprised to know she gave blood to more people ...I mean it would have been stupid if The Theirin line died out.
She may not have spend all her time in Ferelden too , Yavana is in Antiva.^^.

And she's also known by the Dalish for unknown reasons , I guess she more or less had her finger in every pot.

I only realized the Hafter things a few weeks ago while replaying DAO and reading his sword codex entry. I discover  new things everytime I play the games. Some stuff that seems unimportant jump in my face with a connection to another event I just read about (like Caged in Stone codex being interesting with all the dragon coming back talk, but sound like random gibberish otherwise).

As for the Dalish, some seems to know what she is (Flemeth ask Merrill if she know who she is beyond the title), In Uthenera is part of her "reconstruct" spell along with an altar to Mythal and Morrigan use an Eluvian to "prepare" for what is to come. There is a elvish-link and a dragon-link to Flemeth. Her plan include dragons, but it doesn't seem to include elves or maybe it does and we will realize this in DAI.

Also, we are strangely lacking a elves-dragons context in the lore (beside some statues/mask that might be real elvish statues or really just humans ones taken by the Dalish). No elven lore talks about dragons as far as I remember. Well, beside "Tevinter used dragons to destroy Arlathan". How did the elves behave toward dragons? What do they think of them? If dragons where such scourge, how did it affect them in various period of time? etc. Rather strange, especially with their link to Flemeth.

[Spectre slayer]

 Morrgian wasn't lying about Flemeth swapping bodies since Arliene? basically said she's been repeating the same cycle over and over every couple of centuries someone kills her she vanishes for a year or a couple of centuries then she reappears in a younger body then repeats it.


Along the way she get extremely involved in many important events like possibly introducing Calenhead to drinking dragon blood according to the Qunari then he vanishes at a later date, saved Marric and Logahain and then warned him of a possible blight and of logahain betraying him also making a promise to have one of his sons help her bring back the ancient dragons, saved Alistair for this reason, saved the warden to stop the blight one way or another, saved Hawke to return to the world, Sandal referenced her in his prophecy and Cassandra mentioned hee also she wasn't just there for more reasons than just finding the warden and Hawke.


Flemeth isn't a human, an abomination, a blood mage, a demon, Zazikale who was killed by Corin 1:95 divine in the battle of Starkhaven after 1,000 years of war, not one of the old gods since all 7 are males though she could be one of thier children, and its confirmed we will find out more or learn  what she is.


As for her goals that's something I'm not sure about though one of them is bringing back dragons I don't expect her to be the one who tore the veil but she probably has a connection to them and could be an antagonistic force in the game

[Angrywolves]

Never believed the swapping bodies claim.
Never read the books or comics so if there's real proof there then so be it.

[AmazingOlivia]

No proof in the comic. Just more cryptic statements from Flemeth's daughter.

[Rikketik]

My personal theory is that she is an Old God (reborn in pretty much the same way as the Archdemon in Morrigan's child--if you allow the ritual that is) and ultimately wants to return to the time when the Old Gods ruled the world. Of course, this takes a lot of time and a lot of chessmastering. The help of her fellow Old Gods would certainly make things easier, hence the existence of the ritual.

I wouldn't be surprised if Morrigan is some sort of thrall of hers--she is her own person, she is just unable to go against the fate her "mother" determined for her: bearing the child that will host the soul of an Archdemon/Old God. Otherwise I have no idea why Morrigan even went through with it, unless she has been lying her rear end of the entire game.