191 réponses à ce sujet

[SiniisteR]

 Hes obviously one of the him ast disliked enemies and characters in ME3, the main reasons seem to be because of his chicken tactics in combat yet being an obnoxious cocky SOB. This is just to see what you guys think would make him a hateable but also respectable villain.

I would instead of having him some space ninja with a sword, make him a juggernaut, wearing armor similar to what Shepards clone uses, as well as being outfitted withna large array of weaponry. I would also give some context  of him being subjected to Cerberus experiments involving Krogan genetics, giving him their healing factor as well as their redundant nervous system. This way he seems less of a weak enemy relying on his shields and more of someone actually able to withstand a battle with Shepard and his squad. I would also remove his gunship from the Thessia battle and replace it with him using fortification and pulling out a Geth Spitfire while he heals up. This style of combat could probably make his cutscene powers appear more subtle, since he would seem more believable to be able to actually beat Shepard.

This would also improve his first appearance on the Citadel, where everyone would get the first impression that hes just some muscle bound Cerberus operative sent to kill the Salarian Councilor, including Thane who loses his fistfight with Kai Leng because he underestimated him.

Modifié par SiniisteR, 25 septembre 2013 - 12:48 .

[David7204]

Kai Leng uses a sword because a sword is intimidating. It's an unknown. It's scary, because we know that the only way somebody would be carrying a sword is if they knew how to use it very well.

Shepard has killed hundreds of mooks with guns. I really don't see any way another human with a gun could be intimidating.

You basically want to turn him into Duke Nukem. No.

Modifié par David7204, 25 septembre 2013 - 12:48 .

[Bleachrude]

As David points out, you ALREADY have beaten multiple mooks with guns and your design of Kai is just a mook with more guns...

The easiest way to make Kai is to simply write a better combat adversary. For example, the fight with the clone works better since for most people, on insanity you die at least once

(yeah, yeah...there are people that can solo the clone fight on insanity without medigels but going by BSN, most people had to reload at least once on their preferred difficulty)

Kai Leng is more of the balancing problem of ME3 than kai Leng per se...

[xAmilli0n]

Kai Leng needed to be a bit less...cheesy? I just think his dialogue doesn't do him justice.

[SiniisteR]

Kai Leng uses a sword because a sword is intimidating. It's an unknown. It's scary, because we know that the only way somebody would be carrying a sword is if they knew how to use it very well.

More intimidating than someone with a gun that knows how to use it very well?

Shepard has killed hundreds of mooks with guns. I really don't see any way another human with a gun could be intimidating.

A human with Krogan like healing abilities, N7 military training and LOTS of guns can be intimidating. Even so, Kai Leng isnt meant to be intimidating, hes meant to be challenging. A guy with a sword and lots of shields isnt challenging.

Modifié par SiniisteR, 25 septembre 2013 - 01:08 .

[KaiserShep]

He should have been an actual character that had some sort of ideal, rather than being the Illusive Man's arm, saying nothing but mildly ominous comments before running off or attacking.

[David7204]

If you've killed hundreds of people with guns, including people that know how to use them very well (which Shepard has) and are using armor specifically designed to protect against guns (which Shepard is), then yes, absolutely.

[DirtySHISN0]

No kai leng.


Somebody was bound to say it.

[David7204]

Kai Leng is necessary as a 'face' for Cerberus.

If Shepard runs into Cerberus and beats them soundly every time, they're not an effective antagonist. They just look weak. An antagonist needs to provide a challenge. That's Leng's role.

[Astartes Marine]

David7204 wrote...
Kai Leng uses a sword because a sword is intimidating.

In a game series that has the M-920 Cain...no a sword with no special attributes or abilities in ME is not intimidating, not nearly as much as you think it is.

A chainsword...now THAT's an intimidating weapon.  The sound it makes and it's very appearance speak to the volumes of brutal slaughter it can inflict, the bloody carnage that you face when dealing with one.

A basic metal sword is just that, and with so many guns to choose from with the likes of the Revenant machinegun, Claymore heavy shotgun, Widow anti-material rifle, a basic metal sword just doesn't measure up.

David7204 wrote...
It's an unknown.

...it's a sword?  Not much that's unknown about a blade and a hilt. 

David7204 wrote...
It's scary, because we know that the only
way somebody would be carrying a sword is if they knew how to use it
very well.

Or the man was an idiot...which Kai Leng turned out to be.  He doesn't even have the Phantom sync-kill ability, if he did THEN perhaps he'd have been slightly more intimidating, if only for the threat of instant death.

David7204 wrote...
Shepard has killed hundreds of mooks with guns. I really don't see any way another human with a gun could be intimidating.

Good writing would be a good start.  The weapon alone does not make the character.  A well written character can be intimidating without even picking up a weapon.

Step two would be to have better AI.  Use abilities like cloak and flash grenades and biotic charge, just running headfirst at the player who's "killed hundreds of mooks with guns" is just guaranteeing the failure of your above-average mook.
There have been fights where the opponent uses the abilities they have, Tela Vasir and the Clone were EXCELLENT in this regard, they were difficult to defeat and you had to work for the win in a mostly fair battle.

David7204 wrote...
They just look weak. An antagonist needs to provide a challenge. That's Leng's role.

They've been weak since the first game when Shep just runs into their random experiments and guns down entire platoons.
And Leng failed to provide a challenge even on Insanity.

Modifié par Astartes Marine, 25 septembre 2013 - 01:06 .

[DirtySHISN0]

David7204 wrote...

Kai Leng is necessary as a 'face' for Cerberus.

If Shepard runs into Cerberus and beats them soundly every time, they're not an effective antagonist. They just look weak. An antagonist needs to provide a challenge. That's Leng's role.

I cant find the post, but some point last year (april i think) i posted in my opinion on Kai leng - which is;

He's a transparent plot device that returns animosity towards cerberus. After spending an entire game working for them, the players opinion of cerberus is undoubtedly softened.

Its just a shame he is so transparent, in his current state he isnt really worth the screen time.

edit; Found it.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 25 septembre 2013 - 01:15 .

[Hainkpe]

Com'on! He's a Cereal Killer.

'Nuff said.

No redemption for this character. D.O.A.

[David7204]

That is simply just nonsense. The player fights Cerberus many times before ever meeting Leng. If his purpose was to make the player hate Cerberus, he would have been introduced far earlier.

Modifié par David7204, 25 septembre 2013 - 01:19 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Kai Leng is necessary as a 'face' for Cerberus.

If Shepard runs into Cerberus and beats them soundly every time, they're not an effective antagonist. They just look weak. An antagonist needs to provide a challenge. That's Leng's role.

NO  no no no no

A thousand times NO

Cerberus has a face, and it has very recognizable eyes.  An "anti-Shepard" is not necessary.  Cerberus is not scary because they are physically strong or intimidating.

They are scary because they are always two steps ahead of Shepard.

[David7204]

The Illusive Man doesn't fight. So no, he doesn't work.

[radishson]

David7204 wrote...

Kai Leng is necessary as a 'face' for Cerberus.

If Shepard runs into Cerberus and beats them soundly every time, they're not an effective antagonist. They just look weak. An antagonist needs to provide a challenge. That's Leng's role.

+1

I can understand the meta reasoning beind Leng, and his use of a sword has never bothered me.  I think his character design (aside from the elements bordering on racism) was well-done.

The problem is that the Leng Bioware imaginined never made it on-screen.  There was no explanation given for his appearance as Cerberus assassin and no worthwhile buildup of tension or intrigue surrounding him.  He was a gimmick, composed entirely of badly-delivered one-liners and a false sense of suspense.

There's no one change Bioware could've made to improve Leng.  His entire character arc needed to be rewritten and implemented differently.  It's a shame that a character of his necessity was flawed so fundamentally.

Modifié par radishson, 25 septembre 2013 - 01:28 .

[DirtySHISN0]

David7204 wrote...

That is simply just nonsense. The player fights Cerberus many times before ever meeting Leng. If his purpose was to make the player hate Cerberus, he would have been introduced far earlier.

Search your feelings david, you know it is true.

What reason do people new to ME3 have to hate cerberus?

[AresKeith]

Kai Leng should've been more competent and tactical. And he should've had his own squad to mirror Shepard's

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

The Illusive Man doesn't fight. So no, he doesn't work.

Once again, Cerberus doesn't need an anti-Shepard to be their "face".  We already know how capable and dangerous they are. 

The "personal" enemy that Shepard should have should be reserved for the main enemies, the Reapers, not Cerberus.  It puts too much of a focus on them, when the enemy should be the Reapers, with Cerberus as a side show, (since they HAD to be an enemy <_<)

[radishson]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The Illusive Man doesn't fight. So no, he doesn't work.

Once again, Cerberus doesn't need an anti-Shepard to be their "face".  We already know how capable and dangerous they are. 

The "personal" enemy that Shepard should have should be reserved for the main enemies, the Reapers, not Cerberus.  It puts too much of a focus on them, when the enemy should be the Reapers, with Cerberus as a side show, (since they HAD to be an enemy <_<)

Agreed, but wouldn't you say Leng was a fair concession in a narrative that forced Cerberus into a role of high military action?  The ideal would've been a non-militant Cerberus, but Bioware chose giving us more mooks over coherent storytelling.  Leng was, in theory, supposed to be a compromise IMO.

[GreyLycanTrope]

I would've made him less of a man child, more like his Retribution incarnation.

[Steelcan]

radishson wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The Illusive Man doesn't fight. So no, he doesn't work.

Once again, Cerberus doesn't need an anti-Shepard to be their "face".  We already know how capable and dangerous they are. 

The "personal" enemy that Shepard should have should be reserved for the main enemies, the Reapers, not Cerberus.  It puts too much of a focus on them, when the enemy should be the Reapers, with Cerberus as a side show, (since they HAD to be an enemy <_<)

Agreed, but wouldn't you say Leng was a fair concession in a narrative that forced Cerberus into a role of high military action?  The ideal would've been a non-militant Cerberus, but Bioware chose giving us more mooks over coherent storytelling.  Leng was, in theory, supposed to be a compromise IMO.

No.  Leng was completely unneccesary.  Cerberus already had a face, that many people were fine with opposing, and had a goal "fight the Reapers no matter the cost".  Emphasis on "NO MATTER THE COST".

Having a personal adversary to Shepard in the form of Leng just makes them even more of a focus than they should be. 

Modifié par Steelcan, 25 septembre 2013 - 01:33 .

[Arkman279]

Kai leng wasnt just a guy with a sword he also had phase disruptor ( which is basically making up the role of a gun ) that does a lot of damage. He also has biotic slash, can turn invisible and will kill without mercy or a second thought. Also it should be noted that his role was more that of an assassin. And thats what made him so scary or intimidating he was the kind of guy that you would never see coming he could be anywhere. A frontline solider with devastating field combat abilities was never his purpose. He had to use clever tactics to beat sheperd.

[The Night Mammoth]

Kai Leng's sword was supposed to be intimidating? How? Why was it more intimidating than each respective character's biotics, or Shepard's omni-blade? In what way did it contribute to him being a more intimidating character to fight than, say, any character in ME2? He looks ridiculous using it in a sci-fi setting where people can have the biological ability to effectively throw fire and control gravity. When I saw him with his sword, all I thought was how stupid it looked and when I was gonna get the chance to kill the idiot holding it. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 25 septembre 2013 - 01:57 .

[Br3admax]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Kai Leng's sword was supposed to be intimidating? How? Why was it more intimidating than each respective character's biotics, or Shepard's omni-blade? In what way did it contribute to him being a more intimidating character to fight than, say, any character in ME2? He looks ridiculous using it in a sci-fi setting where people can have the biological ability to effectively throw fire and control gravity. When I saw him with his sword, all I thought was how stupid it looked and when I was gonna get the chance to kill the idiot holding it. 

Yeah, I see what you mean. In a world where people can literally snap the sword into pieces, it's not reall that intimidating? Only hilarious.