191 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

Hanar, do you have anything to actually say to me? Because this is really very tedious. If I was interested in someone making such petty arguments, I would go elsewhere.

[Hey]

no

[David7204]

Yes, and I stand by that. If someone is invested in the story and is interested in the Reapers, they' aren't going to suddenly drop everything, forget about the Reapers and accept they're incomprehensible because the Reapers say they're incomprehensible. The entire idea is absurd. And that doesn't even touch upon the pile of foreshadowing aside from dialogue from the Reapers itself.

You don't have to worry about me calling anyone stupid, because I seriously doubt any such people actually exist. Someguy is simply making up nonsense to prove his fallicious point.

Modifié par David7204, 25 septembre 2013 - 05:48 .

[someguy1231]

David7204 wrote...

Complete and absolute garbage. The Reapers say they're unknown and incomprehensible, and that suddenly makes it so? Suddenly the player stops caring and accepts it? Utterly ridiculous. You couldn't be more wrong. The truth is that the complete opposite happens. The player is more interested in the motivations and purpose of the Reapers for their dialogue.

I would have thought it beyond obvious that the point of the mystery surrounding the Reapers was to entice the player. I guess I was wrong.

The Reapers were portrayed as awesomely powerful, unstoppable, unknownable abominations. The player had never seen anything like them, and could certainly believe what they were saying. Finding out that they were lying about being incomprehensible just cheapens them and defangs them. I certainly didn't expect that that line would later turn out to be a complete lie, and that's part of why I'm one of the biggest advocates of leaving them unexplained.

In a way, David, you're actually right. The mystery about the Reapers was what made them enticing to me. But it wasn't anticipation for the answers to the mystery, it was the mystery itself. I didn't care to learn the answers behind it, because I knew any explanation would inevitably be disappointing and anti-climactic. And boy, was that ever true.

We've had this debate before, David. I've listed severals examples in other franchises of major villains or plot devices that are kept mysterious, and the fans are just fine with it. Yet you always insist ME fans would never accept this, despite example after example in other media, as well as several polls right here on BSN which suggest otherwise.

Let me leave you with these two quotes from people who know far more about storytelling than you:

"Nightmares exist outside of logic, and there's little fun to be had in explanations; they're antithetical to the poetry of fear." - Stephen King

"The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown." - H.P. Lovecraft

[David7204]

You're making one argument and trying to pretend it's another, Hanar. And it's not working. The issue at hand is whether a player interested in the Reapers is suddenly going to smile and shrug their shoulders because the Reapers say "We're incomprehensible." And the answer that issue is an absolute "No."

The issue you're pretending this is about, whether a player would want the Reapers unexplained or not, is another thing entirely.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

Someguy is simply making up nonsense to prove his fallicious point.

Oh the irony

[David7204]

You're also taking two different things and pretending they're the same, Someguy. Not wanting to know the answer to a mystery because you think the answer will disappoint you and not wanting to know the answer because you suddenly stop caring and smile and nod in blissful ignoreance as soon as the Reapers say "We're incomprehensible" are two completely and utterly different things.

Modifié par David7204, 25 septembre 2013 - 05:56 .

[Dieb]

How to fix Leng? Remove all his dialogue. If he never spoke and only used the holographic device to let TIM send him a message on Thessia, he'd be a lot more intimidating.

Also David's sword argument is still very fitting, IMO. The technological relevance debate is futile, since we're talking drama here. Imagine: In a present day setting action movie, the hero faces a group of bad guys, 5 of them with guns and one with just a sword. Who will be considered the biggest threat? I'm quite sure no one's first thoughts would be "Haha, that guy is such an unskilled combatant, he doesn't even know guns are superior!"

[David7204]

Utterly irrelevant. It makes no difference whether the hypothetical Reaper motive was incomprehensible or not. What matters if it was set up to be incomprehensible. And it very clearly wasn't.

[Han Shot First]

The main problems with Kai Leng as I see it, besides his lame ninja-esque character model, were that he didn't have much dialogue and what he did have was badly written. Also the boss fights were not executed well and were a little underwhelming.

The biggest tragedy of that character is that he had one of the best voice actors in the business. Bioware wasted his talent however.

[David7204]

The conversation with Vigil would not exist if there wasn't a clear intention to eventually explain the Reapers.The Reapers would not be given such mysterious yet very clearly purposeful actions if there was no intention to explain them.

Modifié par David7204, 25 septembre 2013 - 06:10 .

[David7204]

That's the whole point. The conversation allows and encourages Shepard and the player to ask such questions, but gives no answers. Both Shepard and Vigil speculate for the player, but give no answers.

Modifié par David7204, 25 septembre 2013 - 06:12 .

[Ravensword]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Not really. You do not even get a hint at the Reapers origins until near the end of Mass Effect 2. There is nothing in Mass Effect 1 that would suggest that the Reapers origins would be explained. Or even how many there were out there. All you knew was that the Reapers were coming and that they were easily the largest threat the galaxy has ever faced.

And that's why ME2 is clearly superior to ME1.

[someguy1231]

David7204 wrote...

You're also taking two different things and pretending they're the same, Someguy. Not wanting to know the answer to a mystery because you think the answer will disappoint you and not wanting to know the answer because you suddenly stop caring and smile and nod in blissful ignoreance as soon as the Reapers say "We're incomprehensible" are two completely and utterly different things.

I never "stopped" caring - I never cared in the first place. After the conversation with Sovereign in ME1, my only concern was stopping the Reapers. I didn't care where they came from, how they came to be, why they do what they do, etc. I never gave any of that a second thought, both because I thought it was irrelevant from an in-story point of view, and I thought that Bioware could never provide a satisfying answer from an out-of-story point of view.

As for accepting the Reaper's claims that they're incomprehensible, Sovereign had no reason to lie about his kind. We could easily tell they were incredibly powerful and nigh-unstoppable. It'd make no difference in the Reaper's capabilities if he were to reveal then and there that they were created by the Leviathans and are controlled by an AI with flawed programming. However, it certainly would've made him, and the Reapers as a whole, far less scary to me.

[David7204]

Absolutely not. We're back to the point you claimed earlier you supposedly weren't making. Players who cared in the first place do not just give up, nod and smile, and shrug their shoulders in blissful ignorance when the answers to such questions aren't given right away. The idea is silly, and more importantly, completely wrong.

Modifié par David7204, 25 septembre 2013 - 06:20 .

[KaiserShep]

In the end, what does it matter? Your survival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them.

[someguy1231]

David7204 wrote...

That's the whole point. The conversation allows and encourages Shepard and the player to ask such questions, but gives no answers. Both Shepard and Vigil speculate for the player, but give no answers.

And that's exactly how they should've left it in ME3!

You know, for a game that Bioware wanted to cause "Lots of speculation from everyone!", they ruined what was by far the best source of speculation.