279 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

I don't get this odd fascination with killing off a character (or otherwise ruining their life) to conclude their story. I can't be the only person who knows that a conclusion can be reached WITHOUT that happening, yes?

Modifié par o Ventus, 25 septembre 2013 - 06:40 .

[Iakus]

o Ventus wrote...

I don't get this odd fascination with killing off a character (or otherwise ruining their life) to conclude their story. I can't be the only person who knows that a conclusion can be reached WITHOUT that happening, yes?

I think what people really mean is "A happy ending for other people would have ruiined Mass Effect 3 for me"

[Liamv2]

The ending being sad is not the problem with the ending.

[Azaron Nightblade]

Killdren88 wrote...

With that sort of thinking then LOTR should not have had a happy ending. Considering how dire things got near the end of ROTK it should have ended on a much sadder note. That small Diversion army should have been wiped out, Frodo destroys the ring but either at the cost of his, Sam's or both their lives and the End would have wrapped with anyone who survived that terrible war recovering.
Sure Jackson left out the razing of the Shire, and changed it to the lush green Shire we know of. And you know what? It got a very good response from the majority of viewers. Sure I knew of some people, including myself who criticized the change at the end but understood that people wouldn't want more sadness and dark settings at the end.

Agreed, just because a story is of a darker nature it doesn't mean it always has to end even darker.
Take Diablo III for example, there is death and suffering throughout the game - soldiers dying left and right on the battlefield with you while the people in the keep huddle together in fear and cold.
Leah who's been with you since the start of the game suffers a horrible fate at the hands of her own mother, after already losing her uncle earlier on.
Demons are ravaging the High Heavens themselves, and despite all of that the hero presses on and eventually wins the day.
I found the end game cinematic with Tyrael taking up the mantle of Wisdom to be far more touching than ME3's ending.

An even better example is probably Starcraft II (Wings of Liberty), where you also struggle against an overwhelmingly powerful enemy and where the costs are high.
Imagine Sarah dying instead of the ending where Jim Raynor tenderly carries her off in his arms, all because a dark story needs an even more grim ending.

Modifié par Azaron Nightblade, 25 septembre 2013 - 07:01 .

[Cyberstrike nTo]

KaiserShep wrote...

Again, a happy ending does not preclude dealing with the losses suffered. Let's use the Lord of the Rings as an example. Lots of innocent people die during the battle for Middle Earth, yet the ending is happy. The people who died did not come back, yet the ending was happy anyway. A happy ending does not deal with suddenly glossing over the fact that lives were lost, but rather emphasises upon the defeat of those who were taking those lives to begin with.

I wouldn't call the ending of Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King  happy, to me it's a slightly more upbeat bittersweet ending with Frodo, Bilbo, Gandlaf and the elves leaving saying goodbye to Sam and the other Hobbits. Then Frodo telling Sam to live his own life and take care of his family, which Sam does (and probably will do) but it's still hard for him to say goodbye to his best friend. 

But that is just my opinion.  

Modifié par Cyberstrike nTo, 25 septembre 2013 - 07:50 .

[KaiserShep]

It's sad, but still a happy ending. The characters we care about go on to lead good lives. Hell, even Frodo and Gandalf go on to some kind of heaven.

[Headcount]

How did wishing for a happy ending became wanting nothing but rainbows and unicorns. Many players just wanted their Shepard to survive at the end. Probably just as many would have been happy to see him or her go out like a boss, but instead we got....

"Yes, Shepard. Pick destroy and your machine friends and allies will die but don't worry about us screwing you over if you select control or synthesis." *wink-wink* "Now, no more questions on why you should even trust us in the first place. Go and limp along like a 90 year old man and choose."

[ScriptBabe]

I adored all three games until the final 15 minutes of game 3 which set me on a long analysis of good story telling, what works and what doesn't, and the resistance to the so called "happy ending". I ended up writing a guest blog for A Dribble Ink about the power of myth and happy endings, and I've written extensively about it on my blog. I've also been using it in lectures to writing classes. If the happy ending is unearned then yes, it is a cheat, but there had been so much loss -- galaxy wide and personally for Shepard that I felt like that character had earned the chance to come through alive -- damaged physically, emotionally and mentally, but able to find peace. Being offered that choice seemed equally as valid to me as death or control or synthesis.

There is this tendency to think dark means important or real, and I disagree. There is a lovely quote that I think sums it up well. "The world is not respectable; it is mortal, tormented, confused, deluded forever; but it is shot through with beauty, with love, with glints of courage and laughter; and in these, the spirit blooms timidly, and struggles to light amid the thorns."
George Santayana

Modifié par ScriptBabe, 25 septembre 2013 - 09:54 .

[Reorte]

ScriptBabe wrote...

I adored all three games until the final 15 minutes of game 3 which set me on a long analysis of good story telling, what works and what works and what doesn't, and the resistance to the so called "happy ending". I ended up writing a guest blog for A Dribble Ink about the power of myth and happy endings, and I've written extensively about it on my blog. I've also been using it in lectures to writing classes. If the happy ending is unearned then yes, it is a cheat, but there had been so much loss -- galaxy wide and personally for Shepard that I felt like that character had earned the chance to come through alive -- damaged physically, emotionally and mentally, but able to find peace. Being offered that choice seemed equally as valid to me as death or control or synthesis.

Very importantly not knowing what the result will be, whether he'll survive or not, whether he'll even win or doom everyone or not, adds a lot to the drama and tension. Since a game can have multiple possible outcomes it'll be far less certain than in a book or film, further increasing the drama and helping to show the real potential of a game as a storytelling medium. When that happens it even has the ability to keep up a level of drama through replays (assuming you don't metagame or follow exactly the same path) that no other ficitonal medium can possibly do.

[ScriptBabe]

I suppose I should link to the essay I wrote for A Dribble of Ink about the power of myth and happy endings. You can find it here. http://aidanmoher.co...inda-snodgrass/

[Azaron Nightblade]

ScriptBabe wrote...

I suppose I should link to the essay I wrote for A Dribble of Ink about the power of myth and happy endings. You can find it here. http://aidanmoher.co...inda-snodgrass/

Thanks, I'll have to read that one. 
I went digging for it earlier but came across another one.

And then there’s theme versus plot.  Theme is the bigger issue upon which you are reflecting.  It never gets stated in so many words during the course of the story, but when you finish you go — “Ah that was a meditation on loyalty, or unity through diversity, or the perils of doing good, etc. etc.”And endings.  You by god better “stick the landing”, and made the climax worthy of the journey or people will not love you, and they probably won’t buy your next book, or watch your next movie, or play your next game.

I found the endings part to be very fitting, considering this topic and the many others that still pop up daily over ME3's ending.

Reorte wrote...

ScriptBabe wrote...

I adored all three games until the final 15 minutes of game 3 which set me on a long analysis of good story telling, what works and what works and what doesn't, and the resistance to the so called "happy ending". I ended up writing a guest blog for A Dribble Ink about the power of myth and happy endings, and I've written extensively about it on my blog. I've also been using it in lectures to writing classes. If the happy ending is unearned then yes, it is a cheat, but there had been so much loss -- galaxy wide and personally for Shepard that I felt like that character had earned the chance to come through alive -- damaged physically, emotionally and mentally, but able to find peace. Being offered that choice seemed equally as valid to me as death or control or synthesis. 

Very importantly not knowing what the result will be, whether he'll survive or not, whether he'll even win or doom everyone or not, adds a lot to the drama and tension. Since a game can have multiple possible outcomes it'll be far less certain than in a book or film, further increasing the drama and helping to show the real potential of a game as a storytelling medium. When that happens it even has the ability to keep up a level of drama through replays (assuming you don't metagame or follow exactly the same path) that no other ficitonal medium can possibly do. 

I couldn't agree more.
ME3 is the first game in a long history of gaming where I've actually just watched the other endings on Youtube to see if another playthrough would even be worth it, while on DAO I've avoided spoilers at any cost so that I could see the different endings with different playthroughs.

Modifié par Azaron Nightblade, 25 septembre 2013 - 10:09 .

[KaiserShep]

ScriptBabe wrote...

I adored all three games until the final 15 minutes of game 3 which set me on a long analysis of good story telling, what works and what doesn't, and the resistance to the so called "happy ending". I ended up writing a guest blog for A Dribble Ink about the power of myth and happy endings, and I've written extensively about it on my blog. I've also been using it in lectures to writing classes. If the happy ending is unearned then yes, it is a cheat, but there had been so much loss -- galaxy wide and personally for Shepard that I felt like that character had earned the chance to come through alive -- damaged physically, emotionally and mentally, but able to find peace. Being offered that choice seemed equally as valid to me as death or control or synthesis.

There is this tendency to think dark means important or real, and I disagree. There is a lovely quote that I think sums it up well. "The world is not respectable; it is mortal, tormented, confused, deluded forever; but it is shot through with beauty, with love, with glints of courage and laughter; and in these, the spirit blooms timidly, and struggles to light amid the thorns."
George Santayana

This I agree with. Taking note of that blog as well.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 25 septembre 2013 - 10:08 .

[ScriptBabe]

Oh, yeah, I did write that stuff about theme and plot and endings, didn't I, Arazon. I had forgotten. I'm playing KOTOR right now and seeing the seeds of what would come to brilliant fruition in Dragon Age: Origins and in much of Mass Effect. It's been interesting to see the development of how classic and amazing BioWare became that company. I hope it finds it footing again.

[Azaron Nightblade]

ScriptBabe wrote...

Oh, yeah, I did write that stuff about theme and plot and endings, didn't I, Arazon. I had forgotten. I'm playing KOTOR right now and seeing the seeds of what would come to brilliant fruition in Dragon Age: Origins and in much of Mass Effect. It's been interesting to see the development of how classic and amazing BioWare became that company. I hope it finds it footing again.

Dragon Age: Inquisition is looking very promising to me so far from the info that they've released so far - so I'm putting my hopes on that one recapturing that old Bioware magic.
In the mean time I'm going through the masterpiece that is Dragon Age Origins again.
Not to sure about the next Mass Effect game though, if it even sees the light of day and doesn't get cancelled.

[Mathias]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

angol fear wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

how educated is some one who likes something as flawed as me3's endings?

I liked the original ending and as literature teacher, cinema critic and writer, I think I've got education.

There are boneheaded doctors, politicians, professors, scientists, etc etc. Even though that had to get an education to receive their title, that doesn't mean they got a "good" one. Just saying.

So liking something you do not, makes me a bad doctor. You make a compelling argument, mister. 

I think you just interpeted it wrong.

[ScriptBabe]

I've been yearning for Dragon Age myself. I got a young friend in L.A. to play it, I even hung out and watched him play and offered advice. He finished it and sent me this OTT email about how it was _The Best Game Ever!_ I was delighted. I'm going to wait on Inquisition until the fans weigh in. I have far more faith in you guys reviews then in the "legitimate" reviews. And yes, Mass Effect, *sigh* Mass Effect. Some of this is a deep affinity for my Shepard and the companions that I came to love, but I'm also very worried that they never really understood what made the games great (that theme thing again) and so it will be a pale imitation.

[Mathias]

 This isn't the first time I've heard an ending lover say "Oh a happy ending would've ruined the game!"

I guarantee you that if Bioware had a time machine and went back in time, they would've attempted a different and more uplifting ending than what we got. That ending will always follow this game around like a black hawk, and the staff at Bioware are always gonna have to put up with it. If they had the opportunity to change the course of history where ME3 released to numerous praise and didn't have a PR nightmare on their hands, they'd do it. Maybe not now since it's been over a year and they've moved on, but if this was early 2012 they'd be hoping in the DeLorean to meet their past selves and slap em in the face.

[Azaron Nightblade]

ScriptBabe wrote...

I've been yearning for Dragon Age myself. I got a young friend in L.A. to play it, I even hung out and watched him play and offered advice. He finished it and sent me this OTT email about how it was _The Best Game Ever!_ I was delighted. I'm going to wait on Inquisition until the fans weigh in. I have far more faith in you guys reviews then in the "legitimate" reviews. And yes, Mass Effect, *sigh* Mass Effect. Some of this is a deep affinity for my Shepard and the companions that I came to love, but I'm also very worried that they never really understood what made the games great (that theme thing again) and so it will be a pale imitation.

That friend has good taste!
I'll stick with my old Bioware/Blizzard tradition of pre-ordering it, but if it turns into another disappointment after all... lets just say that one of those B's will go on the bargain bin/Steam/Origins Sales list for future games.

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

 This isn't the first time I've heard an ending lover say "Oh a happy ending would've ruined the game!"

I guarantee you that if Bioware had a time machine and went back in time, they would've attempted a different and more uplifting ending than what we got. That ending will always follow this game around like a black hawk, and the staff at Bioware are always gonna have to put up with it. If they had the opportunity to change the course of history where ME3 released to numerous praise and didn't have a PR nightmare on their hands, they'd do it. Maybe not now since it's been over a year and they've moved on, but if this was early 2012 they'd be hoping in the DeLorean to meet their past selves and slap em in the face.

Oh, most definitely.
Despite the whole "You forum people are just a minority, everyone else loves our ending so hush" PR spin, I have no doubt that they are very aware of the real situation.
When even now many articles use the words "Despite the controversy of ME3's ending" or talk about the mixed receptions of the game it pretty much confirms it's not just the BSN being drama queens.
And I'm sure a lot of people here have friends that never post here but have expressed their dislike of the ending as well.
Alas, it's too late for that - and without a time machine there is no way of doing it without losing face.
We can only hope it's a lesson learned for the future games.

Modifié par Azaron Nightblade, 25 septembre 2013 - 11:07 .

[ScriptBabe]

I think they would absolutely use that Way Back Machine if they could. There was a telling interview where someone said rather wistfully that they "hadn't realized how much the players would identify with their Shepard's." The statement floored me, and led to another blog post. It's what we writers dream for -- that level of involvement on the part of readers or viewers, and gaming is so suited for this. The fact the writers weren't aware of it made me all the more certain that the companies need to be hiring professional writers to work along side the designers.

And ME3 was the most returned game in history. Which sort of indicates that we weren't just a vocal minority. I'm keeping all 3 of mine because I am a completist, and so much of the trilogy was brilliant, but I can understand the disappointment.

[Deverz]

ScriptBabe wrote...

And yes, Mass Effect, *sigh* Mass Effect. Some of this is a deep affinity for my Shepard and the companions that I came to love, but I'm also very worried that they never really understood what made the games great (that theme thing again) and so it will be a pale imitation.

If the Extended Cut and Citadel DLC is any indication for owning up for past mistakes, I'm inclined to believe they know exactly what they did wrong.

The people at Bioware are not stupid. A day doesn't go by on this forum without someone voicing their displeasure at the ending, or someone pestering them personally on Twitter. Trust me, they know. They have to know.

Now, if the next ME game is going to be worthwhile or not remains to be seen. They're gonna have to do something really special to bring back all the disappointed fans, though. And while DAI looks like it's directly addressing fan feedback, it will certainly be an interesting day when they formally announce Mass Effect 4.

Modifié par Deverz, 25 septembre 2013 - 11:15 .

[ruggly]

There can easily be bitter sweet endings, with an emphasis on the sweet for some or emphasis on the bitter for others. Self-sacrificing heroes are becoming as cliche as 'happy endings.' You don't have to end a character's story with their death, there are multiple ways to end a story.

[ScriptBabe]

They are not stupid. They are amazingly creative, and I was a BioWare Girl. Dragon Age 2 shook my faith because it was clearly rushed and the story was very weak and structured badly. There is a big review on my blog. Then I hit ME3 and I began to worry the company had really lost it's way. I'm reserving judgment on all the upcoming games until I hear feedback from the fans. As for ME4 -- I just think it's going to be very hard to get people to come back to the Mass Effect universe if it's all new characters and a different time especially since folks are going to be inclined to be suspicious.

[ScriptBabe]

ruggly wrote...

There can easily be bitter sweet endings, with an emphasis on the sweet for some or emphasis on the bitter for others. Self-sacrificing heroes are becoming as cliche as 'happy endings.' You don't have to end a character's story with their death, there are multiple ways to end a story.

Well put.  Anything we do has been done before.  It's all in the execution.  Among the writers I hang with we have this mantra.  Sounds silly, but it's a good reminder before you sit down to compose.  "Make sure it doesn't suck."  

[AlanC9]

ruggly wrote...

There can easily be bitter sweet endings, with an emphasis on the sweet for some or emphasis on the bitter for others. Self-sacrificing heroes are becoming as cliche as 'happy endings.' You don't have to end a character's story with their death, there are multiple ways to end a story.

Not sure what the italed has to do with ME3. If you don't  get that Shepard lived through high-EMS Destroy, that's a fault of the presentation, sure, but the intent is blindingly obvious.

The first sentence is more interesting. I don't like the idea that all tragedies in RPGs have to be avoidable by the player, but I'm not sure how far you're going with that.

[ruggly]

AlanC9 wrote...

ruggly wrote...

There can easily be bitter sweet endings, with an emphasis on the sweet for some or emphasis on the bitter for others. Self-sacrificing heroes are becoming as cliche as 'happy endings.' You don't have to end a character's story with their death, there are multiple ways to end a story.

Not sure what the italed has to do with ME3. If you don't  get that Shepard lived through high-EMS Destroy, that's a fault of the presentation, sure, but the intent is blindingly obvious.

The first sentence is more interesting. I don't like the idea that all tragedies in RPGs have to be avoidable by the player, but I'm not sure how far you're going with that.

Well, when I first finished ME3 I all I thought the options were to:
1. sacrifice myself and things happen
2. sacrifice myself and other things happen
3. sacrifice myself and some...things happen again

I didn't know Shepard had a chance to survive in high EMS destroy, which I did get the clip, but the game sure leads you to believe from Priority: Earth that Shepard is going to die with the way your squadmates treat you (or even before that, with the dreams).  Which is not to say that sacrificing the hero can't be an option, but I didn't like the feeling of being railroaded into it.

For the first sentence, I don't mind bittersweet endings, but it's kind of like what I said above, there can be a varying range of it.  I'm no writer, so I doubt I'd be able to come up with a suitable ending or endings.