279 réponses à ce sujet

[The Night Mammoth]

Someone's got a bee in their bonnet. Ants in their pants. Gorillas on their jimmies.

[KaiserShep]

Jimmies don't get rustled by gorillas.

[o Ventus]

AndyAK79 wrote...

You do realise that Trasformers was written by Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman right?

Your point being?

And whilst it's difficult to argue in defence of Uwe Boll, he funds his own films. Publishing anything yourself removes any requirement of talent or ability, for obvious reasons.

Except it doesn't.

[CronoDragoon]

Good post, Andy, but I find I disagree on points:

AndyAK79 wrote...
1. It wouldn't fit with the tone of the game

Arguments that the tone of the game itself is at fault hold no weight here. The arrival of the Reapers has to be devastating, or they would have been a severe let down after two games spent building them up as the ultimate threat. If the third game didn't feature the Reaper arrival then it would have been a real let down altogether. Therefore the tone of the game had to be desperate and bleak. An ending were Shepard walked off into the sunset and everyone somehow sprang back to life would betray the tone of the game entirely.

I agree with you if we consider Mass Effect 3 as a standalone game. If we consider it a part of a trilogy in which both the first two games received Hollywood-type happy endings, then I think the expectation for one is justified, whether or not it fits the tone of the third act. In other words, when the expectation is established by ME2 that "play perfectly and you get a happy ending" and then the player sees a lot of darkness and sacrifice in ME3, it may produce conflicting expectations: is the game this dark so that the light at the end will seem bright? or is this the tone the game wants throughout? To be fair, BW did warn fans ahead of time the ending would be "bittersweet" although I find the OEs to be merely bitter and the EC to strike a better balance.

2. It would not properly end Shepard's story.

Contrary to many arguments, Shepard does not necessarilly die at the end of the story; in two possible endings he either lives on as a reaper consciousness or is shown to be (barely) alive in the final scene. But the downbeat endings bring Shepard's story to a powerful close. No ending in which Shepard gets up and dusts himself off is going to have anything near the same emotional impact, nor is the story going to feel properly 'over'.

Since emotional impact is a personal experience, and since many people - including me - say that a "finding Shepard in the rubble" scene would provide proper catharsis, I have to say that this needs further explanation and analysis on your part.

4. The ending would lack drama.

The other option is, of course, to have a set of happy endings to choose from. But really, how dramatic is this ever going to be? Do you really want to end a series of games this involving with a meaningless set of choices between, say, Shepard becoming an admiral OR Shepard retiring to a beach?

Er, what's meaningless about choosing how the main character spends the rest of his life? This needs explanation. I'm also not sure what we're designating as "happy". If we're talking about a "flawless" victory then sure, maybe that's uncompelling. But Dragon Age Origins had multiple endings that I feel were "happy" endings even though, say, the main character dies in one of them. Why? Because they are still total victories. Not only do the good guys triumph, but their morality does too, and I think that those who demand "happy" endings would be satisfied with moral triumph instead.

As it stands Shepard is left with a hopeless choice between sacrificing his identity and sacrificing his life. It's a choice few men could make, and therefore it's a choice worthy of a hero and an epic story.

Yes, but is it the choice for THIS hero and THIS epic story? I would argue that based on the ending mechanics of ME1 and ME2, and hell even ME3 arcs like Rannoch and Tuchanka, hopelessness is a foreign concept.

(cue inspiring music...) I say let's come to terms with our grief, delete MEHEM (please, please erase this travesty from history) and celebrate the way our Shepards lived, not mourn the way they died.

While I will never consider MEHEM, I don't begrudge those who utilize it their ending. If they feel their personal journey is better served by fan fiction, then I am not one to judge "their canon" so long as they don't try to claim it as "the canon"...a claim I have not seen.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 26 septembre 2013 - 10:40 .

[CronoDragoon]

AndyAK79 wrote...

Despite this I agree. The really talented writers are here on BSN, arguing endlessly about how annoyed they are about the ending of Mass Effect 3 (usually with a poor grasp of spelling.and grammar). It's a hidden pool of limitless talent.

Although I love BioWare's writing team, especially when it comes to the characters, I will say that I've seen more intelligence on the BSN in BOTH critical and lauding posts than I found in the original endings, and even the EC. Much more thought has gone into analysis of the endings than was put into creating them. To some extent that is going to be true of many works, even the best ones. But in this case it becomes a negative claim when no one can figure out how the Crucible really functions because BioWare was intentionally vague in describing its functionality to avoid further nonsensical explanation.

[ruggly]

AndyAK79 wrote...

Since it isn't going to happen it won't ruins anyone's game.

Do you really spend your time imagining hypoyhetical scenario's that would make someone unhappy? The are words for people like that, but the auto-censor tends to remove them.

Actually yes, this is what I do all day, every day.  I actually just got back from the bar while enjoyig a few brewskies after work thinking about how I can ruin somebody's day, because if I have to be miserable because of a game then by Jove, so do they.

[AndyAK79]

Before I even start I'd like to thank you for actually engaging with the argument. The amount of arguments revolving around such epic criticism's as "So What?" "Yeah right," or "you must be an idiot if you don't agree with me" were begining to damage my faith in humanity. From the bottom of my heart, CronoDragoon, I salute you.

CronoDragoon wrote...

I agree with you if we consider Mass Effect 3 as a standalone game. If we consider it a part of a trilogy in which both the first two games received Hollywood-type happy endings, then I think the expectation for one is justified, whether or not it fits the tone of the third act. In other words, when the expectation is established by ME2 that "play perfectly and you get a happy ending" and then the player sees a lot of darkness and sacrifice in ME3, it may produce conflicting expectations: is the game this dark so that the light at the end will seem bright? or is this the tone the game wants throughout? To be fair, BW did warn fans ahead of time the ending would be "bittersweet" although I find the OEs to be merely bitter and the EC to strike a better balance. 

It's an interesting point, but there is room for different nuances within a series' tone. Consider the darker tone of The Empire Strikes Back in the Star Wars trilogy (it is a trilogy. I'm still convinced I imagined the prequels). Another example is The Lord of the Rings; Whilst The Fellowship of the Ring is largely a cheerful heroic adventure, The Return of the King is a far bleaker read (or watch, if you are not a bibliophile). Whilst Mass Effect 1 & 2 are far 'lighter' they do hint at the darkness to come (The growing knowledge of the cycle, the death of Kaidan/Ash, the true identity of the Collectors). As such they still fall within the tone of the trilogy as a whole. I am happy to admit that the EC greatly improves the ending. Whilst I was satisfied with the OE when I express genuine love for the endings it's really the EC I refer to. 

 
Since emotional impact is a personal experience, and since many people - including me - say that a "finding Shepard in the rubble" scene would provide proper catharsis, I have to say that this needs further explanation and analysis on your part. 

To do so would be a repeat of the ending of ME1. I strongly feel that the final tease which shows Shepard breath is one of the series' perfect moments: It gives the dedicated player a last moment of hope, without explaining everything. I don't need everything explained tn o me; I'm happy for Shepard to live on in my imagination without having everything that happened afterwards (or indeed how Shepard escaped) shown on screen. I'm glad that the last moment of the game instilled in me the idea that somewhere, somehow, my Shepard might be alive.

Er, what's meaningless about choosing how the main character spends the rest of his life? This needs explanation. I'm also not sure what we're designating as "happy". If we're talking about a "flawless" victory then sure, maybe that's uncompelling. But Dragon Age Origins had multiple endings that I feel were "happy" endings even though, say, the main character dies in one of them. Why? Because they are still total victories. Not only do the good guys triumph, but their morality does too, and I think that those who demand "happy" endings would be satisfied with moral triumph instead.

A 'total victory' was never possible in Mass Effect, from the very first game. The Reapers had been built up as such a staggering threat that their arrival had to be truly davastating to be dramatically credible. It had to end with a broken and devastated universe. As for choosing how the character spends the rest of his life, I refer you to the explanation above. There's nothing wrong with wondering what happens to Shepard, but if it was on screen it was dissapoint a lot of people, because it would't be what they wanted. You can choose what happens to Shepard afterwards (mine retired to a cottage on Eden Prime - don't even start, it's my fantasy), it just isn't shown on screen.

Yes, but is it the choice for THIS hero and THIS epic story? I would argue that based on the ending mechanics of ME1 and ME2, and hell even ME3 arcs like Rannoch and Tuchanka, hopelessness is a foreign concept.

Again, whilst ME3 is harsher than the other games, it still fits with the general tone. Consider the moment you have to decide between Ash and Kaidan in ME1; it's a hopeless choice, but one that has to be made. In ME2 either the Horizon colonists or your crew face a horrible death; you can't save them all. 

While I will never consider MEHEM, I don't begrudge those who utilize it their ending. If they feel their personal journey is better served by fan fiction, then I am not one to judge "their canon" so long as they don't try to claim it as "the canon"...a claim I have not seen.

I just don't hold with altering artistic endeavors to suit our expectations. I think Whistler's Mother looks a bit drab, but I'm not going to walk into the Musée d'Orsay to paint her dress blue.  

Modifié par AndyAK79, 27 septembre 2013 - 08:16 .

[Cobalt2113]

I think 'losing faith in humanity' is just a figure of speech rather than indicating a total descent into misanthropy. As far as idioms go I'd say it's similar to 'facepalming at their stupidity'. Which is fairly understandable. Mostly due to the sheer number of people here that are literally unable to conceive of any viewpoint other than their own.

Anyway, back to the topic!

[AndyAK79]

o Ventus wrote...

AndyAK79 wrote...

And whilst it's difficult to argue in defence of Uwe Boll, he funds his own films. Publishing anything yourself removes any requirement of talent or ability, for obvious reasons.

Except it doesn't.

Yes it does, fool.

This statement is so spectacularly idiotic that I really shouldn't dignify it with a response, but I'm going to in the dim hope of shaming you into thinking before you comment, and thereby immesurably improving your chances of functioning in society.

Self-publishing has no checks on quality other than those imposed by the author, who might be a complete drooling moron with the intelectual competence of a chimpanzee and the artistic talent of a paving slab. He can still publish his works himslef, even though anyone with an ounce of sense wouldn't go near them, because he's PUBLISHING THEM HIMSELF.

Hope that resolves your ridiculous objection.

Modifié par AndyAK79, 27 septembre 2013 - 10:16 .

[AndyAK79]

StreetMagic wrote...

If you really want to lose faith in humanity, read some on the ground stories about that hostage situation in Kenya. Or maybe visit Rotten.com. Better yet, try to google some accidental death videos and then read the random comments. Or maybe read an article about some teen bullied into commiting suicide, and read the comments on those. But this? This place shouldn't make you too pissed.

.. Or should it? Maybe I'm the one who has it wrong.

I don't know. It's late. It just kinds of pains me a little to see the fights around here, over such small stuff.

Woah... easy there fella. I recognise that there are more important and damaging things than Mass Effect, but this is a Mass Effect forum.

Besides, mild internet based misanthropy is not one of life's great evils. It helps me keep my sunny and tolerant disposition in real life.  

[Pressedcat]

This place is actually much better these days. It used to be like a tea party in a monkey house; all screaming and **** flinging.

[o Ventus]

AndyAK79 wrote...

This statement is so spectacularly idiotic that I really shouldn't dignify it with a response, but I'm going to in the dim hope of shaming you into thinking before you comment, and thereby immesurably improving your chances of functioning in society.

Self-publishing has no checks on quality other than those imposed by the author, who might be a complete drooling moron with the intelectual competence of a chimpanzee and the artistic talent of a paving slab. He can still publish his works himslef, even though anyone with an ounce of sense wouldn't go near them, because he's PUBLISHING THEM HIMSELF.

Hope that resolves your ridiculous objection.

Uwe Boll is a film producer. Uwe Boll's films are not particularly cheap. Film, on a professional level, is a capitalist venture. Look at literally any of Boll's box office gains; they're horrible. He's running himself out of business (not that anybody will miss him) by self publishing, because no sane production company wants to fund and market his crap. Sh*tty movies don't typically make money, at least, not enough to ensure enough if a profitable gain to make another movie. He's the modern-day Ed Wood (except Wood was often backed by studios who never have him enough money to make his movies, Boll is just terrible at his job). 

[Mathias]

AndyAK79 wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

AndyAK79 wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

You're really living inside your own bubble if you believe in all of that.

Ah, a variation on the legendary, "You're Just Wrong" argument. A well known riposte. It is equaled only in it's eloquence and power, perhaps, by "The Chewbacca Defence."

You, sir, are a true wordsmith.

Or maybe I only need my riposte to be short and sweet because so many people on this thread already disagree with you and think your logic sucks.

May I also say how inspiring it is to see a man who is not ashamed to let others fight his battles for him.

My admiration for you grows with every post, it really does.

Actually it's called avoiding redundancy. Why reiterate what's already been well said about your argument numerous times throughout this thread, and what I personally have already said to you in that other thread regarding the same issue?

Modifié par Mdoggy1214, 27 septembre 2013 - 01:42 .

[RatThing]

I think the synthesis ending was designed to be the super happy ending, thus only available with with high EMS. Peace forever with Synthetics, people reach the pinnacle of their evolution and even the Reaper are now buddies who share the knowledge of former cycles. For me it felt like the fairy tale ending with rainbows and butterflies, and yes I hated it.
I'm with the op here. Thousands of cycles lost the fight against the reapers. Making this cycle different without paying a price for it wouldn't feel right IMO. It's probably personal taste, but remember that you had to pay a price to stop Sovereign in ME1 too. I do give Kudos to the creators of MEHEM though, for creating sth. like this in their free time.

Modifié par RatThing, 27 septembre 2013 - 02:51 .

[Mathias]

RatThing wrote...

I think the synthesis ending was designed to be the super happy ending, thus only available with with high EMS. Peace forever with Synthetics, people reach the pinnacle of their evolution and even the Reaper are now buddies who share the knowledge of former cycles. For me it felt like the fairy tale ending with rainbows and butterflies, and yes I hated it.
I'm with the op here. Thousands of cycles lost the fight against the reapers. Making this cycle different without paying a price for it wouldn't feel right IMO. It's probably personal taste, but remember that you had to pay a price to stop Sovereign in ME1 too. I do give Kudos to the creators of MEHEM though, for creating sth. like this in their free time.

Synthesis isn't a good example of a Super Happy Ending though because of how incredibly stupid it was. The problem I see with people saying that sacrifice is a requirement for an ending to Mass Effect is that the trilogy, not just the one game, already had a boat load of sacrifice.

Virmire
End choice in ME1
Shepard (when he saved Joker in ME2)
Mordin
Legion
Victus
The Second Alliant Fleet

These are just some right off the top of my head that gave their lives for the cause. I don't see how the death of one more character, in this case the protagonist, should be a requirement towards the end.

Secondly as for the Reapers being stopped this cycle as oppose to the previous ones, the story gave a strong impression that the reason why the current cycle succeeded was because they were warned in time, and because they fought as a united galaxy. Shepard dying in all three endings didn't feel natural, in fact it felt very contrived. It was as if the writers thought that this is a deep dark story, so the Hero has to die, because that too is also deep. 

[Dextro Milk]

I don't know what you guys are talking about...

I got a happy ending.

[AndyAK79]

Please, please, please, please, please can you pay attention to what you are reading/writing. This was the excerpt I was refering to.

[quote]o Ventus wrote...

AndyAK79 wrote...





[quote]And whilst it's difficult to argue in defence of Uwe Boll, he funds his own films. Publishing anything yourself removes any requirement of talent or ability, for obvious reasons.[/quote]

Except it doesn't.

[/quote]



Please note the part were you contradict my statement that "Publishing anything yourself removes any requirement of talent or ability, for obvious reasons" with the words "Except it doesn't"

Here is your continuation of this discussion.

[quote]o Ventus wrote...

Uwe Boll is a film producer. Uwe Boll's films are not particularly cheap. Film, on a professional level, is a capitalist venture. Look at literally any of Boll's box office gains; they're horrible. He's running himself out of business (not that anybody will miss him) by self publishing, because no sane production company wants to fund and market his crap. Sh*tty movies don't typically make money, at least, not enough to ensure enough if a profitable gain to make another movie. He's the modern-day Ed Wood (except Wood was often backed by studios who never have him enough money to make his movies, Boll is just terrible at his job).

[/quote]

[/quote]

You have just written a lengthy paragraph about someone who self publishes and, by your own admission, has no talent or ability.

Modifié par AndyAK79, 27 septembre 2013 - 03:33 .

[KaiserShep]

Dextro Milk wrote...

I don't know what you guys are talking about...

I got a happy ending.

...giggity? 

[Dextro Milk]

KaiserShep wrote...

Dextro Milk wrote...

I don't know what you guys are talking about...

I got a happy ending.

...giggity? 

Destroy.

Lol, Shepard already got plenty of sex tbh.

[KaiserShep]

Yeah, honestly, I would consider destroy as it's depicted in high EMS destroy to be a fairly happy ending compared to the wankfest that was the original ending.