82 réponses à ce sujet

[ianvillan]

Narrow Margin wrote...

The problem for me with Meredith was, in a mage supporting playthrough, you missed contextualising background information - or at least I did.

For much of the game she came across as authoritarian, quite harsh, but not insane. Then at the end of the game appears to just go nuts with only the fuzzily implied effects of red lyrium, and the trigger of the immediate events to justify it. Once you add in the fact she's carrying the memory of being a terrified, helpless child, it becomes a lot more understandable.

I would have preferred to get a lot more background history for both her and Orsino and have their stories give a personal reflection of the larger scale mage/templar friction.

They should both aof been introduced earlier in the story and given more time to develop.

[Incantrix]

Didn't like either characters. Meredith was crazy and Orsino was blind. Blind + crazy = ???

[leaguer of one]

OdanUrr wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

There not badly written or wasted potential. The goal with the character was to show the worst of both sides. It was to show what would happen if the wrong people were inchage of there organizations. Meredith was not a stereotype tyrant, her concept to to keep order no matter what. And with Orsino, his actions and connections to Quentin if you side with the templars.

I didn't like that bit, it felt forced, as if it were solely included for the purpose of telling the player you were also wrong to side with the mages. And don't get me started on Orsino's and Meredith's transformations. 

I hope you realise both sides are wrong. What the leader does is not always the reflection of the group. Orsino's actions were just to protect the mages. We can also say say Meredith is also at fault because ignored the case when it came up on her desk at the first chapter of the game. Remeber there was a templer who was hunting down Quenton in the first 2 chapters and Meredith told him to stand down. She was so focued on a mage uprising that she did not care to understand there nature to something was wrong.

You have the understand, the drive of there characters is paranoia. They wee meant to be bad at there jobs and do ignorat things out of fear. You can see that during the bast server   cold and the on the loose quest were Orsino send Hawke on a mission think Meredith was trying to trick him.

[leaguer of one]

Incantrix wrote...

Didn't like either characters. Meredith was crazy and Orsino was blind. Blind + crazy = ???

Blind about what?

[ZebOswalt]

I like Orsino better well till he becomes a blood mage abomination. *sigh*. Still to me Meredith was using a bad situation to a push her own hate of Mages or B. Use that political dis like of Mages to get more political power. And do what was basically a Military que. Orsino is doing what he can to protect the mages and heck he's an elf so he knows what stupid people will do out of fear of the unknown. Sadly he gives into his own fear, but ah well. People do that. I like D.A. 2 so I let it go. Merideth was either a Zelot or a manipulator that relizes people will follow Hawk more. She sees that which ever way Hawke went at the end of the day the Average Kirkwaler would respect them more than her. And the Learum sword has made her insane by the time you fight her.

[Hainkpe]

It was a raging love affair that was based in hate and raw sensuality. Meredith couldn't handle it and turned to the red lyricism as solace only to lose herself. In his despair, Orsino drew upon his research as a way of coping. Only he too lost himself in his pursuit of justice. What justice that was, for the mages or for his beloved Meredith, we will never know.

Good one. XD

Modifié par Hainkpe, 25 septembre 2013 - 05:23 .

[leaguer of one]

ZebOswalt wrote...

I like Orsino better well till he becomes a blood mage abomination. *sigh*. Still to me Meredith was using a bad situation to a push her own hate of Mages or B. Use that political dis like of Mages to get more political power. And do what was basically a Military que. Orsino is doing what he can to protect the mages and heck he's an elf so he knows what stupid people will do out of fear of the unknown. Sadly he gives into his own fear, but ah well. People do that. I like D.A. 2 so I let it go. Merideth was either a Zelot or a manipulator that relizes people will follow Hawk more. She sees that which ever way Hawke went at the end of the day the Average Kirkwaler would respect them more than her. And the Learum sword has made her insane by the time you fight her.

It not that She was trying to do a military que or get more power. You have to not that  She was the one who took down the previous vicount before the last one. Kirkwall use to be ruled by a Tyrannt and Meredith was the one to take him down. That why the templars have so much power over Kirkwall. Her motivation is fear and to maintain order and she does this near blindly. You have also not that the chantry lets her have all this power as well.

[wcholcombe]

Navasha wrote...

For me, Templars will ultimately be the responsible party. Most of the 'horrific' events perpetrated by mages are simply a response the abuse of the Templars.

When an abused dog turns and bites his abusive master... I cheer for the dog. I don't blame the dog one bit for his actions.

Thats a rationalisation for you.  "We are being stereotyped and abused.  Lets just start killing people."

[leaguer of one]

wcholcombe wrote...

Navasha wrote...

For me, Templars will ultimately be the responsible party. Most of the 'horrific' events perpetrated by mages are simply a response the abuse of the Templars.

When an abused dog turns and bites his abusive master... I cheer for the dog. I don't blame the dog one bit for his actions.

Thats a rationalisation for you.  "We are being stereotyped and abused.  Lets just start killing people."

Last time I checked Mages and Templars were sapposed to work together.

[Neon Rising Winter]

leaguer of one wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Navasha wrote...

For me, Templars will ultimately be the responsible party. Most of the 'horrific' events perpetrated by mages are simply a response the abuse of the Templars.

When an abused dog turns and bites his abusive master... I cheer for the dog. I don't blame the dog one bit for his actions.

Thats a rationalisation for you.  "We are being stereotyped and abused.  Lets just start killing people."

Last time I checked Mages and Templars were sapposed to work together.

There's also the issue that there's really three groups involved in the relationship. Templars, circle mages and non circle mages. Templars and circle mages need a co-operative relationship to function effectively, but by definition templars and non circle mages have a confrontational one. Which then pollutes the templar/circle mage relationship, and renders the templars less effective in that arena. Someone needs to rewrite their organisational chart.

[Vortex13]

Navasha wrote...

For me, Templars will ultimately be the responsible party. Most of the 'horrific' events perpetrated by mages are simply a response the abuse of the Templars.

When an abused dog turns and bites his abusive master... I cheer for the dog. I don't blame the dog one bit for his actions.

Orsino becoming a Harvester as justification for the treatment of Mages, or any Mage that just summons Demons or allows themselves to become an abomination is not (IMO) a valid justification of their predicament. That and the argument that the Mages had no choice is not some great act of martyrdom on behalf of all Mages everywhere; its selfish, and only serves to further the stigma that people view mages with.

I don't see how a person who is advocating for Mage rights can see anything as summoning demons or becoming a Harvester as a valid method of serving their cause. I can guarantee that if Hawke and Co. hadn't have been there to stop Orsino, and that it fell to the Templars to defeat the monstrosity that the average citizens; even the mage supporters; would have praised the knights for saving the city.

Orsino becoming a Harvester was akin to releasing a biological or chemical weapon into a city to get back at one group of people. Even if the group of people had murdered your family, people will look at you as the monster for indiscriminetly killing everything.

Modifié par Vortex13, 25 septembre 2013 - 06:23 .

[Rpgfantasyplayer]

I am not a fan of Meredith or Orsino. I understand that Kirkwall held more crazies then other areas due to the evil below, but it just seemed out of context for me on both sides. Even though you support one over the other, they both turn on you and try to kill you. Even if you agree with them whole heartedly. I have never supported Meredith to the point that I heard her back story. (Guess I need to replay it again to hear that.) I also don't think Meredith was out for a military coup. Bioware had a reason for how they did it, I just am not sure what it was.
And as others have said, the circle and the templars are suppose to work together. Maybe it didn't work that way due to the outside force around Kirkwall and just lead everyone to be more distrustful of one another more than it normally would.

[OdanUrr]

Vortex13 wrote...

I can guarantee that if Hawke and Co. hadn't have been there to stop Orsino, and that it fell to the Templars to defeat the monstrosity that the average citizens; even the mage supporters; would have praised the knights for saving the city.

Now I'm eager to write a story about it. It helps that I'm listening to "Words Win Wars.":D

Modifié par OdanUrr, 25 septembre 2013 - 06:28 .

[ianvillan]

Narrow Margin wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Navasha wrote...

For me, Templars will ultimately be the responsible party. Most of the 'horrific' events perpetrated by mages are simply a response the abuse of the Templars.

When an abused dog turns and bites his abusive master... I cheer for the dog. I don't blame the dog one bit for his actions.

Thats a rationalisation for you.  "We are being stereotyped and abused.  Lets just start killing people."

Last time I checked Mages and Templars were sapposed to work together.

There's also the issue that there's really three groups involved in the relationship. Templars, circle mages and non circle mages. Templars and circle mages need a co-operative relationship to function effectively, but by definition templars and non circle mages have a confrontational one. Which then pollutes the templar/circle mage relationship, and renders the templars less effective in that arena. Someone needs to rewrite their organisational chart.

I would also put the Chantry into the relationship and say that their dogma of mages being cursed and the cause of the darkspawn and loss of the maker is a major part of the Templars relationship to the mages.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Vortex13 wrote...

Orsino becoming a Harvester was akin to releasing a biological or chemical weapon into a city to get back at one group of people. Even if the group of people had murdered your family, people will look at you as the monster for indiscriminetly killing everything.

Yes, it is the kind of action guaranteed to rally popular support against mages. Which raises the question of whether it was a conscious decision on the part of the Meredith to threaten to kill them all in an attempt to provoke that kind of response?  I don't see her as that destructively anti-mage through most of the game, but at the end when she's broken by the red lyrium and her agenda distorted, it might serve her purpose. It's like she's the Templar reflection of Anders, with her own fears built up and twisted causing her to take actions guaranteed to create an extreme response and allow the opposition to be demonised.

Modifié par Narrow Margin, 25 septembre 2013 - 06:39 .

[Vortex13]

Narrow Margin wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

Orsino becoming a Harvester was akin to releasing a biological or chemical weapon into a city to get back at one group of people. Even if the group of people had murdered your family, people will look at you as the monster for indiscriminetly killing everything.

Yes, it is the kind of action guaranteed to rally popular support against mages. Which raises the question of whether it was a conscious decision on the part of the Meredith to threaten to kill them all in an attempt to provoke that kind of response?  I don't see her as that destructively anti-mage through most of the game, but at the end when she's broken by the red lyrium and her agenda distorted, it might serve her purpose. It's like she's the Templar reflection of Anders, with her own fears built up and twisted causing her to take actions guaranteed to create an extreme response and allow the opposition to be demonised.

I am of the opinion that it was not intended to provoke a respone, but (again) if Hawke and Co. hadn't have been there, I am convinced that Meridith (if she hadn't tried to kill everyone herself) would have used that action to further demonize the mages.

As the saying goes "Never let a good crisis go to waste."

[Reaverwind]

VampireSoap wrote...



You know something's wrong when you find out Orsino is still not emasculated after spending so many years being in the proximity of Meredith...

Pity they didn't resolve their issues with some "creative wrestling". 

[Ozzy]

I still don't understand how wrapping himself in dead bodies made Orsino a Harvester. Aren't they essentially supposed to be a frakked up golem?

Also, wasn't a fan of the Meredith's lightsaber tricks at the end. Bioware went on and on about wanting to give us a more human conflict with 'grey' characters and the idol took what was once a complex character and made her into a caricature. It took away her agency. 

Modifié par AstusOz, 25 septembre 2013 - 06:54 .

[Neon Rising Winter]

Vortex13 wrote...

Narrow Margin wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

Orsino becoming a Harvester was akin to releasing a biological or chemical weapon into a city to get back at one group of people. Even if the group of people had murdered your family, people will look at you as the monster for indiscriminetly killing everything.

Yes, it is the kind of action guaranteed to rally popular support against mages. Which raises the question of whether it was a conscious decision on the part of the Meredith to threaten to kill them all in an attempt to provoke that kind of response?  I don't see her as that destructively anti-mage through most of the game, but at the end when she's broken by the red lyrium and her agenda distorted, it might serve her purpose. It's like she's the Templar reflection of Anders, with her own fears built up and twisted causing her to take actions guaranteed to create an extreme response and allow the opposition to be demonised.

I am of the opinion that it was not intended to provoke a respone, but (again) if Hawke and Co. hadn't have been there, I am convinced that Meridith (if she hadn't tried to kill everyone herself) would have used that action to further demonize the mages.

As the saying goes "Never let a good crisis go to waste."

I'm probably over-rationalising. I tend to see the end of DA2 as the end result of years of growing tension in an unstable
environment, with numerous unsavoury influences on all sides. Everyone is so far past rational behaviour there's no hope of anything other than a series of disasters.

Modifié par Narrow Margin, 25 septembre 2013 - 06:52 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

They're both morons as far as I'm concerned.

[leaguer of one]

AstusOz wrote...

I still don't understand how wrapping himself in dead bodies made Orsino a Harvester. Aren't they essentially supposed to be a frakked up golem?

Also, wasn't a fan of the Meredith's lightsaber tricks at the end. Bioware went on and on about wanting to give us a more human conflict with 'grey' characters and the idol took what was once a complex character and made her into a caricature. It took away her agency. 

Think about it this way. ...Meredith was crazy, not evil. She thought she was in the right, she just wanted to ensure order. The fact she went so far to make a lyrium sword out of something she has no idea how it would effect her point how off she was before the idols influence.

[wcholcombe]

ianvillan wrote...



I would also put the Chantry into the relationship and say that their dogma of mages being cursed and the cause of the darkspawn and loss of the maker is a major part of the Templars relationship to the mages.

People point to this, but read Asunder.  People don't fear mages and magic because the Chantry tells them to.  They fear mages and magic because their neighbors kid developed magical powers and burned down his whole farm, or the family across town had a kid develope magic and killed his whole family, or the village down the road had an apostate turn into an abomination and whipe out the entire town.

All but the last are direct comments made by villagers in Asunder about magic when they were about to kill a Templar to kill mages.

The last one is just referenced in the lore several times in both games and both collectors edition strategy guides.

[leaguer of one]

wcholcombe wrote...

ianvillan wrote...



I would also put the Chantry into the relationship and say that their dogma of mages being cursed and the cause of the darkspawn and loss of the maker is a major part of the Templars relationship to the mages.

People point to this, but read Asunder.  People don't fear mages and magic because the Chantry tells them to.  They fear mages and magic because their neighbors kid developed magical powers and burned down his whole farm, or the family across town had a kid develope magic and killed his whole family, or the village down the road had an apostate turn into an abomination and whipe out the entire town.

All but the last are direct comments made by villagers in Asunder about magic when they were about to kill a Templar to kill mages.

The last one is just referenced in the lore several times in both games and both collectors edition strategy guides.

Do you know how rarely that happen? That just a case in one  or two village.

[Jonathan Seagull]

Purely in terms of character development, I tend to think Meredith comes out a little better than Orsino. But, as cool as I think her official introduction at the end of Act II is, I would trade it in favor of getting to know both of them a bit more throughout the game.

To state something that's been said many times, I think the ending also would have worked better if we only had to fight one of them, depending on our side. Expanding on that, even when we have to fight Orsino, I wouldn't want him to use blood magic. He should just be a very powerful mage, perhaps with backup from a few others.

[cjones91]

wcholcombe wrote...

ianvillan wrote...



I would also put the Chantry into the relationship and say that their dogma of mages being cursed and the cause of the darkspawn and loss of the maker is a major part of the Templars relationship to the mages.

People point to this, but read Asunder.  People don't fear mages and magic because the Chantry tells them to.  They fear mages and magic because their neighbors kid developed magical powers and burned down his whole farm, or the family across town had a kid develope magic and killed his whole family, or the village down the road had an apostate turn into an abomination and whipe out the entire town.

All but the last are direct comments made by villagers in Asunder about magic when they were about to kill a Templar to kill mages.

The last one is just referenced in the lore several times in both games and both collectors edition strategy guides.

The Chantry feeds that fear though.