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[o Ventus]

David7204 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It's much more of an amalgam of smaller ideas and subtle changes. ME 2's main plot focused on removing the Reaper's weapon of indoctrination. Changes throughout ME 1 and ME 2 focused on making the galaxy plausibly stronger without reducing the Reapers as threats or introducing any revolutionary technology or abilities. An entire new arc in ME 3 focused on the Terminus Systems. Alterations to battles to include full-sized Reapers being taken out. Different dialogue with the Alliance and Council to rid fans of the ridiculous notion of building a bajillion dreadnoughts. Altered level design, particularly throughout ME 2, to highlight military preparation and construction.

So a series of seemingly arbitrary changes with no apparent end result? Gotcha.

ME1 already established the current cycle as having an advantage over the others with the protheans blockin the Keeper signal, and it isn't at all implausible that we may hae been able to gain further advances by studying debris from Sovereign. Changing ME2's plot to "stop indoctrination" wouldn't even be possible, considering that we've known sicken ME1 how indoctrination actually works.

[David7204]

Yes, here's the thread I made about it.

[David7204]

I disagree, Ventus. It would be be perfectly possible.

[o Ventus]

David7204 wrote...

I disagree, Ventus. It would be be perfectly possible.

Disagree all you want, but that doesn't make it any less objectively impossible, unless your plan is to lobotomize every living organism in the inhabited galaxy.

Modifié par o Ventus, 26 septembre 2013 - 01:34 .

[kathic]

Right does not make might. A noble cause does not mean you will win the war.

[David7204]

Maybe you should take a look at my thread, where I explain my very good and perfectly possible idea in detail?

Modifié par David7204, 26 septembre 2013 - 01:34 .

[Andrew Lucas]

The Crucible is the motive that people (not shep friends) fought with Shepard as a united galaxy, without it We probaly loses the war,imagine if the crucible was a reaper trap,in that the EMS have a big importance.

[o Ventus]

David7204 wrote...

Maybe you should take a look at my thread, where I explain my very good and perfectly possible idea in detail?

I have. One problem is the lack of an explanation as to how you plan on "stopping indoctrination". The implication  that the Collectors abduct people to study them for indoctrination purposes is also far-reaching, when that is wholly unnecessary.

And lol@ Saren and Benezia's indoctrination "not fully working". That actually made me stop and laugh.

[KENNY4753]

Puzzle Theory is what conventional victory/successful refuse should have been like.

[jasonxxsatanna]

To me we should have been give the choice in to try conventionally or go for the crucible. ....my 1st time playing when on Rannoch I thought we maybe given that option since we do destroy a reaper by exploiting its weak spot, all our fleets could have fired on that weak spot and then the final ground battle could have taken place on the Citadel in a sort of nostalgic way to ME1

[Jukaga]

Curious.. Where was it officially stated that there were precisely three collector ships?

[Tron Mega]

JShepardN7 wrote...

The Crucible is the motive that people (not shep friends) fought with Shepard as a united galaxy, without it We probaly loses the war,imagine if the crucible was a reaper trap,in that the EMS have a big importance.

the motive could have been "help me bang liara" just as much as it could have been "help me defeat the reapers"

the replayability already sucks, if the crucible was a reaper trap all along, people would lose more then their minds. how hard would you have to try to enjoy ME3s story if the entire time the thing your trying to make help you, hurts you, and you know it the whole time.

i would assume ME4 would do exactly that to be honest with you.

honestly, id still be playing ME3 if it included conventiaonal victory. id have about 8 trilogy playthroughs done, easy. its too bad EMS means squat, and the ending is way to out of place for me to even want to watch again.

Modifié par Tron Mega, 26 septembre 2013 - 03:30 .

[grey_wind]

What's to stop the Collectors from building another ship if we don't know what the production capabilities of their base are?

It's almost like you'd have to find out what their base beyond the Omega-4 relay entails to be sure you've stopped them for good...

[KaiserShep]

I feel like I'm the only one that actually likes the idea of somehow using the mass relay network against them. The way it was executed could've used more refinement, but I found that part of the story pretty acceptable. I would say that a mix of conventional victory and incorporating the Citadel and mass relays would work. I can see the fleets taking earth successfully in a high EMS scenario, and then using something else to finish off the rest of them, since there's way too many reapers to get the same results for each system.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 26 septembre 2013 - 04:17 .

[Dean_the_Young]

David7204 wrote...

I disagree, Ventus. It would be be perfectly possible.

Possible isn't in doubt. Whether it would be better is.  So far you have a no sell on how it would be better, past your general 'I'd like it more.' Which is fine for you, but not much an improvement for the rest of us except in so much how it affects your engagement with anyone else.

[Dean_the_Young]

StreetMagic wrote...

Conventional or unconventional, I think the writers got too much in the way of their own story towards the end there. Hudson wanted to do something "memorable", but apparently he thought that was all on him. That creating something memorable is strictly a one side type of thing. When Bioware has always been best at being memorable when the experience is tailored to different player experiences. The whole thing needed more elements that reflected your previous choices. More presence of past friends and squad, more presence of armies you gathered, of choices you made.. little touches like Kirrahe or Wrex joining your side, Jack's students taking an offensive or defensive approach, etc.. The ending didn't have that special magic that made it feel like it was all being custom tailored for you, personally. They need to play ME2 and DAO again. They were on a roll for a second there.

ME2 was a game that made it hard to role towards anything but ME3.


A strong, central, driving narrative supported in theme or relevance by supporting narratives? No check. The crew could hardly have been more removed from the central premise of the Collectors.
Carrying on the key themes and decisions of the first game? No check. at all. Carryover was horrible.
A supporting cast that reinforces eachother as a group for themes and character development? Uh, no. ME3 hit ME2 out of the park as far as shipmate interaction went, rather than a series of isolated character threads.
Creating a supporting cast that can be instrumental in the plot of the next game? No check- making the vast majority of your resource sink cast killable means that the next game has to be able to carry on without them, thus rendering their importance moot. Either they aren't important at all, or their role is fillable by a new stand-in character.
Progress on beating the Reapers? No check, in part to making the Collector Base and all similar potential wonder weapons and alliances destroyable, and in part for how it handled the depiction of the Reapers (and Geth) in ME2 by making everyone forget/stop caring.

Or, equally important, planning the current game with the sequel in mind? Considering that the writers admit they didn't know the major ME3 plot points and decisions until after they started working on it...


ME2 was an enjoyable power trip fantasy, with everyone telling the unaccountable player projection character how amazing he/she is while saving the day, but as a trilogy bridger it was pretty pathetic in its role. It might have made a good spin-off side-game, but a game that resolved nothing and threw dozens of ideas at the wall to see what would stick for the sequel is not the basis for comparison for a trilogy ender.

[shodiswe]

Going after the Collectors is a delaying action, nothing more. It doesn't win any war.

If Conventional Victory had been possible agaisnt the Reapers as a whole, then noone would have cared about the crusible, there would have been no need to worry since an enemy that can be beaten conventionaly is inferior. This isn't the case with the Reapers.

A war against the Batarian Hegemony woudl have been fairly conventional with a few Batarian terrorist attacks on civilian populations that needs to be foiled along the way.

[OdanUrr]

Conventional victory doesn't make sense because it undermines the plot of ME3.

[YourFleshIsMine]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 I just thought of something that tickled me a bit...

For all the QQing about how we could have beat the Reapers in a straight-up fight if only BioWare knew as much as [I, the CV ending supporter and expert Reaper strategist]... what of ME2? In retrospect, the main mission was an utter fool's errand.

Collectors had three ships. Vega destroyed one in ME:PL. The third was destroyed during the Reaper War in ME3. And the second was destroyed by the Normandy -- one frigate, regardless whether its guns were upgraded -- in ME2.

Without a ship, there are no more abductions. It's over. You win. Was it not silly then to rely on a laughably small force jumping into unknown territory relying on a device w/ color-coded explosions... when conventional victory was a provable solution?

Except it wasn't. In ME2 the collector ships you speak of are not reapers. After ME1 where Shepard beats Saren, the second attempt to build a reaper is done secretly by the collectors. Beating the collectors however doesn't mean you can actually beat the reapers.

The comment that there are no more abductions is a false conclusion. As you may know the Reapers in ME3 do it themselves. In fact it's where Shepard ends up at the end going up to the Citadel via the beam. That beam was there to collect bodies. That was the whole point of it.

So no, ME2 in no way proves that a conventional victory was possible. Shepard just stopped plan B and so the Reapers went to plan C: all out war. Considering the speed with which they blew through Earth's defenses, it was simply clear that a conventional war was a losing one. We might kill some of them or one at a time, but not their full force.

[Kataphrut94]

The main post seems more like he's talking about convectional victory - here referring to naval supremacy via armed fleets - against the Collectors, not the Reapers. I'm sort of with him here- in isolation the Collector Ships are dangerous, but the fact that the Normandy can destroy it without gun upgrades, combined with the fact that they would have had to start hitting militarised space eventually ultimately makes the whole suicide mission a waste of time. If you destroy all the ships, the Collectors (and the Human Reaper) are kind of stuck.

Regarding Reaper conventional victory, maybe that could have been possible if the galaxy had believed Shepard from the beginning and prepared accordingly. But the situation presented in ME2 and ME3 basically put that idea out to pasture.