12 réponses à ce sujet

[Klaus-Maria Pfertsegentakl]

I apologize for my bad English but I hope you'll find my post worth your time anyway.

I would like to discuss the name for the kossith race - or, in fact, the
lack thereof. I understand that the term kossith is long-time dead in
Thedas, but wouldn't it be easier to come up with some name for the
biological race? Even something not formal but colloquial. Otherwise our
poor vashoth Inquisitor will get tired or correcting people (especially
if one plays as a tal-vashoth and not just vashoth). After all Qun is
not a race, but philosophy/religion/etc. We don't call dwellers of
Thedas andrastians just because it is the main religion in the most
influential parts of Thedas, do we? Each race has a name. And we don't
call humans andrastians even if this race started this religion. After
all not all humans are andrastians and not all andrastians are humans.
The same with elves - dalish is a specific term, not very broad - which
gives an additional information, but still coexist with the word "elf".
Etc.

Until we get a name for the biological kossith race people will continue
arguing, correcting each other and debating what term is wrong, and
what term is not. Because yes, some of us do want to use the right word
in the right situation

[David Gaider]

The difficulty here is that the Qunari do not have a single word they use for their race. They have many words they use as identifiers. Overall it is simply "Qunari"-- which encompasses all followers of the Qun, which as far as they're concerned is everyone worth mentioning. And as far as people in the rest of Thedas are concerned, that is their racial name.

If there's a need to separate the Qunari who aren't members of their race, and "viddathari" isn't considered useful, an adjective is added (like "elven Qunari"). For members of their race which aren't followers of the Qun, it's "Tal-Vashoth".

Is this confusing? To some people who like having a handy identifier it is, but the Qunari aren't really interested in arranging their names to make things convenient for other cultures. Their names are exact classifications, and are incredibly important to them-- even Sten doesn't tell you the name that he uses among the Qunari. If you'll recall, he says that Sten is the name you may use because it'll be easier for you.

In that vein, if fans wish to use "kossith" as a racial identifier, you're free to do so. It's an old name for the Qunari, but one they no longer accept-- in-game, that is. So we'll never use it in the game, but if it makes it handier for you out of the game, by all means use it. Since it's not something we mention in the game, however, don't be surprised if few people know what the heck you're talking about. As I've mentioned before, the only time I get irritated is when hardcore fans scold people on the "proper" use of the word when the only proper use is the in-world one-- or when particular pedantic fans moan about how the lack of a proper racial name is confusing (and thus an error in the lore) when that's exactly what it's designed to be.

[David Gaider]

Chari wrote...
But what if we want to discuss the kossith race as a whole - including qunari, tal-vashoth and kossiths who for some reason were brought up outside of both factions?
Without a name it's just... damn confusing

Like I already said, if you want to use "kossith" out of game because you find it easier, that's fine. Just don't expect everyone to know what you're talking about, and don't scold them that it's the proper name for the race because it's not. We'll never use it.

It's confusing because that's exactly what it is. That's what the Qunari are by design. They have more exact words they use and don't see a need for a racial identifier-- and to everyone else in Thedas they're all simply Qunari (including the Tal-Vashoth). As I said.

[David Gaider]

Chari wrote...
It's just... it is a race. One of the only four available civilizations of Thedas which has been known for centures. And no language or  nation has made up their own name for it? Dwarven, elven... they do have different names for human, elves, dwarves, don't they? Or orlesian, eh, tevinter-ian?.. But I guess they don't have a name in these languages either?.. As if the whole world had some kind of gathering where htey agreed on not having a name for the kossith race
Even nothing colloquial like ox-men, or le corné/le Qunaré? Or, er, dorf-len?

They call them Qunari. Everyone calls them Qunari. They call the Tal-Vashoth Qunari (which annoys Tal-Vashoth, but they wouldn't expect any more from foreigners than Sten does).

If they encounter an elf who's part of the Qun, first they'd call them an "elf". Maybe they'd say "elven follower of the Qun" if they knew that. If they heard them call themselves "Qunari" they'd wrinkle their noses in confusion, and maybe amend that to "elven Qunari".

It is not that difficult to wrap your head around, surely. Either way, these are all in-game terms. As I said, if you wish to use "kossith" out of game, that's fine-- but it is an out-of-game term only. It is not proper usage.

[Allan Schumacher]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

It's a race, and it's a religion.  And the two groups don't overlap perfectly.  Some members of the race don't belong to the religion, and some members of the religion don't belong to the race.  And the two groups are labelled using exactly the same word.

Surely you can think of a real world example (substituting ethnicity for race) that does the same thing.  I certainly can.

Definitely.  In one case, I actually only learned of the distinction in the past few months, actually.

[David Gaider]

Qistina wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
If I remember correctly, they identify themselves and each other by seniority or weapon of choice in such a circumstance.

Sten : I found this weapon, i wonder who it's belong to?
Sten : It belong to Sten
Sten : Which Sten?
Sten : Oh both of you found it, that weapon belong to me
Sten : Who are you?
Sten : Sten, of the Beresad
Sten : We are all Sten of the Beresad!

As I mentioned earlier, Sten in DAO gives you that name to use because he tells you his real name would be difficult for you to pronounce. Qunari names are long and have an exact meaning regarding their birth and station-- sort of like a SIN-- provided to them by the Tamassrans, and which are very important to them. One assumes they might have a shortened version that fellow Qunari who are familiar with them might use, but clearly Sten did not think giving you that was worthwhile. You are, effectively, calling him "soldier".

If you're assuming that Qunari would call each other that, then you are incorrect.

[David Gaider]

Quatre04 wrote...
Well, the text states:

"The horned race's ancient name is "kossith". This term is not widely used or even widely known outside scholarly circles. Qunari leadership do not recognize even the concept of kossith and few if any rank and file Qunari are aware of the word. [...] A person is either Qunari or not Qunari, and because the Qunari have practiced selective breeding for thousands of years, no one can be certain what the original kossith looked like."

(Dragon Age: The World of Thedas, page 40-41)


"There was a time when the kossith race prayed to animist gods. [...] Then came Ashkaari Koslun, a great thinker whose teachings molded the kossith into the godless, disciplined Qunari."

(TWoT, page 127)


It doesn't look like the term refers to today's Qunari or Tal-Vashoth.

Indeed.

If one says "but the lorebook mentions the word 'kossith'!" then the answer has to be "yes-- perhaps you should try reading it."

[David Gaider]

Chari wrote...
A qunari is literally "a person of qun". Ari stands for person, Qun is... qun

The Qunari are aware of this, as are Tal-Vashoth.

The rest of the people in Thedas not so much. The majority of fans also not so much.

Also, the issue is that both the Qunari and Tal-Vashoth don't accept a racial name, and wouldn't identify as "kossith". As I've said, if you wish to use kossith out of game because you feel a burning need to talk about the race as a blanket term and adjectives are anathema to you, then go ahead. But that's not the in-game lore, it's not what the Qunari and Tal-Vashoth would use, and most people are still not going to know what you mean since most of them are like Thedosians and have no issue with "Qunari" meaning both the race and the culture.

If your assertion is that the in-game lore is wrong because it doesn't lend itself to being easily discussed out-of-game, then I don't really have much to say. Sorry.

MisanthropePrime wrote...
I'll be honest, I don't get the writers' resistance to the fans' desire for precision. Qunari is the only time in the setting you guys use "culture" and "biological race" simultaneously. Other times, you have things like "Ferelden" or "Orzammar" or "Dalish" to describe cultures, and then words like "human", "dwarf" and "elf" for species. But when we ask for the same thing for the Qunari, I find a strange hostility coming from the writers, and I'm not quite sure why. What's with this strange double standard?

Double standard? Because the Qunari are different than the other cultures, or because we're not interested in changing the in-game lore in order to satisfy an out-of-game desire for a word which doesn't exist in-game? I've consistently said fans are free to use the antiquated word if they wish-- but it's not what we'll use, and it's not the correct term. If either of those things are "double standards", then I think your own definitions need some work.

Modifié par David Gaider, 02 octobre 2013 - 02:59 .

[David Gaider]

Chari wrote...
And what if I want to talk about both tal-vashoth and qunari as species XD? No viddathari, just species, because tal-vashoths are not qunari and qunari are not tal-vashoths...

If saying Qunari is so impossible, even though everyone who wasn't trying to be pedantic would understand you perfectly well (as they tend to grasp context), and saying "Qunari and Tal-Vashoth" as a group is too much, then say kossith. Most people won't know to what you're referring, but if talking specifically about the entire species is so incredibly important, then knock yourself out. What's so difficult to grasp?

Just don't be surprised if that causes confusion, as it's not a term we use for that in-game. When you select your race, it will say "Qunari" even though you're playing Tal-Vashoth and it will be described as such in the text. Nobody will be thrown who isn't trying to be.

Did you know our setting also doesn't have a separate name for the planet? Thedas is the name of the continent, and to most of the inhabitants that is the entire world. Is that wrong? Did you know "Earth" is just our word for "the ground under our feet"? Does that blow your mind?

I think I've said more than enough on this topic and it's time for me to bow out, as it's beginning to become annoying. The people who keep insisting this is a problem clearly want it to be one, so there's really not much more to be said.

Modifié par David Gaider, 02 octobre 2013 - 03:54 .

[Mary Kirby]

Chari wrote...

Quoting Rasaan "to call a thing by its name is to know its reason in the world. To call a thing falsely is to put out one’s own eyes.[/i]"[/i]
Qunari are literally the most unique and truly new DA race (that we know and is civilized) you've ever created and you don't have a common species name for it?..
EDIT. Cause, you know, elves, dwarves and humans belong to actual folklore for the most part
Eh, poor guys... I hope once linguistics and biology researchers branches of science appear in Thedas, they'll have one...

Rasaan's quote is precisely why the Qunari don't have names.  Qunari do not accept ideas of specific identity, and the concept is anathema to their culture. 

[Mary Kirby]

Chari wrote...

Still, the kossith kind of differ themselves from other races, don't they? Unless... can an elf become Ariqun or Arishok? Aren't the horned-giants still the majority and the most influental part of Qunari society? The core of it

Once they're part of the Qun, an elf or a human could become Ariqun, Arigena, or Arishok. This is somewhat less likely than a horned giant getting the job, if only because there are considerably more horned giants than any other kind of Qunari. 

[Mary Kirby]

In Exile wrote...

How would a Qunari view a Tal-Vasoth who happens to be the Inquisitor (or even a Grey Warden, if that could happen)? 

That person would suddenly have a "role" - a purpose - that seems to fit well with how the Qun attributes purposes to people. Would they still see you as a bas? Or a Basalit-An (sp)?

Qunari view the Tal-Vashoth in general very, very poorly. They typically see them as worse than bas.

[Allan Schumacher]

This topic again? People sure love to argue with the writers about whats cannon in the lore they wrote.

It's cool.  I agree with the sentiment David has with respect to "If you feel the need to define the term with Kossith (or anything else) for your own clarity that is fine.  It's just not how it behaves in game."

In the end, be respectful, recognize that some people may need extra clarification because they may not know of the term, and whatnot, and just be excellent to each other.