230 réponses à ce sujet

[Former_Fiend]

Star fury wrote...

Introducing tal-vashoth, non-qunari who can be qunari and other bull**** in DA2 was a bad idea. Not surprising it was all done in DA2.

...I know I shouldn't...

Aw, damnit.

Tal-vashoth and other races joining the Qun were all discussed(and in the former's case, featured) in Origins.

[Todd23]

Kossith is the only known name for the race, fact. When it began gaining popularity on these forums DG began trying to detur the use of it, to the point of even puting a passage in The World of Thedas that said people shouldn't use it. He claimed it was because people should use the word Qunari. That may be the case, or it may be that he intends to introduce a preferred name for the race in Inquisition. In either case, I still intend to use Kossith when talking about Kossith. I find it out right inappropriate to use the name of the religion that the majority of a race follows as a way to reffer to the race rather than simply using the actual name of the race. For example, I would never reffer to all white people as Christians.

Modifié par Todd23, 30 septembre 2013 - 07:48 .

[Han Shot First]

@Todd,

Do you refer to people of Jewish ancestry as Jews? What about the Christian population of Egypt? Do you refer to them as Copts? Like Qunari, both Jewish and Coptic can refer to an ethnic or religious group.

[fchopin]

Pseudocognition wrote...



thanks mike

in the spirit of keeping this discussion going forever, while he is CD its possible that he doesn't have as intimate a knowledge of the lore as the people who write it. So. Carry on!

I am getting more and more mixed up with what a Kossith is.

[Todd23]

Han Shot First wrote...

@Todd,

Do you refer to people of Jewish ancestry as Jews? What about the Christian population of Egypt? Do you refer to them as Copts? Like Qunari, both Jewish and Coptic can refer to an ethnic or religious group.

Being Jewish myself I can tell you there is a big difference.  No one who follows Judaism would tell you not to refer to someone who is only the race Jew and not the religion Jew as being Jewish (which Qunari have done in the past).  Even DG who is leading the "just call them qunari" movement has pointed out that it is not also the name for the race.  He has simply stated that pretty much everyone will understand what you mean if you refer to the race as being Qunari.  I'm simply helping people to know the more proper way to refer to just the race.

[Spectre slayer]

David Gaider wrote...
-snip-
... If you want to refer to the horned race, it's Qunari...
-snip-

"Kossith" is an antiquated term, not a technical one. It was used to describe the culture that predated the Qun. It may not have even been the name of a race at all. It's the equivalent of calling white people, "Occidental." A few members of the Qunari priesthood are going to recognize the word, but no one else in Thedas would know what the heck this term means.

Modern Qunari do not have a term for their race for the same reason that nobody in Thedas has a name for their planet. As far as they are concerned, the world consists of people and things-that-aren't-people. All other distinctions are unimportant. 

Other Thedosians do not draw distinctions between Those Tall Guys Who Sometimes Have Horns Who Follow the Qun and The Other Tall Guys who Sometimes Have Horns Who Don't. They are all, "Qunari" to the humans, elves, and dwarves.

http://social.biowar...3267/3#14904924

http://dgaider.tumbl...s-where-it-gets

http://dgaider.tumbl...-i-hate-how-the

We’ll call them Qunari. If we feel the need to distinguish from the norm, either in terms of race or religion, we’ll do so… and the only people who’ll be confused are those who enjoy overthinking it.

Modifié par Spectre slayer, 30 septembre 2013 - 12:50 .

[Iakus]

When referring to followers of the Qun, I use Qunari with a capital "Q"

When referring to the race of metallic skinned giants that might or might not have horns, I use qunari with lower-case "q"

[Chari]

iakus wrote...

When referring to followers of the Qun, I use Qunari with a capital "Q"

When referring to the race of metallic skinned giants that might or might not have horns, I use qunari with lower-case "q"

That would work for english... but no, let's say, Russian where we do not distinguish races and languages by captial or lower-case symbols. Same goes to a plenty of other languages
Which wouldn't be a problem, if the official Bioware translation did not follow the canon and made up words. But they don't, so...
We still need a name

[JerZey CJ]

iakus wrote...

When referring to followers of the Qun, I use Qunari with a capital "Q"

When referring to the race of metallic skinned giants that might or might not have horns, I use qunari with lower-case "q"

I have adopted this as well.




I don't suppose all those Dev tweets saying that the qunari are called "kossith" and then others saying that you shouldn't use the term are helping

[David Gaider]

The difficulty here is that the Qunari do not have a single word they use for their race. They have many words they use as identifiers. Overall it is simply "Qunari"-- which encompasses all followers of the Qun, which as far as they're concerned is everyone worth mentioning. And as far as people in the rest of Thedas are concerned, that is their racial name.

If there's a need to separate the Qunari who aren't members of their race, and "viddathari" isn't considered useful, an adjective is added (like "elven Qunari"). For members of their race which aren't followers of the Qun, it's "Tal-Vashoth".

Is this confusing? To some people who like having a handy identifier it is, but the Qunari aren't really interested in arranging their names to make things convenient for other cultures. Their names are exact classifications, and are incredibly important to them-- even Sten doesn't tell you the name that he uses among the Qunari. If you'll recall, he says that Sten is the name you may use because it'll be easier for you.

In that vein, if fans wish to use "kossith" as a racial identifier, you're free to do so. It's an old name for the Qunari, but one they no longer accept-- in-game, that is. So we'll never use it in the game, but if it makes it handier for you out of the game, by all means use it. Since it's not something we mention in the game, however, don't be surprised if few people know what the heck you're talking about. As I've mentioned before, the only time I get irritated is when hardcore fans scold people on the "proper" use of the word when the only proper use is the in-world one-- or when particular pedantic fans moan about how the lack of a proper racial name is confusing (and thus an error in the lore) when that's exactly what it's designed to be.

[Chari]

David Gaider wrote...

The difficulty here is that the Qunari do not have a single word they use for their race. They have many words they use as identifiers. Overall it is simply "Qunari"-- which encompasses all followers of the Qun, which as far as they're concerned is everyone worth mentioning. And as far as people in the rest of Thedas are concerned, that is their racial name.

If there's a need to separate the Qunari who aren't members of their race, and "viddathari" isn't considered useful, an adjective is added (like "elven Qunari"). For members of their race which aren't followers of the Qun, it's "Tal-Vashoth".

Is this confusing? To some people who like having a handy identifier it is, but the Qunari aren't really interested in arranging their names to make things convenient for other cultures. Their names are exact classifications, and are incredibly important to them-- even Sten doesn't tell you the name that he uses among the Qunari. If you'll recall, he says that Sten is the name you may use because it'll be easier for you.

In that vein, if fans wish to use "kossith" as a racial identifier, you're free to do so. It's an old name for the Qunari, but one they no longer accept-- in-game, that is. So we'll never use it in the game, but if it makes it handier for you out of the game, by all means use it. Since it's not something we mention in the game, however, don't be surprised if few people know what the heck you're talking about. As I've mentioned before, the only time I get irritated is when hardcore fans scold people on the "proper" use of the word when the only proper use is the in-world one-- or when particular pedantic fans moan about how the lack of a proper racial name is confusing (and thus an error in the lore) when that's exactly what it's designed to be.

But what if we want to discuss the kossith race as a whole - including qunari, tal-vashoth and kossiths who for some reason were brought up outside of both factions?
Without a name it's just... damn confusing

[Beerfish]

I'll stick with 'horned devils' for now.

[sky_captain]

Beerfish wrote...

I'll stick with 'horned devils' for now.

I say we start calling them furlings

[Iakus]

David Gaider wrote...

The difficulty here is that the Qunari do not have a single word they use for their race. They have many words they use as identifiers. Overall it is simply "Qunari"-- which encompasses all followers of the Qun, which as far as they're concerned is everyone worth mentioning. And as far as people in the rest of Thedas are concerned, that is their racial name.

If there's a need to separate the Qunari who aren't members of their race, and "viddathari" isn't considered useful, an adjective is added (like "elven Qunari"). For members of their race which aren't followers of the Qun, it's "Tal-Vashoth".

Is this confusing? To some people who like having a handy identifier it is, but the Qunari aren't really interested in arranging their names to make things convenient for other cultures. Their names are exact classifications, and are incredibly important to them-- even Sten doesn't tell you the name that he uses among the Qunari. If you'll recall, he says that Sten is the name you may use because it'll be easier for you.

In that vein, if fans wish to use "kossith" as a racial identifier, you're free to do so. It's an old name for the Qunari, but one they no longer accept-- in-game, that is. So we'll never use it in the game, but if it makes it handier for you out of the game, by all means use it. Since it's not something we mention in the game, however, don't be surprised if few people know what the heck you're talking about. As I've mentioned before, the only time I get irritated is when hardcore fans scold people on the "proper" use of the word when the only proper use is the in-world one-- or when particular pedantic fans moan about how the lack of a proper racial name is confusing (and thus an error in the lore) when that's exactly what it's designed to be.

I guess what bugs people is the lack of an umbrella term for the race of metallic-skinned giants which might or might not have horns and who likely but don't necessarilly follow the Qun.

I mean, we can call Merrill, Zevran, and Tallis "elves" and they'll understand the term and are accepted as such.  But they also identify as Dalish, Antivan, and Qunari, respectively.

Similarly, a human can be called Fereldan, Andrastrian, Tevinter, Chasind, etc.  But are all "human"

But when Sten is a Qunari, Maraas is not, Tallis is, etc, it does get confusing.  WHich is why I adopt the capital/lower-case distinction.

[WillPF363]

David Gaider wrote...



In that vein, if fans wish to use "kossith" as a racial identifier, you're free to do so. It's an old name for the Qunari, but one they no longer accept-- in-game, that is. So we'll never use it in the game, but if it makes it handier for you out of the game, by all means use it. Since it's not something we mention in the game, however, don't be surprised if few people know what the heck you're talking about. As I've mentioned before, the only time I get irritated is when hardcore fans scold people on the "proper" use of the word when the only proper use is the in-world one-- or when particular pedantic fans moan about how the lack of a proper racial name is confusing (and thus an error in the lore) when that's exactly what it's designed to be.

I agree it's very annoying when people give you the "I'm a better fan than you, here's why" lecture (that's how I think of it).  Oddly enough, I had to have the word Kossith explained to men and then, a few months later, I got a new lecture when another fan smugly assured me that I was wrong to use kossith as a racial identifier.  I got it coming and going!   Afterwards I saved a quote from Allan Schumacher where he says he hates when people do that, just in case I ever ran into that situation again.  I"ll be adding this quote to my file.  Thanks Mr. Gaider!

[David Gaider]

Chari wrote...
But what if we want to discuss the kossith race as a whole - including qunari, tal-vashoth and kossiths who for some reason were brought up outside of both factions?
Without a name it's just... damn confusing

Like I already said, if you want to use "kossith" out of game because you find it easier, that's fine. Just don't expect everyone to know what you're talking about, and don't scold them that it's the proper name for the race because it's not. We'll never use it.

It's confusing because that's exactly what it is. That's what the Qunari are by design. They have more exact words they use and don't see a need for a racial identifier-- and to everyone else in Thedas they're all simply Qunari (including the Tal-Vashoth). As I said.

[kinderschlager]

David Gaider wrote...

The difficulty here is that the Qunari do not have a single word they use for their race. They have many words they use as identifiers. Overall it is simply "Qunari"-- which encompasses all followers of the Qun, which as far as they're concerned is everyone worth mentioning. And as far as people in the rest of Thedas are concerned, that is their racial name.

If there's a need to separate the Qunari who aren't members of their race, and "viddathari" isn't considered useful, an adjective is added (like "elven Qunari"). For members of their race which aren't followers of the Qun, it's "Tal-Vashoth".

Is this confusing? To some people who like having a handy identifier it is, but the Qunari aren't really interested in arranging their names to make things convenient for other cultures. Their names are exact classifications, and are incredibly important to them-- even Sten doesn't tell you the name that he uses among the Qunari. If you'll recall, he says that Sten is the name you may use because it'll be easier for you.

In that vein, if fans wish to use "kossith" as a racial identifier, you're free to do so. ]It's an old name for the Qunari, but one they no longer accept-- in-game, that is.So we'll never use it in the game, but if it makes it handier for you out of the game, by all means use it. Since it's not something we mention in the game, however, don't be surprised if few people know what the heck you're talking about. As I've mentioned before, the only time I get irritated is when hardcore fans scold people on the "proper" use of the word when the only proper use is the in-world one-- or when particular pedantic fans moan about how the lack of a proper racial name is confusing (and thus an error in the lore) when that's exactly what it's designed to be.

could we find references to it in codex entries pertaining to the quanaris history?

(i know i won't get an answer, but i'm still curious)

(that's it, no more trying to highlight stuff, broke me post twice)

Modifié par kinderschlager, 30 septembre 2013 - 04:05 .

[Chari]

David Gaider wrote...

Chari wrote...
But what if we want to discuss the kossith race as a whole - including qunari, tal-vashoth and kossiths who for some reason were brought up outside of both factions?
Without a name it's just... damn confusing

Like I already said, if you want to use "kossith" out of game because you find it easier, that's fine. Just don't expect everyone to know what you're talking about, and don't scold them that it's the proper name for the race because it's not. We'll never use it.

It's confusing because that's exactly what it is. That's what the Qunari are by design. They have more exact words they use and don't see a need for a racial identifier-- and to everyone else in Thedas they're all simply Qunari (including the Tal-Vashoth). As I said.

It's just... it is a race. One of the only four available civilizations of Thedas which has been known for centures. And no language or  nation has made up their own name for it? Dwarven, elven... they do have different names for human, elves, dwarves, don't they? Or orlesian, eh, tevinter-ian?.. But I guess they don't have a name in these languages either?.. As if the whole world had some kind of gathering where htey agreed on not having a name for the kossith race
Even nothing colloquial like ox-men, or le corné/le Qunaré? Or, er, dorf-len?

Modifié par Chari, 30 septembre 2013 - 04:07 .

[David Gaider]

Chari wrote...
It's just... it is a race. One of the only four available civilizations of Thedas which has been known for centures. And no language or  nation has made up their own name for it? Dwarven, elven... they do have different names for human, elves, dwarves, don't they? Or orlesian, eh, tevinter-ian?.. But I guess they don't have a name in these languages either?.. As if the whole world had some kind of gathering where htey agreed on not having a name for the kossith race
Even nothing colloquial like ox-men, or le corné/le Qunaré? Or, er, dorf-len?

They call them Qunari. Everyone calls them Qunari. They call the Tal-Vashoth Qunari (which annoys Tal-Vashoth, but they wouldn't expect any more from foreigners than Sten does).

If they encounter an elf who's part of the Qun, first they'd call them an "elf". Maybe they'd say "elven follower of the Qun" if they knew that. If they heard them call themselves "Qunari" they'd wrinkle their noses in confusion, and maybe amend that to "elven Qunari".

It is not that difficult to wrap your head around, surely. Either way, these are all in-game terms. As I said, if you wish to use "kossith" out of game, that's fine-- but it is an out-of-game term only. It is not proper usage.

[Chari]

David Gaider wrote...

Chari wrote...
It's just... it is a race. One of the only four available civilizations of Thedas which has been known for centures. And no language or  nation has made up their own name for it? Dwarven, elven... they do have different names for human, elves, dwarves, don't they? Or orlesian, eh, tevinter-ian?.. But I guess they don't have a name in these languages either?.. As if the whole world had some kind of gathering where htey agreed on not having a name for the kossith race
Even nothing colloquial like ox-men, or le corné/le Qunaré? Or, er, dorf-len?

They call them Qunari. Everyone calls them Qunari. They call the Tal-Vashoth Qunari (which annoys Tal-Vashoth, but they wouldn't expect any more from foreigners than Sten does).

If they encounter an elf who's part of the Qun, first they'd call them an "elf". Maybe they'd say "elven follower of the Qun" if they knew that. If they heard them call themselves "Qunari" they'd wrinkle their noses in confusion, and maybe amend that to "elven Qunari".

It is not that difficult to wrap your head around, surely. Either way, these are all in-game terms. As I said, if you wish to use "kossith" out of game, that's fine-- but it is an out-of-game term only. It is not proper usage.

Hm, so kossith it is

[TheBlackAdder13]

Oxman it is then.

[Asdrubael Vect]

 David Gaider 

How our Kossith Grey Skinned Horned/Non-horned Giant Inquisitor(and Iron Bull) will call his/her race in game?

And why he/she will call him/herself that way?

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 30 septembre 2013 - 05:15 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Dark Korsar wrote...

 David Gaider 

How our Kossith Grey Skinned Horned/Non-horned Giant Inquisitor(and Iron Bull) will call his/her race in game?

And why he/she will call him/herself that way?

I suspect the answer is Tal Vashoth, unless he or she is still a follower of the Qun.

Edit: As to why? Because that is what he or she will be. If (s)he follows the Qun, (s)he will be Qunari. If (s)he does not follow the Qun, (s)he will be Tal Vashoth.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 30 septembre 2013 - 05:28 .

[Boycott Bioware]

I think there is no problem of Qunari Inquisitor name, because isn't they have no names?

Sten, Arvaraad, Arishok, Serabas...ect?

[fchopin]

Ok, Qunari it is then unless the game says different.