230 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Definitely.  In one case, I actually only learned of the distinction in the past few months, actually.

Because the naming convention is confusing, it's often difficult for outsiders (like me) to understand.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Because the naming convention is confusing, it's often difficult for outsiders (like me) to understand.

I think that kind of clarity is the best argument in favour of having an agreed upon name for the race that the forums like to reference as Kossith. Even if we can distinguish (based on context) whether one refers to a Qunari like Sten or a Qunari like Marras, it would be far easier to have different labels we can affix to each concept. It's why we have labels, after all. 

So while I understand what Bioware is doing in terms of having a single term like the Qunari - and I should emphasize that I do think it adds to the colour of the world in a significant way - it would be nice for there to be an agreed upon term we could use to refer to them. Even if it's just something that amounts to capital Q for the religion and lower case q for the race. 

[Dutchess]

David Gaider wrote...

Chari wrote...
But what if we want to discuss the kossith race as a whole - including qunari, tal-vashoth and kossiths who for some reason were brought up outside of both factions?
Without a name it's just... damn confusing

Like I already said, if you want to use "kossith" out of game because you find it easier, that's fine. Just don't expect everyone to know what you're talking about, and don't scold them that it's the proper name for the race because it's not. We'll never use it.

It's confusing because that's exactly what it is. That's what the Qunari are by design. They have more exact words they use and don't see a need for a racial identifier-- and to everyone else in Thedas they're all simply Qunari (including the Tal-Vashoth). As I said.

Then why does The World of Thedas repeatedly refer to the horned grey-skins as Kossith?

[Fredward]

Oh the anality. I wonder if there's a correlation between anality and a person's inability-to-deal/discomfort with vagueness.

[Quatre]

renjility wrote...
Then why does The World of Thedas repeatedly refer to the horned grey-skins as Kossith?

Does it really? I might be wrong, but I can only remember very few instances - and it always looked like the term was referring to the ancient pre-Qunari society.

[Dutchess]

Quatre04 wrote...

renjility wrote...
Then why does The World of Thedas repeatedly refer to the horned grey-skins as Kossith?

Does it really? I might be wrong, but I can only remember very few instances - and it always looked like the term was referring to the ancient pre-Qunari society.

I seem to recall that in the Race section of the book it refered to the Qunari/Tal-Vashoth/horned guys as Kossith. I paid extra attention to it, because I remembered previous debates about the Kossith/Qunari issue.

[leaguer of one]

Op. The ox men are call Qunari. The name is one of their race and religion...Like the Jewish.

[leaguer of one]

renjility wrote...
Then why does The World of Thedas repeatedly refer to the horned grey-skins as Kossith?

Because it's written in the perspective of a scholar who know that name. Even the qunari do not use it.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 01 octobre 2013 - 11:48 .

[Chari]

leaguer of one wrote...

Op. The ox men are call Qunari. The name is one of their race and religion...Like the Jewish.

Tal-vashoth are not Qunari. They're kossith/ox-men/dorflen

[esper]

renjility wrote...

Quatre04 wrote...

renjility wrote...
Then why does The World of Thedas repeatedly refer to the horned grey-skins as Kossith?

Does it really? I might be wrong, but I can only remember very few instances - and it always looked like the term was referring to the ancient pre-Qunari society.

I seem to recall that in the Race section of the book it refered to the Qunari/Tal-Vashoth/horned guys as Kossith. I paid extra attention to it, because I remembered previous debates about the Kossith/Qunari issue.

World of Thedas is really not that reliable anyway. Don't take it's words for gospel.

[Han Shot First]

Chari wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Op. The ox men are call Qunari. The name is one of their race and religion...Like the Jewish.

Tal-vashoth are not Qunari. They're kossith/ox-men/dorflen

The Tal-Vashoth are also Qunari.

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about Qunari being an ethnoreligious term. Qunari can refer to either the race or the religion (or both), and which depends on the context in which it is used.

[Iakus]

Han Shot First wrote...

Chari wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Op. The ox men are call Qunari. The name is one of their race and religion...Like the Jewish.

Tal-vashoth are not Qunari. They're kossith/ox-men/dorflen

The Tal-Vashoth are also Qunari.

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about Qunari being an ethnoreligious term. Qunari can refer to either the race or the religion (or both), and which depends on the context in which it is used.

I call Tal Vashoth qunari, not Qunari

Just as a Dalish is an elf, not an Elf.

[esper]

iakus wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Chari wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Op. The ox men are call Qunari. The name is one of their race and religion...Like the Jewish.

Tal-vashoth are not Qunari. They're kossith/ox-men/dorflen

The Tal-Vashoth are also Qunari.

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about Qunari being an ethnoreligious term. Qunari can refer to either the race or the religion (or both), and which depends on the context in which it is used.

I call Tal Vashoth qunari, not Qunari

Just as a Dalish is an elf, not an Elf.

I don't see the difference between elf and Elf.

We have dalish, city elves for the two separate groups and elves for the race. Which one is lower case and which one is upper case elf? Out off pure curiosity.

Anyway. I now just use Ox-men if I am in a bad mood and grey horned giants if I have space enough.

[Iakus]

esper wrote...

I don't see the difference between elf and Elf.

We have dalish, city elves for the two separate groups and elves for the race. Which one is lower case and which one is upper case elf? Out off pure curiosity.

Anyway. I now just use Ox-men if I am in a bad mood and grey horned giants if I have space enough.

Neither is upper case.  Some are Dalish. Some are Antivan.  Some are Orlesian.  Some are Tevinter.  Some are even Qunari.  But they're all elves

One could use "Elhven" but that's an archaic term unlikely to be recognized outside of the Dalish.

The problem with "Qunari" is that it's the same word for both race and culture.  So I capitalize the culture. to make the distinction.

So a Tal Vashoth is a qunari
The Inquistor can be a qunari
But a follower of teh Qun is Qunari be it human, elf, or qunari.

[Han Shot First]

Why not just call the Qunari race Horny Qunari? That will avoid confusion!

Oh wait...

[Sylvius the Mad]

leaguer of one wrote...

Op. The ox men are call Qunari. The name is one of their race and religion...Like the Jewish.

Exactly.

Members of the race and the followers of the religion are described using the same name, even though those two groups are not identical.

It's possible for Qunari (race) not to be Qunari (religion), and it's possible for Qunari (religion) not to be Qunari (race).

[esper]

iakus wrote...

esper wrote...

I don't see the difference between elf and Elf.

We have dalish, city elves for the two separate groups and elves for the race. Which one is lower case and which one is upper case elf? Out off pure curiosity.

Anyway. I now just use Ox-men if I am in a bad mood and grey horned giants if I have space enough.

Neither is upper case.  Some are Dalish. Some are Antivan.  Some are Orlesian.  Some are Tevinter.  Some are even Qunari.  But they're all elves

One could use "Elhven" but that's an archaic term unlikely to be recognized outside of the Dalish.

The problem with "Qunari" is that it's the same word for both race and culture.  So I capitalize the culture. to make the distinction.

So a Tal Vashoth is a qunari
The Inquistor can be a qunari
But a follower of teh Qun is Qunari be it human, elf, or qunari.

I see and thanks for explaining what you mean:lol:

[David Gaider]

Qistina wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
If I remember correctly, they identify themselves and each other by seniority or weapon of choice in such a circumstance.

Sten : I found this weapon, i wonder who it's belong to?
Sten : It belong to Sten
Sten : Which Sten?
Sten : Oh both of you found it, that weapon belong to me
Sten : Who are you?
Sten : Sten, of the Beresad
Sten : We are all Sten of the Beresad!

As I mentioned earlier, Sten in DAO gives you that name to use because he tells you his real name would be difficult for you to pronounce. Qunari names are long and have an exact meaning regarding their birth and station-- sort of like a SIN-- provided to them by the Tamassrans, and which are very important to them. One assumes they might have a shortened version that fellow Qunari who are familiar with them might use, but clearly Sten did not think giving you that was worthwhile. You are, effectively, calling him "soldier".

If you're assuming that Qunari would call each other that, then you are incorrect.

[Wulfram]

Han Shot First wrote...

The Tal-Vashoth are also Qunari.

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about Qunari being an ethnoreligious term. Qunari can refer to either the race or the religion (or both), and which depends on the context in which it is used.

Except, neither those who are Qunari by faith or Qunari by race would consider it an ethnoreligious term, but purely a religious one.  It might be common usage to treat it that way in the rest of Thedas, but that's down to (in universe) ignorance or laziness.

[Dutchess]

esper wrote...

renjility wrote...

Quatre04 wrote...

renjility wrote...
Then why does The World of Thedas repeatedly refer to the horned grey-skins as Kossith?

Does it really? I might be wrong, but I can only remember very few instances - and it always looked like the term was referring to the ancient pre-Qunari society.

I seem to recall that in the Race section of the book it refered to the Qunari/Tal-Vashoth/horned guys as Kossith. I paid extra attention to it, because I remembered previous debates about the Kossith/Qunari issue.

World of Thedas is really not that reliable anyway. Don't take it's words for gospel.

What on earth is its purpose supposed to be then? I guess that "ruthlessly fact checked" part in the introduction was bogus then. How nice.

[esper]

renjility wrote...

esper wrote...

renjility wrote...

Quatre04 wrote...

renjility wrote...
Then why does The World of Thedas repeatedly refer to the horned grey-skins as Kossith?

Does it really? I might be wrong, but I can only remember very few instances - and it always looked like the term was referring to the ancient pre-Qunari society.

I seem to recall that in the Race section of the book it refered to the Qunari/Tal-Vashoth/horned guys as Kossith. I paid extra attention to it, because I remembered previous debates about the Kossith/Qunari issue.

World of Thedas is really not that reliable anyway. Don't take it's words for gospel.

What on earth is its purpose supposed to be then? I guess that "ruthlessly fact checked" part in the introduction was bogus then. How nice.

Apparently a lot of people have found minor mistakes or things that just doesn't match up with the in game lore.

So take it as the same as the lore in game. A bunch of people who think they are right and properly also are 8 out of 10, but sometimes it is just not right. It is a bit hard to write a 100 percent right source matierial when in game lore is biased. How do you for example write about blood magic? Do you use the chantry beliefs? Tevinters's? Tevinter's official or the practical one? What about the belief they had before Andraste.

And even if it was ruthlessly checked it, the writers are still humans, mistakes happens.

How was kossith used in World of Thedas anyway?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wulfram wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

The Tal-Vashoth are also Qunari.

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about Qunari being an ethnoreligious term. Qunari can refer to either the race or the religion (or both), and which depends on the context in which it is used.

Except, neither those who are Qunari by faith or Qunari by race would consider it an ethnoreligious term, but purely a religious one.

Yes, but non-Qunari use it primarily as a race descriptor, not a religious term.

[Han Shot First]

Wulfram wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

The Tal-Vashoth are also Qunari.

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about Qunari being an ethnoreligious term. Qunari can refer to either the race or the religion (or both), and which depends on the context in which it is used.

Except, neither those who are Qunari by faith or Qunari by race would consider it an ethnoreligious term, but purely a religious one.  It might be common usage to treat it that way in the rest of Thedas, but that's down to (in universe) ignorance or laziness.

I like it however, because it is a bit realistic.

During the Middle Ages for example Europeans often referred to all Muslims as 'Saracens' regardless of nationality (originally it just referred to a single tribe of Arab desert nomads), and Muslims often referred to all Europeans as the Franj regardless of their actual nationality. (Franj being Arabic for Franks, a.k.a. the French)

Exonyms quite often are inexact or even technically incorrect.

[Quatre]

renjility wrote...
I seem to recall that in the Race section of the book it refered to the Qunari/Tal-Vashoth/horned guys as Kossith. I paid extra attention to it, because I remembered previous debates about the Kossith/Qunari issue.

Well, the text states:

"The horned race's ancient name is "kossith". This term is not widely used or even widely known outside scholarly circles. Qunari leadership do not recognize even the concept of kossith and few if any rank and file Qunari are aware of the word. [...] A person is either Qunari or not Qunari, and because the Qunari have practiced selective breeding for thousands of years, no one can be certain what the original kossith looked like."

(Dragon Age: The World of Thedas, page 40-41)


"There was a time when the kossith race prayed to animist gods. [...] Then came Ashkaari Koslun, a great thinker whose teachings molded the kossith into the godless, disciplined Qunari."

(TWoT, page 127)


It doesn't look like the term refers to today's Qunari or Tal-Vashoth.