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[leaguer of one]

Chari wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Op. The ox men are call Qunari. The name is one of their race and religion...Like the Jewish.

Tal-vashoth are not Qunari. They're kossith/ox-men/dorflen

No, they are qunari. They are qunari wih an additional name to call them. Think of it like the naming of cars : the honda civic and the Honda accord. They are both honda's but they still have different names.

[Han Shot First]

Quatre04 wrote...

renjility wrote...
I seem to recall that in the Race section of the book it refered to the Qunari/Tal-Vashoth/horned guys as Kossith. I paid extra attention to it, because I remembered previous debates about the Kossith/Qunari issue.

Well, the text states:

"The horned race's ancient name is "kossith". This term is not widely used or even widely known outside scholarly circles. Qunari leadership do not recognize even the concept of kossith and few if any rank and file Qunari are aware of the word. [...] A person is either Qunari or not Qunari, and because the Qunari have practiced selective breeding for thousands of years, no one can be certain what the original kossith looked like."

(Dragon Age: The World of Thedas, page 40-41)


"There was a time when the kossith race prayed to animist gods. [...] Then came Ashkaari Koslun, a great thinker whose teachings molded the kossith into the godless, disciplined Qunari."

(TWoT, page 127)


It doesn't look like the term refers to today's Qunari or Tal-Vashoth.

From that passage it seems like using the term Kossith for the Qunari would be a bit like using Gaul to refer to a modern Frenchman or Iberian to refer to someone from Spain.

[David Gaider]

Quatre04 wrote...
Well, the text states:

"The horned race's ancient name is "kossith". This term is not widely used or even widely known outside scholarly circles. Qunari leadership do not recognize even the concept of kossith and few if any rank and file Qunari are aware of the word. [...] A person is either Qunari or not Qunari, and because the Qunari have practiced selective breeding for thousands of years, no one can be certain what the original kossith looked like."

(Dragon Age: The World of Thedas, page 40-41)


"There was a time when the kossith race prayed to animist gods. [...] Then came Ashkaari Koslun, a great thinker whose teachings molded the kossith into the godless, disciplined Qunari."

(TWoT, page 127)


It doesn't look like the term refers to today's Qunari or Tal-Vashoth.

Indeed.

If one says "but the lorebook mentions the word 'kossith'!" then the answer has to be "yes-- perhaps you should try reading it."

[leaguer of one]

Han Shot First wrote...

Quatre04 wrote...

renjility wrote...
I seem to recall that in the Race section of the book it refered to the Qunari/Tal-Vashoth/horned guys as Kossith. I paid extra attention to it, because I remembered previous debates about the Kossith/Qunari issue.

Well, the text states:

"The horned race's ancient name is "kossith". This term is not widely used or even widely known outside scholarly circles. Qunari leadership do not recognize even the concept of kossith and few if any rank and file Qunari are aware of the word. [...] A person is either Qunari or not Qunari, and because the Qunari have practiced selective breeding for thousands of years, no one can be certain what the original kossith looked like."

(Dragon Age: The World of Thedas, page 40-41)


"There was a time when the kossith race prayed to animist gods. [...] Then came Ashkaari Koslun, a great thinker whose teachings molded the kossith into the godless, disciplined Qunari."

(TWoT, page 127)


It doesn't look like the term refers to today's Qunari or Tal-Vashoth.

From that passage it seems like using the term Kossith for the Qunari would be a bit like using Gaul to refer to a modern Frenchman or Iberian to refer to someone from Spain.

I said that a billion times. Or calling people from  northern China "Wei".

[Wulfram]

Han Shot First wrote...

I like it however, because it is a bit realistic.

During the Middle Ages for example Europeans often referred to all Muslims as 'Saracens' regardless of nationality (originally it just referred to a single tribe of Arab desert nomads), and Muslims often referred to all Europeans as the Franj regardless of their actual nationality. (Franj being Arabic for Franks, a.k.a. the French)

Exonyms quite often are inexact or even technically incorrect.

True.  But anyone who talked like that now I'd look askance at, and wonder if they were a bit racist.  Which is perhaps part of my reluctance to adopt that sort of terminology even for a fictional race.

And I can't see your Brother Genitivi's of the world being content with such inaccurate use of language.  Or indeed anyone in regular contact with someone like the Inquisitor.

[Iakus]

Wulfram wrote...

True.  But anyone who talked like that now I'd look askance at, and wonder if they were a bit racist.  Which is perhaps part of my reluctance to adopt that sort of terminology even for a fictional race.

"You be careful out among them English. "

[Sylvius the Mad]

Han Shot First wrote...

I like it however, because it is a bit realistic.

During the Middle Ages for example Europeans often referred to all Muslims as 'Saracens' regardless of nationality (originally it just referred to a single tribe of Arab desert nomads), and Muslims often referred to all Europeans as the Franj regardless of their actual nationality. (Franj being Arabic for Franks, a.k.a. the French)

Exonyms quite often are inexact or even technically incorrect.

Like how Europeans referred to the invading Mongols as Tartars.

The word "barbarian" is also very useful.  Originally, the word described anyone who didn't speak Greek, but modern usage is very different.

[MichaelStuart]

Out of curiosity.
If kept calling followers of the Qun "Tal-Vashoth" what would happen?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Out of curiosity.
If kept calling followers of the Qun "Tal-Vashoth" what would happen?

Past a certain point, they'd either snap and try to strangle you, or snap and drag you to be re-educated.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

leaguer of one wrote...

Chari wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Op. The ox men are call Qunari. The name is one of their race and religion...Like the Jewish.

Tal-vashoth are not Qunari. They're kossith/ox-men/dorflen

No, they are qunari. They are qunari wih an additional name to call them. Think of it like the naming of cars : the honda civic and the Honda accord. They are both honda's but they still have different names.

I don't think so. Every Tal'Vashoth we've met has rejected being called Qunari and vice versa.

[MisanthropePrime]

I'll be honest, I don't get the writers' resistance to the fans' desire for precision. Qunari is the only time in the setting you guys use "culture" and "biological race" simultaneously. Other times, you have things like "Ferelden" or "Orzammar" or "Dalish" to describe cultures, and then words like "human", "dwarf" and "elf" for species. But when we ask for the same thing for the Qunari, I find a strange hostility coming from the writers, and I'm not quite sure why. What's with this strange double standard?

[Fredward]

David Gaider wrote...
As I mentioned earlier, Sten in DAO gives you that name to use because he tells you his real name would be difficult for you to pronounce. Qunari names are long and have an exact meaning regarding their birth and station-- sort of like a SIN-- provided to them by the Tamassrans, and which are very important to them. One assumes they might have a shortened version that fellow Qunari who are familiar with them might use, but clearly Sten did not think giving you that was worthwhile. You are, effectively, calling him "soldier".

If you're assuming that Qunari would call each other that, then you are incorrect.

Why does this idea sound so familiar? I swear I've read the idea of being named after your station or "role" somewhere before. By the way I'm not being ****y or sarcastic here, I'm genuinely curious.

[Cainhurst Crow]

So qunari real names are sorta like salarian names eh? Where their names are actually their homeworld, nation, city, district, clan name and given name.

Like how that one npc Anoleis's real name was Rannadril Ghan Swa Fulsoom Karaten Narr Eadi Bel Anoleis.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 01 octobre 2013 - 09:27 .

[Auras_Mendalla]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

It's a race, and it's a religion.  And the two groups don't overlap perfectly.  Some members of the race don't belong to the religion, and some members of the religion don't belong to the race.  And the two groups are labelled using exactly the same word.

This has actually popped up in Doctor Who of all places with the Silence subplot. At first it's just assumed that the race are the Silence, but they later blatantly state that the Silence is a religion. No onscreen name is ever given for the race other than "Silence" and an individual is called a Silent.

The point is that this is not uncommon in modern fiction and not that hard to grasp once you know the ground rules. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Han Shot First wrote...

Quatre04 wrote...

A person is either Qunari or not Qunari, and because the Qunari have practiced selective breeding for thousands of years, no one can be certain what the original kossith looked like."

(Dragon Age: The World of Thedas, page 40-41)


[/i](TWoT, page 127)


It doesn't look like the term refers to today's Qunari or Tal-Vashoth.

From that passage it seems like using the term Kossith for the Qunari would be a bit like using Gaul to refer to a modern Frenchman or Iberian to refer to someone from Spain.

Yes, but...they are still of the human species, whatever their nationality or creed.

I mean, we can practise selective breeding on poodles and labradors all we like, but the end result is still a dog.

Assuming the kerfuffle about 'kossith' is due to selective interspecial breeding, such that the species no longer exists in its pure state (apparently), then...well, I suppose we start calling them part kossith, just as there are part elves and part dwarves.

Problem solved.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 02 octobre 2013 - 03:29 .

[Taura-Tierno]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

I'll be honest, I don't get the writers' resistance to the fans' desire for precision. Qunari is the only time in the setting you guys use "culture" and "biological race" simultaneously. Other times, you have things like "Ferelden" or "Orzammar" or "Dalish" to describe cultures, and then words like "human", "dwarf" and "elf" for species. But when we ask for the same thing for the Qunari, I find a strange hostility coming from the writers, and I'm not quite sure why. What's with this strange double standard?

I don't see how it's a double standard to make different cultures and races treated differently in terms of how they self-identify. 

[Quatre]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Yes, but...they are still of the human species, whatever their nationality or creed.

I mean, we can practise selective breeding on poodles and labradors all we like, but the end result is still a dog.

Assuming the kerfuffle about 'kossith' is due to selective interspecial breeding, such that the species no longer exists in its pure state (apparently), then...well, I suppose we start calling them part kossith, just as there are part elves and part dwarves.

Problem solved.

But you wouldn't call humans Neanderthals - or ****** erectus, would you?

It seems like selective breeding changed the kossith race quite a bit.

Modifié par Quatre04, 02 octobre 2013 - 12:17 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Quatre04 wrote...
But you wouldn't call humans Neanderthals - or ****** erectus, would you?

No, but mainly because I know we're called humans.

What would be the alternative? Christians? Muslims? Athiests? In some parts of the world I'd be shot for assuming someone's religious standing, or lack thereof. Religion's such a touchy subject in this day and age it probably contributes to people seeking a name for the species that has no other connotations, but is more...hrm...palatable(?) than 'oxmen'.

It seems like selective breeding changed the kossith race quite a bit.

If they don't even remember what kossith looked like, it's hard to say how much or how little they've truly changed....

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 02 octobre 2013 - 02:18 .

[mousestalker]

Why don't we all agree to call them (the race) the 'Uplifted Moose'?

[Chari]

leaguer of one wrote...

Chari wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Op. The ox men are call Qunari. The name is one of their race and religion...Like the Jewish.

Tal-vashoth are not Qunari. They're kossith/ox-men/dorflen

No, they are qunari. They are qunari wih an additional name to call them. Think of it like the naming of cars : the honda civic and the Honda accord. They are both honda's but they still have different names.

A qunari is literally "a person of qun". Ari stands for person, Qun is... qun

[In Exile]

I wonder if the Kossith looked more human, given the thousands of years of selective breeding. Or hornless (given the value placed on that).

[David Gaider]

Chari wrote...
A qunari is literally "a person of qun". Ari stands for person, Qun is... qun

The Qunari are aware of this, as are Tal-Vashoth.

The rest of the people in Thedas not so much. The majority of fans also not so much.

Also, the issue is that both the Qunari and Tal-Vashoth don't accept a racial name, and wouldn't identify as "kossith". As I've said, if you wish to use kossith out of game because you feel a burning need to talk about the race as a blanket term and adjectives are anathema to you, then go ahead. But that's not the in-game lore, it's not what the Qunari and Tal-Vashoth would use, and most people are still not going to know what you mean since most of them are like Thedosians and have no issue with "Qunari" meaning both the race and the culture.

If your assertion is that the in-game lore is wrong because it doesn't lend itself to being easily discussed out-of-game, then I don't really have much to say. Sorry.

MisanthropePrime wrote...
I'll be honest, I don't get the writers' resistance to the fans' desire for precision. Qunari is the only time in the setting you guys use "culture" and "biological race" simultaneously. Other times, you have things like "Ferelden" or "Orzammar" or "Dalish" to describe cultures, and then words like "human", "dwarf" and "elf" for species. But when we ask for the same thing for the Qunari, I find a strange hostility coming from the writers, and I'm not quite sure why. What's with this strange double standard?

Double standard? Because the Qunari are different than the other cultures, or because we're not interested in changing the in-game lore in order to satisfy an out-of-game desire for a word which doesn't exist in-game? I've consistently said fans are free to use the antiquated word if they wish-- but it's not what we'll use, and it's not the correct term. If either of those things are "double standards", then I think your own definitions need some work.

Modifié par David Gaider, 02 octobre 2013 - 02:59 .

[Quatre]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
No, but mainly because I know we're called humans.

Which makes the difference: The Qunari hardly know anything about the concept of kossith.

What would be the alternative? Christians? Muslims? Athiests? In some parts of the world I'd be shot for assuming someone's religious standing, or lack thereof. Religion's such a touchy subject in this day and age it probably contributes to people seeking a name for the species that has no other connotations, but is more...hrm...palatable(?) than 'oxmen'.

True. But then the Qunari live in Thedas and not in our world. Since we accept that they're a fictional race, we could also accept that they have certain ideas of race, culture and religion, couldn't we?

If they don't even remember what kossith looked like, it's hard to say how much or how little they've truly changed....

You're right ... but on the other hand this aspect was noteworthy enough to be mentioned in the book. That's why I'd assume that there was at least some change.

Modifié par Quatre04, 02 octobre 2013 - 03:16 .

[Nefla]

Really now, if someone says they like Qunari or that their inquisitor will be Qunari or that Qunari need more variance in looks, no one is going to be confused as to what they mean. If I want to talk about the race but not following the Qun its Tal'Vashoth. This is in the games. If I'm talking about the more rarely seen other species convert then I will say elf convert, etc...or Vidathari. It takes zero additional effort and everyone will know what I mean (assuming they play the games and aren't just a random person on the street). Kossith isn't used anywhere in the game, the writers have said it's incorrect to use it and even most Qunari don't know the word so why insist on using it and then "correct" people into using it when they previously only used legitimate, in-game terms. We all used Qunari before with no problem and no confusion so please stop being hipsters about your secret code word.

Modifié par Nefla, 02 octobre 2013 - 03:31 .

[Chari]

Nefla wrote...

Really now, if someone says they like Qunari or that their inquisitor will be Qunari or that Qunari need more variance in looks, no one is going to be confused as to what they mean. If I want to talk about the race but not following the Qun its Tal'Vashoth. This is in the games. If I'm talking about the more rarely seen other species convert then I will say elf convert, etc...or Vidathari. It takes zero additional effort and everyone will know what I mean (assuming they play the games and aren't just a random person on the street). Kossith isn't used anywhere in the game, the writers have said it's incorrect to use it and even most Qunari don't know the word so why insist on using it and then "correct" people into using it when they previously only used legitimate, in-game terms. We all used Qunari before with no problem and no confusion so please stop being hipsters about your secret code word.

And what if I want to talk about both tal-vashoth and qunari as species XD? No viddathari, just species, because tal-vashoths are not qunari and qunari are not tal-vashoths...