230 réponses à ce sujet

[Nefla]

Chari wrote...

Nefla wrote...

Really now, if someone says they like Qunari or that their inquisitor will be Qunari or that Qunari need more variance in looks, no one is going to be confused as to what they mean. If I want to talk about the race but not following the Qun its Tal'Vashoth. This is in the games. If I'm talking about the more rarely seen other species convert then I will say elf convert, etc...or Vidathari. It takes zero additional effort and everyone will know what I mean (assuming they play the games and aren't just a random person on the street). Kossith isn't used anywhere in the game, the writers have said it's incorrect to use it and even most Qunari don't know the word so why insist on using it and then "correct" people into using it when they previously only used legitimate, in-game terms. We all used Qunari before with no problem and no confusion so please stop being hipsters about your secret code word.

And what if I want to talk about both tal-vashoth and qunari as species XD? No viddathari, just species, because tal-vashoths are not qunari and qunari are not tal-vashoths...

The same way you are doing now, with the word "and."

[Chari]

David Gaider wrote...

Chari wrote...
A qunari is literally "a person of qun". Ari stands for person, Qun is... qun

The Qunari are aware of this, as are Tal-Vashoth.

The rest of the people in Thedas not so much. The majority of fans also not so much.

Also, the issue is that both the Qunari and Tal-Vashoth don't accept a racial name, and wouldn't identify as "kossith". As I've said, if you wish to use kossith out of game because you feel a burning need to talk about the race as a blanket term and adjectives are anathema to you, then go ahead. But that's not the in-game lore, it's not what the Qunari and Tal-Vashoth would use, and most people are still not going to know what you mean since most of them are like Thedosians and have no issue with "Qunari" meaning both the race and the culture.

If your assertion is that the in-game lore is wrong because it doesn't lend itself to being easily discussed out-of-game, then I don't really have much to say. Sorry.

MisanthropePrime wrote...
I'll be honest, I don't get the writers' resistance to the fans' desire for precision. Qunari is the only time in the setting you guys use "culture" and "biological race" simultaneously. Other times, you have things like "Ferelden" or "Orzammar" or "Dalish" to describe cultures, and then words like "human", "dwarf" and "elf" for species. But when we ask for the same thing for the Qunari, I find a strange hostility coming from the writers, and I'm not quite sure why. What's with this strange double standard?

Double standard? Because the Qunari are different than the other cultures, or because we're not interested in changing the in-game lore in order to satisfy an out-of-game desire for a word which doesn't exist in-game? I've consistently said fans are free to use the antiquated word if they wish-- but it's not what we'll use, and it's not the correct term. If either of those things are "double standards", then I think your own definitions need some work.

Quoting Rasaan "to call a thing by its name is to know its reason in the world. To call a thing falsely is to put out one’s own eyes.[/i]"[/i]
Qunari are literally the most unique and truly new DA race (that we know and is civilized) you've ever created and you don't have a common species name for it?..
EDIT. Cause, you know, elves, dwarves and humans belong to actual folklore for the most part
Eh, poor guys... I hope once linguistics and biology researchers branches of science appear in Thedas, they'll have one...

Modifié par Chari, 02 octobre 2013 - 03:49 .

[Chari]

Nefla wrote...

Chari wrote...

Nefla wrote...

Really now, if someone says they like Qunari or that their inquisitor will be Qunari or that Qunari need more variance in looks, no one is going to be confused as to what they mean. If I want to talk about the race but not following the Qun its Tal'Vashoth. This is in the games. If I'm talking about the more rarely seen other species convert then I will say elf convert, etc...or Vidathari. It takes zero additional effort and everyone will know what I mean (assuming they play the games and aren't just a random person on the street). Kossith isn't used anywhere in the game, the writers have said it's incorrect to use it and even most Qunari don't know the word so why insist on using it and then "correct" people into using it when they previously only used legitimate, in-game terms. We all used Qunari before with no problem and no confusion so please stop being hipsters about your secret code word.

And what if I want to talk about both tal-vashoth and qunari as species XD? No viddathari, just species, because tal-vashoths are not qunari and qunari are not tal-vashoths...

The same way you are doing now, with the word "and."

Too long. A combination of two words is a maximum for any species name (unless we talk latin or more specific species names). Besides, both qunari and tal-vashoth can be elves, dwarves, humans... So...
I'll stick with kossith

[David Gaider]

Chari wrote...
And what if I want to talk about both tal-vashoth and qunari as species XD? No viddathari, just species, because tal-vashoths are not qunari and qunari are not tal-vashoths...

If saying Qunari is so impossible, even though everyone who wasn't trying to be pedantic would understand you perfectly well (as they tend to grasp context), and saying "Qunari and Tal-Vashoth" as a group is too much, then say kossith. Most people won't know to what you're referring, but if talking specifically about the entire species is so incredibly important, then knock yourself out. What's so difficult to grasp?

Just don't be surprised if that causes confusion, as it's not a term we use for that in-game. When you select your race, it will say "Qunari" even though you're playing Tal-Vashoth and it will be described as such in the text. Nobody will be thrown who isn't trying to be.

Did you know our setting also doesn't have a separate name for the planet? Thedas is the name of the continent, and to most of the inhabitants that is the entire world. Is that wrong? Did you know "Earth" is just our word for "the ground under our feet"? Does that blow your mind?

I think I've said more than enough on this topic and it's time for me to bow out, as it's beginning to become annoying. The people who keep insisting this is a problem clearly want it to be one, so there's really not much more to be said.

Modifié par David Gaider, 02 octobre 2013 - 03:54 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Well done guys. You're 2 to zero in making david gaider throw up his hands and give up when talking about qunari.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 02 octobre 2013 - 04:00 .

[Chari]

David Gaider wrote...

Chari wrote...
And what if I want to talk about both tal-vashoth and qunari as species XD? No viddathari, just species, because tal-vashoths are not qunari and qunari are not tal-vashoths...

If saying Qunari is so impossible, even though everyone who wasn't trying to be pedantic would understand you perfectly well (as they tend to grasp context), and saying "Qunari and Tal-Vashoth" as a group is too much, then say kossith. Most people won't know to what you're referring, but if talking specifically about the entire species is so incredibly important, then knock yourself out. What's so difficult to grasp?

Just don't be surprised if that causes confusion, as it's not a term we use for that in-game. When you select your race, it will say "Qunari" even though you're playing Tal-Vashoth and it will be described as such in the text. Nobody will be thrown who isn't trying to be.

Did you know our setting also doesn't have a separate name for the planet? Thedas is the name of the continent, and to most of the inhabitants that is the entire world. Is that wrong? Did you know "Earth" is just our word for "the ground under our feet"? Does that blow your mind?

I think I've said more than enough on this topic and it's time for me to bow out, as it's beginning to become annoying. The people who keep insisting this is a problem clearly want it to be one, so there's really not much more to be said.

Yeah, I'm well aware. This is mostly because you still build the world and right now focus only on the Thedas part of it, right? Or the interviews said so, if I remember correctly
Words have meaning, that's their whole purpose, if all these years of studying linguistics taught me anything

Whatever you feel like :3 Well, I'll stick with kossith anyway

[Mary Kirby]

Chari wrote...

Quoting Rasaan "to call a thing by its name is to know its reason in the world. To call a thing falsely is to put out one’s own eyes.[/i]"[/i]
Qunari are literally the most unique and truly new DA race (that we know and is civilized) you've ever created and you don't have a common species name for it?..
EDIT. Cause, you know, elves, dwarves and humans belong to actual folklore for the most part
Eh, poor guys... I hope once linguistics and biology researchers branches of science appear in Thedas, they'll have one...

Rasaan's quote is precisely why the Qunari don't have names.  Qunari do not accept ideas of specific identity, and the concept is anathema to their culture. 

[In Exile]

Mary Kirby wrote...
Rasaan's quote is precisely why the Qunari don't have names.  Qunari do not accept ideas of specific identity, and the concept is anathema to their culture. 

How would a Qunari view a Tal-Vasoth who happens to be the Inquisitor (or even a Grey Warden, if that could happen)? 

That person would suddenly have a "role" - a purpose - that seems to fit well with how the Qun attributes purposes to people. Would they still see you as a bas? Or a Basalit-An (sp)?

Modifié par In Exile, 02 octobre 2013 - 04:18 .

[Chari]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Chari wrote...

Quoting Rasaan "to call a thing by its name is to know its reason in the world. To call a thing falsely is to put out one’s own eyes.[/i]"[/i]
Qunari are literally the most unique and truly new DA race (that we know and is civilized) you've ever created and you don't have a common species name for it?..
EDIT. Cause, you know, elves, dwarves and humans belong to actual folklore for the most part
Eh, poor guys... I hope once linguistics and biology researchers branches of science appear in Thedas, they'll have one...

Rasaan's quote is precisely why the Qunari don't have names.  Qunari do not accept ideas of specific identity, and the concept is anathema to their culture. 

Still, the kossith kind of differ themselves from other races, don't they? Unless... can an elf become Ariqun or Arishok? Aren't the horned-giants still the majority and the most influental part of Qunari society? The core of it

[Mary Kirby]

Chari wrote...

Still, the kossith kind of differ themselves from other races, don't they? Unless... can an elf become Ariqun or Arishok? Aren't the horned-giants still the majority and the most influental part of Qunari society? The core of it

Once they're part of the Qun, an elf or a human could become Ariqun, Arigena, or Arishok. This is somewhat less likely than a horned giant getting the job, if only because there are considerably more horned giants than any other kind of Qunari. 

[Mary Kirby]

In Exile wrote...

How would a Qunari view a Tal-Vasoth who happens to be the Inquisitor (or even a Grey Warden, if that could happen)? 

That person would suddenly have a "role" - a purpose - that seems to fit well with how the Qun attributes purposes to people. Would they still see you as a bas? Or a Basalit-An (sp)?

Qunari view the Tal-Vashoth in general very, very poorly. They typically see them as worse than bas.

[Chari]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Chari wrote...

Still, the kossith kind of differ themselves from other races, don't they? Unless... can an elf become Ariqun or Arishok? Aren't the horned-giants still the majority and the most influental part of Qunari society? The core of it

Once they're part of the Qun, an elf or a human could become Ariqun, Arigena, or Arishok. This is somewhat less likely than a horned giant getting the job, if only because there are considerably more horned giants than any other kind of Qunari. 

Hm... unintentional biological drive of any race to look for a better place in the sun, I guess... 

[Anzer]

Alright, I've read through this topic and have come to a conclusion: There are a lot of stubborn pedants in this thread.

[Iakus]

In Exile wrote...

How would a Qunari view a Tal-Vasoth who happens to be the Inquisitor (or even a Grey Warden, if that could happen)? 

That person would suddenly have a "role" - a purpose - that seems to fit well with how the Qun attributes purposes to people. Would they still see you as a bas? Or a Basalit-An (sp)?

Well it seems they view the Qun pretty much as an organism and the Qunari as parts of that organism's body.  A Tal Vashoth, even one that has found a purpose outside the Qun, would be a foreign element, possibly dangerous to the Qun.

Actually, likely dangerous, as Tal Vashoth were part of the Qun once and rejected it.  They'd be like unto a potential infection or a cancer to the Qun.

[Iakus]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Well done guys. You're 2 to zero in making david gaider throw up his hands and give up when talking about qunari.

I hope Mr Gaider doesn't take too much offense.  Some of us ask questions not to be difficult, but because we want to better understand the Qunari (and the qunari) and how they fit into Thedas.

[NoMad2011]

Well, if I understand it correctly the point was to know precisely the correct use of terms) I thoought that's a good thing - people being THAT MUCH interested in world. I admit, pedants tend to push too much, but we had a fan's curiosity here, not pedantry. Or, it seemed so to me)))

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think BioWare has done something that's really interesting, here, both semantically and ontologically.

The only really cause for the confusion, here, is that the players are primarily exposed to in-universe perspectives of the meanings of these words, and the two most prominent of those perspectives are incompatible.

But the the players should not then jump to the conclusion that BioWare has made a mistake. To do so requires unfounded assumptions about how words and meaning work.

[Trolldrool]

To be honest, the fact that neither the Qunari or the Tal-Vashoth (you all know I mean the horned giants) have a name for their species just make them alien and difficult to relate to. And that's what makes them so amazingly fascinating as a new fantasy race. The easier it is to relate to what is supposedly meant to be a new species with a culture that clashes with our own, the less it actually does so.

Modifié par Trolldrool, 02 octobre 2013 - 06:33 .

[Nefla]

Go up to any random person buying DA:I at GameStop or another store and tell them you're going to play as a Kossith. There is a 99.9% chance they won't know what you're talking about. Tell them you will play Qunari and if they've played either of the other games they will know right away what you mean. Kossith creates more confusion and not less. The stubborn pointless attitude of rejecting what the lead writer himself is telling you just so you can feel like you're right and have special knowledge just makes you a hipster.

No one is going to use "Qunari" to include Vidathari converts if they're talking about the Qunari race. "I wonder if Qunari can have babies with other races" that's crystal clear and doesn't need a special word.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I think BioWare has done something that's really interesting, here, both semantically and ontologically.

The only really cause for the confusion, here, is that the players are primarily exposed to in-universe perspectives of the meanings of these words, and the two most prominent of those perspectives are incompatible.

But the the players should not then jump to the conclusion that BioWare has made a mistake. To do so requires unfounded assumptions about how words and meaning work.

It may also be an unfounded assumption that the Bioware team did this intentionally at all.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I think BioWare has done something that's really interesting, here, both semantically and ontologically.

The only really cause for the confusion, here, is that the players are primarily exposed to in-universe perspectives of the meanings of these words, and the two most prominent of those perspectives are incompatible.

But the the players should not then jump to the conclusion that BioWare has made a mistake. To do so requires unfounded assumptions about how words and meaning work.

It may also be an unfounded assumption that the Bioware team did this intentionally at all.

It doesn't matter whether they did it intentionally.  They did it.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I think BioWare has done something that's really interesting, here, both semantically and ontologically.

The only really cause for the confusion, here, is that the players are primarily exposed to in-universe perspectives of the meanings of these words, and the two most prominent of those perspectives are incompatible.

But the the players should not then jump to the conclusion that BioWare has made a mistake. To do so requires unfounded assumptions about how words and meaning work.

It may also be an unfounded assumption that the Bioware team did this intentionally at all.

It doesn't matter whether they did it intentionally.  They did it.

I, personally, would only find it interesting if it was intentional in this case. Because if it was an oversight, the end result becomes little more than a communication nuisance. If it was intentional, that at least could be intriguing, but only if it was born out of of intent instead of ineffective design. 

[Herr Uhl]

Chari wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Chari wrote...

Still, the kossith kind of differ themselves from other races, don't they? Unless... can an elf become Ariqun or Arishok? Aren't the horned-giants still the majority and the most influental part of Qunari society? The core of it

Once they're part of the Qun, an elf or a human could become Ariqun, Arigena, or Arishok. This is somewhat less likely than a horned giant getting the job, if only because there are considerably more horned giants than any other kind of Qunari. 

Hm... unintentional biological drive of any race to look for a better place in the sun, I guess... 

What?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I, personally, would only find it interesting if it was intentional in this case. Because if it was an oversight, the end result becomes little more than a communication nuisance. If it was intentional, that at least could be intriguing, but only if it was born out of of intent instead of ineffective design.

Authorial intent is always irrelevant.