230 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I, personally, would only find it interesting if it was intentional in this case. Because if it was an oversight, the end result becomes little more than a communication nuisance. If it was intentional, that at least could be intriguing, but only if it was born out of of intent instead of ineffective design.

Authorial intent is always irrelevant.

Authorial intent isn't paramount, but it does have relevance. 

Ridley Scott has come out and said Deckard from BladeRunner was a replicant. That this was his intent, regardless of the ability to interpret events otherwise, has value. Is that value exceeded by the end user? That's a debatable concept. But that doesn't mean Ridley Scott's intent to demonstrate that Deckard was a replicant is irrelevant. 

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Best Qunari name is an Ork name.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Authorial intent isn't paramount, but it does have relevance. 

Ridley Scott has come out and said Deckard from BladeRunner was a replicant. That this was his intent, regardless of the ability to interpret events otherwise, has value. Is that value exceeded by the end user? That's a debatable concept. But that doesn't mean Ridley Scott's intent to demonstrate that Deckard was a replicant is irrelevant.

Nor does it demonstrate relevance.

The only value authorial intent has is in providing us with a suggestion as to how to interpret a work.  We don't have to interpret it that way, but if it hadn't occurred to us to interpret it that way then perhaps we can give it a shot.

[sandalisthemaker]

I have an issue with using the blanket term Qunari when describing the race because I fundamentally dislike the Qun as a religion/philosophy. Being forced to call the grey skinned horned Inquisitor a Qunari when they do no follow the Qun leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. That's why I'm so opposed to using the term.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

I have an issue with using the blanket term Qunari when describing the race because I fundamentally dislike the Qun as a religion/philosophy. Being forced to call the grey skinned horned Inquisitor a Qunari when they do no follow the Qun leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. That's why I'm so opposed to using the term.

Then don't call him that. Just be aware that most people will and there's little you can do about that.

[sandalisthemaker]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

I have an issue with using the blanket term Qunari when describing the race because I fundamentally dislike the Qun as a religion/philosophy. Being forced to call the grey skinned horned Inquisitor a Qunari when they do no follow the Qun leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. That's why I'm so opposed to using the term.

Then don't call him that. Just be aware that most people will and there's little you can do about that.

I'm not concerned about forumites using the term to describe the race, but I'm sure I'll cringe plenty of times when NPC's use the term repeatedly when talking to the Inquisitor in game. 

[Firky]

David Gaider wrote...

.... When you select your race, it will say "Qunari" even though you're playing Tal-Vashoth and it will be described as such in the text. ....

Ha!

I've been wondering this - like, whether the qunari protagonist will have never had contact with the Qun - or have been part of it. Or whether they will be Tal-Vashoth.

Freaking great.

As with all assumptions about the qunari, this is probably wrong, but I think this makes the idea of a mage qunari protagonist fascinating. If she (and I'm saying that knowing we haven't seen a female qunari mage yet) has been kept in a similar manner to Ketojan (who's name is actually whatever) then she's has amazing potential as a protagonist, I reckon.

Edit:  I just went to look at Tal Vashoth in the wiki. This is what I mean. "Though the Tal-Vashoth still keep the former Saarebas leashed if those are in their company." I have no idea where that is sources from, but I'm guessing the protagonist won't be. Heheh. (Food for thought, though.)

And, it's like this thing. http://dragonage.wik...an_of_Saarebas I've always assumed that this was part of Ketojan's soul, like Sten's sword. Like, if it's made of horn, maybe it's even a physical part of the saarebas itself. (Maybe qunari mage protagonist will have one.)

Yay! Thanks for the info. That's my day happily occupied in my imagination.

Modifié par Firky, 02 octobre 2013 - 10:08 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Quatre04 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
No, but mainly because I know we're called humans.

Which makes the difference: The Qunari hardly know anything about the concept of kossith.

True, but we are not qunari. Poodles don't have any notion of what they're called either, yet we still label them with a specific name because humans have found it useful to be discerning.

But then the Qunari live in Thedas and not in our world. Since we accept that they're a fictional race, we could also accept that they have certain ideas of race, culture and religion, couldn't we?

Of course! You are not wrong, but I am not arguing this so that my human character in Dragon Age can use a term neither she nor the qunari would recognise! That's not the goal here. I am not bound by the naming conventions of Thedas. Why should I care if I offend the sensibilities of a fictional species?

As a person of the Real World and someone who works with words, I like to try and be precise when discussing things. Naturally I could do that by being more descriptive, say, 'horned giant qunari' or 'hornless giant tal vashoth' or something like that, but one word to describe a (sub-)species with common physical features, whether or not it's used ingame, is a preferable convenience.

No such word exists, and that's fine. I can certainly live with it, and as far as the qunari are concerned I can't say I really care one way or the other.* But I understand why people who like talking about them might want such a word. Humans name stuff. It makes life easier. Most of the time.

You're right ... but on the other hand this aspect was noteworthy enough to be mentioned in the book. That's why I'd assume that there was at least some change.

Yeah, I know. I'm just used to never assuming when it comes to words. 'No one remembers' is a common precursor to 'gotcha!'


*I realise that my interest in the discussion might not be the same as others. My stance is that even an incorrect term is useful as a point of reference for things like forum discussion, so long as everyone who uses it is well aware that it's incorrect and we don't expect anyone outside our little circles to know what the hell we're talking about.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

I have an issue with using the blanket term Qunari when describing the race because I fundamentally dislike the Qun as a religion/philosophy. Being forced to call the grey skinned horned Inquisitor a Qunari when they do no follow the Qun leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. That's why I'm so opposed to using the term.

Then don't call him that. Just be aware that most people will and there's little you can do about that.

I'm not concerned about forumites using the term to describe the race, but I'm sure I'll cringe plenty of times when NPC's use the term repeatedly when talking to the Inquisitor in game. 

But the same principle applies. You can't really control the NPC's public perception of Qunari very much either.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 03 octobre 2013 - 12:28 .

[In Exile]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Qunari view the Tal-Vashoth in general very, very poorly. They typically see them as worse than bas.

Even if that Tal-Vasoth didn't choose to leave the Qun, i.e., was born outside of it? 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

In Exile wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Qunari view the Tal-Vashoth in general very, very poorly. They typically see them as worse than bas.

Even if that Tal-Vasoth didn't choose to leave the Qun, i.e., was born outside of it? 

If they were born outside the qun, they can't be Tal-Vashoth. A Tal-Vashoth is one who once followed the qun, but then abandoned it. Essentially, Tal-Vashoth appears to be a synonym for apostate.

(That's the real world apostate not the Dragon Age mage apostate, folks!)

[Kipperdee]

Perhaps we should follow Leliana's example and just call the Qunari 'Softies' instead. Underneath that tough exterior of a Qunari is merely a horned giant playing with a kitten.

[Nohvarr]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

I have an issue with using the blanket term Qunari when describing the race because I fundamentally dislike the Qun as a religion/philosophy. Being forced to call the grey skinned horned Inquisitor a Qunari when they do no follow the Qun leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. That's why I'm so opposed to using the term.

Then don't call him that. Just be aware that most people will and there's little you can do about that.

I'm not concerned about forumites using the term to describe the race, but I'm sure I'll cringe plenty of times when NPC's use the term repeatedly when talking to the Inquisitor in game. 

Excellent, then you're having an immediate emotional response to the actions characters take in-game. Mission Accomplished.

Seriously though, I hope Bioware sticks by their guns on this one, as not having a defined name, and it being within the nature of horned ones not to acknowledge one makes them more alien to my mind.

[Chari]

Kipperdee wrote...

Perhaps we should follow Leliana's example and just call the Qunari 'Softies' instead. Underneath that tough exterior of a Qunari is merely a horned giant playing with a kitten.

I can just imagine people running away from Arishok's troops and screaming in terror: "Softies! Softies are coming!"
They'll hug the hell out of us all

[Kipperdee]

Chari wrote...

Kipperdee wrote...

Perhaps we should follow Leliana's example and just call the Qunari 'Softies' instead. Underneath that tough exterior of a Qunari is merely a horned giant playing with a kitten.

I can just imagine people running away from Arishok's troops and screaming in terror: "Softies! Softies are coming!"
They'll hug the hell out of us all

As the Softies thunder towards us on their kitten mounts...

[Chari]

Kipperdee wrote...

Chari wrote...

Kipperdee wrote...

Perhaps we should follow Leliana's example and just call the Qunari 'Softies' instead. Underneath that tough exterior of a Qunari is merely a horned giant playing with a kitten.

I can just imagine people running away from Arishok's troops and screaming in terror: "Softies! Softies are coming!"
They'll hug the hell out of us all

As the Softies thunder towards us on their kitten mounts...

Well, considering the size of kossiths... their kittens gotta be full-size tigers XD
Now that would look awesome

[Nefla]

Kipperdee wrote...

Perhaps we should follow Leliana's example and just call the Qunari 'Softies' instead. Underneath that tough exterior of a Qunari is merely a horned giant playing with a kitten.

Sten was training that kitten damn it! Training it for war! 

[Wissenschaft]

This topic again? People sure love to argue with the writers about whats cannon in the lore they wrote.  


I find some fans lack of an apprication for adjectives distrubing.  

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 03 octobre 2013 - 04:21 .

[Wissenschaft]

Mary Kirby wrote...

In Exile wrote...

How would a Qunari view a Tal-Vasoth who happens to be the Inquisitor (or even a Grey Warden, if that could happen)? 

That person would suddenly have a "role" - a purpose - that seems to fit well with how the Qun attributes purposes to people. Would they still see you as a bas? Or a Basalit-An (sp)?

Qunari view the Tal-Vashoth in general very, very poorly. They typically see them as worse than bas.

 

I thnk the reason for that is that Bas are seen merily as ignorant while Tal-Vashoth have rejected their role. their honor, and now have neither.

[Allan Schumacher]

This topic again? People sure love to argue with the writers about whats cannon in the lore they wrote.

It's cool.  I agree with the sentiment David has with respect to "If you feel the need to define the term with Kossith (or anything else) for your own clarity that is fine.  It's just not how it behaves in game."

In the end, be respectful, recognize that some people may need extra clarification because they may not know of the term, and whatnot, and just be excellent to each other.

[Wissenschaft]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

I have an issue with using the blanket term Qunari when describing the race because I fundamentally dislike the Qun as a religion/philosophy. Being forced to call the grey skinned horned Inquisitor a Qunari when they do no follow the Qun leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. That's why I'm so opposed to using the term.

 

Does this mean that if someone dislikes Judism they should make up some other word to refer to Jews? 

Now that I think about it, do the people of Thedas have any racist terms for Qunari? We all know Elves are refered to as Knife-Ears as an insult. Are Qunari just mocked as Ox-men? 

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 03 octobre 2013 - 04:37 .

[Chari]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This topic again? People sure love to argue with the writers about whats cannon in the lore they wrote.

It's cool.  I agree with the sentiment David has with respect to "If you feel the need to define the term with Kossith (or anything else) for your own clarity that is fine.  It's just not how it behaves in game."

In the end, be respectful, recognize that some people may need extra clarification because they may not know of the term, and whatnot, and just be excellent to each other.

Well said, sir 

[Quatre]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
True, but we are not qunari. Poodles don't have any notion of what they're called either, yet we still label them with a specific name because humans have found it useful to be discerning.

Yes, I know. It's just that I don't think it's too difficult to adopt their "exotic" naming concept, when discussing the Qunari.

Why should I care if I offend the sensibilities of a fictional species?

Well ... that wasn't what I was trying to say. Sorry, if my answer was a little bit misleading.

Let me put it this way: When talking about a fictional people we might as well stick to its naming standards instead of using an incorrect term ... just to make it easier for us. In this case, I don't see the need.

As a person of the Real World and someone who works with words, I like to try and be precise when discussing things.

Same here, actually.  However, English isn't my native language ...

But I understand why people who like talking about them might want such a word.

So do I. Yet I don't understand why it has to be a word that is obviously incorrect and out-dated. 

When I hear the word Qunari, the first thing that comes to my mind are the horned giants. In combination with terms like Tal-Vashoth, Viddathari and Elven/Human/Dwarven Qunari that word suffices.

My stance is that even an incorrect term is useful as a point of reference for things like forum discussion, so long as everyone who uses it is well aware that it's incorrect and we don't expect anyone outside our little circles to know what the hell we're talking about.

I guess, there's the rub.  

By the way, thanks for the discussion.

Modifié par Quatre04, 03 octobre 2013 - 07:25 .

[Reever]

Some people are really, really stubborn. At some point following the discussion I was just thinking: "Really, now?!!"

But thanks for the info, everybody should bookmark this thread and post it if this discussion should arise again in the future