230 réponses à ce sujet

[Nefla]

The Wolf Man wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Wolf Man wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

 or when particular pedantic fans moan about how the lack of a proper racial name is confusing (and thus an error in the lore) when that's exactly what it's designed to be.

 

Wow. Rude. OP was just trying to make sense of things. You explained it perfectly - until this remark... 

Credibility fail.

(Where exactly is the professionalism among Bioware?) 

He's just fed up.  People have been going on about this off and on for months.

 

No. It doesn't matter. He makes money off this industry - off the people who buy the game now and ask questions later. Gaider's attitude is unprofessional. A majority of people on these boards are too starstruck to own up to that very real fact. 

He owes the OP an apology. His remark was clearly aimed at the OP through transparent condescension. It wasn't a clever insult by any means - and he is insulting one of the millions of people who contribute to his paycheck. 

 Edit: Let's get angry/fed up about things that matter. (starvation, government shutdowns, sexual abuse, homelessness) Let's speak to customers and fans with professionalism, even should we disagree.

Why not practice what you preach and not get angry at an opinion on an internet forum?

His job isn't PR/customer service, he has a right to express his feelings and opinions like anyone else. A large portion of the people in this thread are being stubborn, annoying, and trying to force their ideas on what is right in the lore on the people who CREATED the lore. That's stupid and annoying.

[LupoCarlos]

So...
this humanoid race doesn't have a name at all? Just cultural references? like "ex-kossith" and "qunari"?

Another thing that i don't have very clear is that if people of this race doesn't become Tal-Vashot nor Qunari, what are they called? I mean, we'll have a female "qunari" companion in Inquisition, and our Inquisitor can be "qunari", so what are they called in racial terms.

[kinderschlager]

this *would* be a pet peeve for me....if bioware hadn't managed to create a truly unique fantasy race. i haven't seen anything as unique as the quanari in fantasy in a LONG time. it's always elves, dwarves, and some form of orc. with the occasional deity and dragon tossed in.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Quatre04 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
True, but we are not qunari. Poodles don't have any notion of what they're called either, yet we still label them with a specific name because humans have found it useful to be discerning.

Yes, I know. It's just that I don't think it's too difficult to adopt their "exotic" naming concept, when discussing the Qunari.

Agreed I think the vast majority of Dragon Age fans would feel similarly. But then the vast majority of fans don't get into heated discussions about Qunari culture. XD

]Well ... that wasn't what I was trying to say. Sorry, if my answer was a little bit misleading.

Let me put it this way: When talking about a fictional people we might as well stick to its naming standards instead of using an incorrect term ... just to make it easier for us. In this case, I don't see the need.

Well, really, nor do I. It's not necessary. It'd be nice, a convenience like I said, but that's it.

So do I. Yet I don't understand why it has to be a word that is obviously incorrect and out-dated. 

Probably because it's the only word that's been officially provided that comes close to being what fans are after.

Also, one could argue that using qunari as a blanket term is no less wrong, even if the term is infinitely more recognised. I mean, the games themselves (and at least one DLC) calls you out on your wrongness whenever 'qunari' is used to refer to a horned giant who isn't under the qun.

The argument then becomes, with both terms having their issues, do we use the defunct one that is at least implying it has something to do with species? Or the the modern one that has nothing do do with species, even though the people of Thedas treat it as such?

When I hear the word Qunari, the first thing that comes to my mind are the horned giants. In combination with terms like Tal-Vashoth, Viddathari and Elven/Human/Dwarven Qunari that word suffices.

Indeed, at least in a casual context.

So long as whatever we're trying to say is understandable to those around us, it probably doesn't matter what term we use. But it's fun to debate

I guess, there's the rub.  

By the way, thanks for the discussion.

Likewise! Civilised discourse on the uses and abuses of language on the BSN. It can be done! ;D

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Morocco Mole wrote...

LupoCarlos wrote...

So...
this humanoid race doesn't have a name at all? Just cultural references? like "ex-kossith" and "qunari"?

Another thing that i don't have very clear is that if people of this race doesn't become Tal-Vashot nor Qunari, what are they called? I mean, we'll have a female "qunari" companion in Inquisition, and our Inquisitor can be "qunari", so what are they called in racial terms.

Qunari.

This isn't a hard concept to grasp.

Actually...it's not far-fetched to believe that a people who have lived a generation or two outside of the qun would have developed a name for themselves. Sure, the Average Joe would still identify them as qunari on the basis of appearance, but they may not.

If no such people exist though, it's a moot point.

[leaguer of one]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

LupoCarlos wrote...

So...
this humanoid race doesn't have a name at all? Just cultural references? like "ex-kossith" and "qunari"?

Another thing that i don't have very clear is that if people of this race doesn't become Tal-Vashot nor Qunari, what are they called? I mean, we'll have a female "qunari" companion in Inquisition, and our Inquisitor can be "qunari", so what are they called in racial terms.

Qunari.

This isn't a hard concept to grasp.

Actually...it's not far-fetched to believe that a people who have lived a generation or two outside of the qun would have developed a name for themselves. Sure, the Average Joe would still identify them as qunari on the basis of appearance, but they may not.

If no such people exist though, it's a moot point.

They are called Tal-Vashoth. That still them being Qunari.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

leaguer of one wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

LupoCarlos wrote...

So...
this humanoid race doesn't have a name at all? Just cultural references? like "ex-kossith" and "qunari"?

Another thing that i don't have very clear is that if people of this race doesn't become Tal-Vashot nor Qunari, what are they called? I mean, we'll have a female "qunari" companion in Inquisition, and our Inquisitor can be "qunari", so what are they called in racial terms.

Qunari.

This isn't a hard concept to grasp.

Actually...it's not far-fetched to believe that a people who have lived a generation or two outside of the qun would have developed a name for themselves. Sure, the Average Joe would still identify them as qunari on the basis of appearance, but they may not.

If no such people exist though, it's a moot point.

They are called Tal-Vashoth. That still them being Qunari.

No. Tal-Vashoth are those who once followed the qun but then abandoned it. LupoCarlos and I are speculating about 'horned giants' who have never been under the qun at all.

Calling such people 'Tal-Vashoth' would be akin to calling a family 'ex-Christians' when they were never followers of Christ to begin with.

Edit: That is not to say that an autonomous off-shoot might not persist in calling themselves Tal-Vashoth, even after several generations of freedom. Anything is possible, and language is always evolving.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 04 octobre 2013 - 09:24 .

[Quatre]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Probably because it's the only word that's been officially provided that comes close to being what fans are after.

True.

 mean, the games themselves (and at least one DLC) calls you out on your wrongness whenever 'qunari' is used to refer to a horned giant who isn't under the qun.

You're referring to the conversation between Cassandra and Varric in "Mark of the Assassin", right? I guess, in this context Cassandra was simply addressing the whole "viddathari-elven-qunari-issue".

Furthermore, I assume that the Tal-Vashoth simply don't like being called Qunari, since they reject the teachings of the Qun - and that they don't know the word kossith either. If they knew, they wouldn't just call themselves "the true grey ones", would they?

The argument then becomes, with both terms having their issues, do we use the defunct one that is at least implying it has something to do with species? Or the the modern one that has nothing do do with species, even though the people of Thedas treat it as such?

I would still choose Qunari: I'd argue that, to a dwarf or a Thedosian human, someone like Tallis is still an elf in the first place. While Sten - or Maraas - would be primarily identified as Qunari. In contrast, kossith refers to an ancient race ... that might have changed physically.

I wonder, whether the selective breeding has something to do with the fact that there are Qunari with horns and without ... but that's offtopic.

I guess, if necessary, I would have chosen the term vashoth as a new racial name.

So long as whatever we're trying to say is understandable to those around us, it probably doesn't matter what term we use. But it's fun to debate

Indeed.

[Nefla]

The Wolf Man wrote...

Nefla wrote...

The Wolf Man wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Wolf Man wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

 or when particular pedantic fans moan about how the lack of a proper racial name is confusing (and thus an error in the lore) when that's exactly what it's designed to be.

 

Wow. Rude. OP was just trying to make sense of things. You explained it perfectly - until this remark... 

Credibility fail.

(Where exactly is the professionalism among Bioware?) 

He's just fed up.  People have been going on about this off and on for months.

 

No. It doesn't matter. He makes money off this industry - off the people who buy the game now and ask questions later. Gaider's attitude is unprofessional. A majority of people on these boards are too starstruck to own up to that very real fact. 

He owes the OP an apology. His remark was clearly aimed at the OP through transparent condescension. It wasn't a clever insult by any means - and he is insulting one of the millions of people who contribute to his paycheck. 

 Edit: Let's get angry/fed up about things that matter. (starvation, government shutdowns, sexual abuse, homelessness) Let's speak to customers and fans with professionalism, even should we disagree.

Why not practice what you preach and not get angry at an opinion on an internet forum?

His job isn't PR/customer service, he has a right to express his feelings and opinions like anyone else. A large portion of the people in this thread are being stubborn, annoying, and trying to force their ideas on what is right in the lore on the people who CREATED the lore. That's stupid and annoying.

 

Every employee's job should be to best represent his/her company. That company provides them with a livelihood, benefits, and it all rides on the backs of those who invest in it (us). If someone was harassing Gaider - as they did to Helper - then that's a different case. I am not seeing that level of aggression, however.

 I am not attacking anyone for some altruistic "reason" regarding DA lore.

The difference between myself and Gaider is that I am not name calling - I'm reiterating his behavior, stating the fact that he was insulting a demographic of his fans - particularly the OP. I find that offensive because that behavior is, definitively, on the offense. Giving an opinion is one thing - slinging insults is another. Furthermore, asking questions about Qunari lore is not confrontational, not on the offense, and it does not require name calling. 

Your logic in defending Gaider's unprofessional behavior boiled down to "they deserve it because they are stupid and annoying". It seems as though the ease by which he so casually insults his fans has bled over to onlookers who wish to agree with Gaider by mimicking his unpleasant behavior.

Just because he's capable of explaining the lore, and because he is tired of doing so, does not grant him a free hall pass to name calling and bullying. 

Edit: calling out bullies (no matter who they are) is a good reason to speak up. Thus, I've practiced what I preached.

If calling someone unimaginative and accusing them of whining is something you consider bullying, then you need to step outside your glass tower and take a look at actual bullying/cyberbullying. A slightly snippy comment is not bullying. David Gaider explained the same thing over and over and over in this and other threads and still people wanted to argue and tell him why they knew better. He was very matter-of-fact, and far more polite than I would have been in his repeated explanations until he seemed to be getting fed up and made one mildly snippy comment.

I'm sick of this entitled, whiny, "customer is always right" mentality that our society has developed. You maybe able to go to the grocery store and be able to pitch a fit over the fact that you think your waffles are too expensive, shriek at the cashier (who has no control over pricing) call them all sorts of names, act like a devil, and yet the store will bend over backwards, give you free stuff, gift cards, etc...all in the name of customer service. People working are not even considered people by customers, they can't be upset, can't have opinions, and for some reason are required to take a customer's abuse without a single argument. News flash! No one can be Snow White all the time. Being constantly bombarded by people who want to argue for the sake of argument, who just want to be right, who aren't actually confused about anything, many of whom make agressive, passive agressive, condescending, snooty coments will grate on anyone's nerves. The devs come here to talk to us person to person and not as a PR drone and I think we're lucky for that. Most game companies only give scripted interviews/statements and have little to no interaction with fans.

Modifié par Nefla, 05 octobre 2013 - 01:08 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Chari wrote...

Quoting Rasaan "to call a thing by its name is to know its reason in the world. To call a thing falsely is to put out one’s own eyes.[/i]"[/i]
Qunari are literally the most unique and truly new DA race (that we know and is civilized) you've ever created and you don't have a common species name for it?..
EDIT. Cause, you know, elves, dwarves and humans belong to actual folklore for the most part
Eh, poor guys... I hope once linguistics and biology researchers branches of science appear in Thedas, they'll have one...

Rasaan's quote is precisely why the Qunari don't have names.  Qunari do not accept ideas of specific identity, and the concept is anathema to their culture. 

Question, Mary- would it be fair to assume that the Qunari don't take a race-specific name because they feel 'Kossith' doesn't reflect their purpose in the world, and even has poor connotations?

I'm thinking of a line Sten had in DAO (Maybe? Memory's fuzzy.) about elves. It was basically a put down of elf as beaten wretch. I always took it as a Qunari's perspective that primary identifiers (the answer to 'What are you' being 'I am X') would take race identification to have connotations as well... so if you were to answer 'I am an Elf' you would either be saying 'I embrace my role as an oppressed second class / xenophobic nomad.' Because that's what Elves as a whole are, and if you are identifying yourself as an Elf first and foremost then that's clearly what you identify yourself with first and foremost.

Which wouldn't be particularly impressive, hence a lack of respect. And hence why converts to the Qun drop the old identity label and identify with the new one.

I imagine that identification by race, which makes sense in a race-defined society like Thedas culture, comes with a whole host of other, often negative, connotations to a culture which has an entirely different social-defenition and in which self-identity is considered very important. Identity comes with the connotations of what you identify with... so answering 'I am <Human>' could be the same as 'I am <an ****>' (since Rousseau was right and all).

If Kossith used to have a negative connotation, I could easily see why they'd abandon the term.

[Dean_the_Young]

LupoCarlos wrote...

So...
this humanoid race doesn't have a name at all? Just cultural references? like "ex-kossith" and "qunari"?

All names are cultural references. Qunari just doubles as a race and a culture, which don't necessarily overlap perfectly.

Like, well, most countries in Europe and the traditional ethnic states, which are seeing the effects of historically unprecedented immigration of outside ethnicities and cultures into their countries. A third generation immigrant from Turkey who speaks German, has known nothing but German culture for their life, and who has spent all their life in Germany like their parents beforethem has a very strong grounds for being able to claim to be German.

If you speak about race, Qunari refers to the horned giants and possible variants like Sten. If you speak about culture, Qunari refers to the followers of Qun.

Another thing that i don't have very clear is that if people of this race doesn't become Tal-Vashot nor Qunari, what are they called? I mean, we'll have a female "qunari" companion in Inquisition, and our Inquisitor can be "qunari", so what are they called in racial terms.

Qunari.

[nightscrawl]

David Gaider wrote...

Chari wrote...

It's just... it is a race. One of the only four available civilizations of Thedas which has been known for centures. And no language or  nation has made up their own name for it? Dwarven, elven... they do have different names for human, elves, dwarves, don't they? Or orlesian, eh, tevinter-ian?.. But I guess they don't have a name in these languages either?.. As if the whole world had some kind of gathering where htey agreed on not having a name for the kossith race
Even nothing colloquial like ox-men, or le corné/le Qunaré? Or, er, dorf-len?

They call them Qunari. Everyone calls them Qunari. They call the Tal-Vashoth Qunari (which annoys Tal-Vashoth, but they wouldn't expect any more from foreigners than Sten does).

If they encounter an elf who's part of the Qun, first they'd call them an "elf". Maybe they'd say "elven follower of the Qun" if they knew that. If they heard them call themselves "Qunari" they'd wrinkle their noses in confusion, and maybe amend that to "elven Qunari".

It is not that difficult to wrap your head around, surely. Either way, these are all in-game terms. As I said, if you wish to use "kossith" out of game, that's fine-- but it is an out-of-game term only. It is not proper usage.

This is probably the most helpful, and accurate, post I've seen regarding this issue. It seems completely real to me that most people in Thedas, in their ignorance, would call all of the "oxmen" Qunari, without distinction to followers of the Qun, or Tal-Vashoth. In the United States there was, and continues to be, horrible racism and prejudice against groups that are incorrectly identified as Muslim, like Sikhs. And one has only to look at the recent comments about the new Miss America to see misplaced, ignorant, racism at work. Some people can't even hate correctly. It's absurd, and might be comical if I didn't think that those people were earnest.

So I absolutely believe that people in Thedas would behave exactly as David has described here in regard to the Qunari.

David Gaider wrote...

Qunari names are long and have an exact meaning regarding their birth and station-- sort of like a SIN-- provided to them by the Tamassrans, and which are very important to them.

I decided to write this since these forums can be quite international, moreso than we might give them credit for since we mainly write in English.

I want to clarify here, since I Googled to make sure that my assumption was correct. David is here referring to the Canadian Social Insurance Number. In the US it is the Social Security Number. Various countries use different systems to keep track of its citizens, either by number assignment at birth or immigration, which is unique to that individual, and can be used to access government benefits, pay taxes, and the like.

There might be thousands of John Smiths, but they will each have a different SSN. There might be thousands of Stens, but they will each have a different name assigned by the Tamassrans.

That said, I do still find the Qunari name issue to be amusing. If a battle is raging all around and a Karasten wants to issue a bunch of assignments to his Karasaad, it seems odd that he would use some long, convoluted name to do that. I suppose that, being from a society that does have unique identifiers for each person, it is very difficult for me to imagine how it works without some specific examples.

[Kallimachus]

I'm jewish. And an atheist. Doesn't make me less Jewish. And no, there's no contradiction here. Is that so hard to fathom?

Whenever someone says something like: "But what if I want to refer to the Qunari SPECIES?" my mind inevitably goes to the following scene:

A classroom in the Denerim Academy for Xenobiology (DAX). On the table there's an horned grey cadaver, its chest and abdomen sliced through and wide open. A somewhat sinister looking professor reaches out to the corpse, while speaking to the class in front of him: "Today, students, we'll discuss the properties of the Kossith spleen."

Devs, is that scene likely to appear in any future DA game?

Modifié par Kallimachus, 05 octobre 2013 - 12:14 .

[Petiertje]

David Gaider wrote...

Qistina wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
If I remember correctly, they identify themselves and each other by seniority or weapon of choice in such a circumstance.

Sten : I found this weapon, i wonder who it's belong to?
Sten : It belong to Sten
Sten : Which Sten?
Sten : Oh both of you found it, that weapon belong to me
Sten : Who are you?
Sten : Sten, of the Beresad
Sten : We are all Sten of the Beresad!

As I mentioned earlier, Sten in DAO gives you that name to use because he tells you his real name would be difficult for you to pronounce. Qunari names are long and have an exact meaning regarding their birth and station-- sort of like a SIN-- provided to them by the Tamassrans, and which are very important to them. One assumes they might have a shortened version that fellow Qunari who are familiar with them might use, but clearly Sten did not think giving you that was worthwhile. You are, effectively, calling him "soldier".

If you're assuming that Qunari would call each other that, then you are incorrect.

It reminds me of the the Hanar in Mass Effect, They have face names and soul names, their face names are for everyone, while their soul names are for close relatives and relationships. Is it something similair?
Anyway, I just stick to how they are called in the games. (don't want to make them angry )

[Dean_the_Young]

The only Qunari linguistics/culture question I have about their identification words is if there's a word for Qunari(race) who have never been a part of the Qun. Do they just get called Bas?

[Potato Cat]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The only Qunari linguistics/culture question I have about their identification words is if there's a word for Qunari(race) who have never been a part of the Qun. Do they just get called Bas?

Technically they are bas, but I think we can safely assume that they would just think us Tal Vashoth. I mean the Qun was so popular that an entire race became the Qunari. Imagine, you were a horned giant, all the horned giants you know are either Qunari or Tal Vashoth. And then you see a horned giant travelling one day, and for the sake of argument, let's just say she's not a mage. Now, this lady's not wearing typical Qunari clothing, and maybe she's carrying a massive sword. Therefore, she must not be Qunari and so she has to be Tal Vashoth.

How do you know she's never even heard of the Qun? That she doesn't know who Koslun was, or anything about the Qunari culture? You don't, but it's such a rare occurence. She's bas, but to Qunari she's just Tal Vashoth.

[Dean_the_Young]

That's assigning a viewpoint I don't think is warranted. The circumstances in which a Qunari(race) might not grow up under the Qun might be rare, but they certainly could occur: navigation accidents (the Tarzan syndrom), kidnappings/abductions (Tevinter slavers), even Tal Vashoth getting away and procreating a new generation.

Since these non-Qun Qunari could very well be children, auto-labeling 'dissident' on them doesn't strike me as something within the normal Qunari logic.