92 réponses à ce sujet

[cooldonkeyfish]

I thought their reactions were much better in ME1, TBH.
Like when you can be either wonderful or hateful toward Kaidan/Ashely (depending on Shep's gender).
"You've been questioning my competence since the beginning!"
"Best way to stop that is to show me you're competent."

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Bleachrude wrote...

Interesting...

The OP thinks ME3 allowed us to be too renegade while MassivelyEffecti thinks ME3 limited renegade responses..

Personally, I was stunned to see an authority figure (Victus) actually remind Shepard exactly who the hell he was talking to.

coming from the previous games where you can be a total dick to authority figures, I was surprised.

I'd have said to Victus "Great, have fun fighting the Reapers on your own!"

I'm kind of a my way or the high-way type guy. If the Primarch wants to save his people, then he plays my game. I won't second-guess him, or give him orders, or undermine his authority in any way. I have no interest in that. But I've seen all the authority sit around and do jack **** against the Reapers. And now I'm the best hope they have of stopping them. So if they want my help, they're going to have to play by my rules. Sure, they can build the Crucible. But can they unite the galaxy together? Can they acquire all the assets they need? Can they make the Crucible any more than just a big floating cherry bomb? I think not.

[YourFleshIsMine]

My biggest problem is how the system works with regards to getting certain options. From a game technical point of view the options with the best results are the renegade and paragon responses. So you are basically pushed towards getting enough points. But as the system works with some sort of percentage thing that I still don't really get, you are basically forced to be a total douche renegade or a suicidal reflective paragon. I went paragon on one character and it was just seriously depressing in ME3.

Personally I don't like that you are rewarded with conversation options by being a one-dimensional caricature of a hero. A real person has flaws but also has merits. Most npcs are built that way. So why reward people who make their character one-dimensional. I've played through ME3 three times now but so far none of my characters had enough points for the final paragon on renegade options with the Illusive man. On two I got the options up to that last one but not the last one. The third character didn't even get the options before that.

Why? Because I can't play 100% renegade or paragon. That's just stupid in my view because nobody is that extreme unless they are completely uncaring and I think persuasion skills need to include at least some form of empathy so people are willing to listen to you and do what you propose. So it's psychologically nonesense as well in my view.

The thing is that some renegade choices are just about getting the job done and accepting casualties and other choices are just down right mean or evil by choice. To me they don't fit in the same category.

But all of that wouldn't have mattered if it didn't affect you ability to get the better choices in conversations. In my view, a person who can balance renegade and paragon actions would make a stronger leader than someone who is consistently lamenting the dead or someone psycho who burns everything around him to achieve his/her goals.

Modifié par YourFleshIsMine, 26 septembre 2013 - 11:24 .

[Anarchy__]

YourFleshIsMine wrote...

My biggest problem is how the system works with regards to getting certain options. From a game technical point of view the options with the best results are the renegade and paragon responses. So you are basically pushed towards getting enough points. But as the system works with some sort of percentage thing that I still don't really get, you are basically forced to be a total douche renegade or a suicidal reflective paragon. I went paragon on one character and it was just seriously depressing in ME3.

Personally I don't like that you are rewarded with conversation options by being a one-dimensional caricature of a hero. A real person has flaws but also has merits. Most npcs are built that way. So why reward people who make their character one-dimensional. I've played through ME3 three times now but so far none of my characters had enough points for the final paragon on renegade options with the Illusive man. On two I got the options up to that last one but not the last one. The third character didn't even get the options before that.

Why? Because I can't play 100% renegade or paragon. That's just stupid in my view because nobody is that extreme unless they are completely uncaring and I think persuasion skills need to include at least some form of empathy so people are willing to listen to you and do what you propose. So it's psychologically nonesense as well in my view.

The thing is that some renegade choices are just about getting the job done and accepting casualties and other choices are just down right mean or evil by choice. To me they don't fit in the same category.

But all of that wouldn't have mattered if it didn't affect you ability to get the better choices in conversations. In my view, a person who can balance renegade and paragon actions would make a stronger leader than someone who is consistently lamenting the dead or someone psycho who burns everything around him to achieve his/her goals.

noooooo, me3 doesnt use me1&2 system of paragon/renegade. in me3, you can be a renagon/paragade because the 2 options count as one thing. You unlock paragon and renegade options through doing the options, I forgot what the points were called, but make sure you do every mission/side mission/convo to unlock the last two options.

[YourFleshIsMine]

Anarchy__ wrote...

YourFleshIsMine wrote...

My biggest problem is how the system works with regards to getting certain options. From a game technical point of view the options with the best results are the renegade and paragon responses. So you are basically pushed towards getting enough points. But as the system works with some sort of percentage thing that I still don't really get, you are basically forced to be a total douche renegade or a suicidal reflective paragon. I went paragon on one character and it was just seriously depressing in ME3.

Personally I don't like that you are rewarded with conversation options by being a one-dimensional caricature of a hero. A real person has flaws but also has merits. Most npcs are built that way. So why reward people who make their character one-dimensional. I've played through ME3 three times now but so far none of my characters had enough points for the final paragon on renegade options with the Illusive man. On two I got the options up to that last one but not the last one. The third character didn't even get the options before that.

Why? Because I can't play 100% renegade or paragon. That's just stupid in my view because nobody is that extreme unless they are completely uncaring and I think persuasion skills need to include at least some form of empathy so people are willing to listen to you and do what you propose. So it's psychologically nonesense as well in my view.

The thing is that some renegade choices are just about getting the job done and accepting casualties and other choices are just down right mean or evil by choice. To me they don't fit in the same category.

But all of that wouldn't have mattered if it didn't affect you ability to get the better choices in conversations. In my view, a person who can balance renegade and paragon actions would make a stronger leader than someone who is consistently lamenting the dead or someone psycho who burns everything around him to achieve his/her goals.

noooooo, me3 doesnt use me1&2 system of paragon/renegade. in me3, you can be a renagon/paragade because the 2 options count as one thing. You unlock paragon and renegade options through doing the options, I forgot what the points were called, but make sure you do every mission/side mission/convo to unlock the last two options.

Reputation points, but what you say is not entirely correct. I still get renegade or paragon points from some choices and just by playing you can't figure out really when you get reputation and when you get paragon or renegade points. I agree there are differences but I still managed to NOT get the last choices with a full reputation bar, so there is still something going on there.

[Anarchy__]

StreetMagic wrote...

I think you have to be consistent like me.. take full paragon or renegade starting at Mars, all the up to Priority Earth, and you get a full conversation with TIM?

Or so I think? Maybe I'm not understanding what you're trying to do exactly.

yeah that its, you have to consistent with your choices

[Anarchy__]

Bleachrude wrote...

Interesting...

The OP thinks ME3 allowed us to be too renegade while MassivelyEffecti thinks ME3 limited renegade responses..

Personally, I was stunned to see an authority figure (Victus) actually remind Shepard exactly who the hell he was talking to.

coming from the previous games where you can be a total dick to authority figures, I was surprised.

no, I'm saying you could be renegade and characters wouldn't change how they feel towards him (like if he was paragon). 

[Anfauglith5]

YourFleshIsMine wrote...

Reputation points, but what you say is not entirely correct. I still get renegade or paragon points from some choices and just by playing you can't figure out really when you get reputation and when you get paragon or renegade points. I agree there are differences but I still managed to NOT get the last choices with a full reputation bar, so there is still something going on there.

That's wrong.
In ME3, renegade, paragon and reputations points are used to unlock any charm/intimidation option.

For a specific option, you will need a number of point, let's say 1000 points, which can be 1000 reputations, 1000 paragons, 500 reputaion + 500 paragons...

Except for one occurance. At the end of the game, If you want to use Charm/Intimidation agains TIM, you need a full reputaion bar, and you also have to use every charm/intimidation options with him in the Game. But you can do that with a 50% Paragon/50% Renegade

Modifié par Anfauglith5, 26 septembre 2013 - 01:25 .

[andy6915]

You're wrong too Anfauglith5. ALL that matters is reputation. Period. You can have literally 99% paragon and still be able to make every single renegade persuasion in the game except for the final TIM conversation (and that is dependent on what alignment of persuasions you used before and not on true alignment). I can tell you this for a fact, last playthrough I was paragon way more often then not and there wasn't a SINGLE TIME in the game where either persuasion was greyed out. In fact, I've always been very paragon on several ME3 playthroughs, and all options being available has been true for all of them.

In short, don't even worry about your alignment... It's just for show at this point. Only thing it affects is your scarring if you never healed it with research or the bonus from Liara's terminal.

[Sir DeLoria]

cap and gown wrote...

Jack has "eff you" comebacks no matter if you are paragon or renegade. I am currently romancing Jack and let me tell you, it has to be the hardest romance in the game. It takes forever to get anywhere, like 5 or 6 convo's, and each time she tells you "eff off" at the end. So I don't think Jack counts.

Really? I seem to get her romance option in almost every playthrough. Though I've always rejected her.

[Bleachrude]

Technically, Victus _IS_ a competent authority figure...

He's the one who actually suggested getting the krogans on-board and it was his threat that got the dalatress to give up Eve...

[Anfauglith5]

andy69156915 wrote...

You're wrong too Anfauglith5. ALL that matters is reputation. Period. You can have literally 99% paragon and still be able to make every single renegade persuasion in the game except for the final TIM conversation (and that is dependent on what alignment of persuasions you used before and not on true alignment). I can tell you this for a fact, last playthrough I was paragon way more often then not and there wasn't a SINGLE TIME in the game where either persuasion was greyed out. In fact, I've always been very paragon on several ME3 playthroughs, and all options being available has been true for all of them.

In short, don't even worry about your alignment... It's just for show at this point. Only thing it affects is your scarring if you never healed it with research or the bonus from Liara's terminal.

Actually it's what i wanted to explain... but you're better than me at that !

[Fixers0]

Bleachrude wrote...
He's the one who actually suggested getting the krogans on-board and it was his threat that got the dalatress to give up Eve...

that makes him sound more like a  candidate for a mental hospital then anything else.

[shodiswe]

I think the easiest answer is that it woudl be far too much work to take all of it into account.
A lot of the options carried over, but some of it didn't.

[AlanC9]

Fixers0 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...
He's the one who actually suggested getting the krogans on-board and it was his threat that got the dalatress to give up Eve...

that makes him sound more like a  candidate for a mental hospital then anything else.

Because he comes up with plans that work?

[FlyingSquirrel]

I think the problem is that Paragon/Renegade reflects a number of different contrast:

Principled vs. Ruthless: Examples would be the rachni queen, the genophage cure, how you handle the batarians who take Mordin's assistant hostage.

Multilateralist vs. Unilateralist: Shepard's attitude towards the council and other non-human leaders as well as shady, go-it-alone groups like Cerberus.

Polite vs. Confrontational: How Shepard reacts to people like Mikhailovich, Al-Jilani, Han Gerrel, etc. who are challenging him/her or at least vocally disagreeing.

If you look at the other characters besides Shepard, some of them arguably go Paragon on some of these dimensions and Renegade on others. Liara turns more ruthless in ME2, but is still a multilateralist and usually polite. Jacob is principled and polite (if a bit standoffish), but arguably somewhat unilateralist (though not anti-alien) given his reasons for joining Cerberus.

My own canon Shepard is principled, multilateralist, and usually polite, but confrontational once in a while towards those she sees as perpetrating ruthless or unilateralist behavior. Gerrel gets chewed out (though not punched) for firing on the dreadnought in ME3, for example, and the turian councilor gets the "Three? No...four!" comeback about the rachni on Noveria. I think ME3 got this right by having the cumulative reputation bar instead of racking up separate Paragon and Renegade points.

Modifié par FlyingSquirrel, 26 septembre 2013 - 04:22 .

[cap and gown]

Wow, talk about push back from the crew, I just got the biggest push back I have ever seen and it was from the AI! After the collector kidnapping Miranda goes off on Joker for unshackling EDI. EDI responds she is part of the crew and wouldn't harm them. This time I had Shepard respond she is not part of the crew, just hardware. (This Shepard is not a fan of AI at all, at all.) What Shepard said was that EDI's loyalty could be flipped by just switching a bit. EDI's response was amazing and unexpected. She said something along the lines that loyalty is based on three things: mutual respect, a common cause, and something else (common experiences?). Shepard and her shared two of the three. Zing!

[Bionuts]

Genophage cure is not a true paragon/renegade situation.

Being renegade doesn't mean you think the Korgan should not be given a chance.

Being renegade is simply being able to make tough choices when the benefits too obvious.

Example is in Dragon Age Origins, when you choose between destroying the Anvil of the Void or keeping it. If you keep it, more souls will be enslaved but you get giant machines to help you fight in the final battle. And RPwise it would make the Dwarfs allies to the Wardens.

[Bionuts]

Perhaps curing the Korgan can even be considered renegade IF the situation called for it.

You're curing a species that has a history and culture of massive amounts of violence. Doing so makes them a strong ally of yours. Not just in the present but in the future. A lot of risk, but the benefits are too obvious.

[Ice Cold J]

Anarchy__ wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

It depends on the character. Some are bigger welcoming mats than others. Jack and Grunt react differently enough in ME2. They have their own smart comebacks at least. They don't simply "take it". Joker doesn't take a lot of crap either. He knows who's in command, but he's his own person.

The relations aren't "dynamic", Shephard can be a total ass but in the end all squadmates will feel the same towards him as if he was paragon

Not true. Jack can get to the point where you can't even talk to her any more.