92 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

andy69156915 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

How renegade do you have to be in order to get her to say that?

Not sure. It seems to happen everytime I play though. It's kind of an "awkward moment".

It's the one and only thing that makes renegades picking Morinth logical. Morinth won't directly try to kill you and will only be a threat if Shepard doesn't have a romance or loses porn and can't think with anything but the genitals, so she's a threat but only if you let her be. Samara though outright says she will try to kill you, and she will use far more direct methods like biotics and guns. So who do you choose, the one who will try to kill you by attacking or the one will only try to kill you through means that would require epic amounts of stupid? Logically, you should take the one who didn't say they will hunt you down.

Right, this is why I don't get people who claim that renegades are making a stupid move by choosing Morinth over Samara. One the first things Samara tells you is that she will kill you once it is over. This is coming from the same woman whose first encounter you have with her is her hunting down someone she is honor bound to kill. My Shep don't have time for that. It's better to kill her off asap and take on her daughter who can perform the same job. All you have to do is not be a moron and have sex with her.

[KaiserShep]

Oddly, my more renegade Shepard didn't have the prompt to choose. He automatically chose to kill Morinth. Not sure what the requirements are for this scene.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 26 septembre 2013 - 08:47 .

[Hazegurl]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Interesting...

The OP thinks ME3 allowed us to be too renegade while MassivelyEffecti thinks ME3 limited renegade responses..

Personally, I was stunned to see an authority figure (Victus) actually remind Shepard exactly who the hell he was talking to.

coming from the previous games where you can be a total dick to authority figures, I was surprised.

I'd have said to Victus "Great, have fun fighting the Reapers on your own!"

I'm kind of a my way or the high-way type guy. If the Primarch wants to save his people, then he plays my game. I won't second-guess him, or give him orders, or undermine his authority in any way. I have no interest in that. But I've seen all the authority sit around and do jack **** against the Reapers. And now I'm the best hope they have of stopping them. So if they want my help, they're going to have to play by my rules. Sure, they can build the Crucible. But can they unite the galaxy together? Can they acquire all the assets they need? Can they make the Crucible any more than just a big floating cherry bomb? I think not.

I love this cause that's how I see it. Shepard has been trying to warn these morons since ME1 (years ago in game) IMO, they have no right to expect Shepard to "mind his attitude" or something around them based on some title they have. They should have used those fancy titles to aid everyone in preparation for the reapers, but they didn't so they should shut up and do as they're told.

[Hazegurl]

KaiserShep wrote...

Oddly, my more renegade Shepard didn't have the prompt to choose. He automatically chose to kill Morinth. Not sure what the requirements are for this scene.

Did you click on all the artwork and items that could be clicked on in Morinth's apt? I had the same issue and thought I wasn't renegade enough but it turned out that I either clicked on nothing in her apt or I was always missing one item (like the gun on her wall) and the option to kill Samara never pops up.

[KaiserShep]

I always make sure to click the items in the apartment. I got the option for my more paragade Shepard, yet the more renegade one didn't. I'm sure I missed something but I can't figure out what.

[AlexMBrennan]

Sure, they can build the Crucible. But can they unite the galaxy together? Can they acquire all the assets they need? Can they make the Crucible any more than just a big floating cherry bomb? I think not.

Your Shepard is welcome to that opinion, but he is simply wrong. Shepard is a highly skilled infantryman, but that's it - ONE infantryman. Sure, Hacket might have to send a dozen N7 soldiers instead to get stuff done but Shepard is replaceable (e.g. "uniting the galaxy" works out exactly the same if Shepard got Wrex, Mordin, Legion and Tali killed i.e. if no one knows him at all)

The turians, on the other hand, are not replaceable.

That is, of course, if ME didn't run entirely on "rule of cool" where the protagonist is the centre of the universe because he happens to be the protagonist of a video game.

[KaiserShep]

The turians had authority status before humanity found the mass relay.

[KaiserShep]

They were given authority to police council space, and manage security for the center of galactic society. They didn't take it by force, at least I don't recall it ever being said that they did.

[Barquiel]

KaiserShep wrote...

Oddly, my more renegade Shepard didn't have the prompt to choose. He automatically chose to kill Morinth. Not sure what the requirements are for this scene.

As long as you have enough paragon or renegade points (the lower your level the less you need to recruit her) to resist her mind control attempts at the end you should get the choice pop-up.

[Jukaga]

StreetMagic wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

How renegade do you have to be in order to get her to say that?

Not sure. It seems to happen everytime I play though. It's kind of an "awkward moment".

Samara's hypocrisy pisses me off to no end, I just wish she could name one thing that set her off; nothing my renegade Shep did was something she wouldn't do herself; she kills in cold blood in her recruitment mission for crying out loud!

She tells you she'll hunt you down if your renegade is slightly higher than your paragon. She wimps out in ME3, mumbles something about because of the circumstances being acceptable within the code. Whatever. I do like her in the quiet Citadel party, she reminds me of people on acid at my old high school parties but it's damn tempting to let her kill herself at the monastery and then plug Falere for good measure.

[DeinonSlayer]

Barquiel wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Oddly, my more renegade Shepard didn't have the prompt to choose. He automatically chose to kill Morinth. Not sure what the requirements are for this scene.

As long as you have enough paragon or renegade points (the lower your level the less you need to recruit her) to resist her mind control attempts at the end you should get the choice pop-up.

Which always struck me as odd. If you lack the coercion points, you fall under Morinth's spell. Shouldn't Shepard have automatically killed Samara instead unless you had the strength to resist Morinth's wiles?

Maybe a better way to handle it would have been for a Shepard who resisted enthrallment to be able to choose who to kill (with Morinth being impressed enough by your ability to resist her to join you if you side with her), but if you fell under Morinth's spell, she kills Samara and vanishes into the night after issuing some creepy parting words to the blank-faced thrall that is Shepard. If your will is too weak, you lose Samara and gain nothing - Morinth keeps on killing.

[FlyingSquirrel]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Maybe a better way to handle it would have been for a Shepard who resisted enthrallment to be able to choose who to kill (with Morinth being impressed enough by your ability to resist her to join you if you side with her), but if you fell under Morinth's spell, she kills Samara and vanishes into the night after issuing some creepy parting words to the blank-faced thrall that is Shepard. If your will is too weak, you lose Samara and gain nothing - Morinth keeps on killing.

I deliberately have my canon Shepard fail Samara's loyalty quest by screwing up the dialogue choices with Morinth in the bar, partly because I can't find a way for the events in Morinth's apartment to make sense.

It doesn't make sense, as pointed out above, for a Shepard who's unable to resist Morinth to behave identically to one choosing [Kill Morinth] from the dialogue wheel. It would be more logical if Shepard simply sat immobilized on the couch while Samara and Morinth duked it out. And if Shepard does resist, then all of a sudden Paragon Shepard is OK with murdering an unarmed, defeated enemy despite declining to do so in numerous similar situations (Maelon, Aresh, Rana Thanoptis, etc.). Add to that the bizarrely half-assed "Morinth impersonates Samara" schtick if you do choose Morinth, and the whole thing wins the "worst ending to the best beginning" award of all ME2's missions.

Modifié par FlyingSquirrel, 26 septembre 2013 - 10:48 .

[o Ventus]

Morinth is a centuries-old serial killer who is on-par with Samara when it comes to biotics. She's hardly unarmed. She's also not defeated, given that by the end of Samara's loyalty mission, she's locked into a standstill with Samara.

[andy6915]

Renegade has always been inconsistent. Sometimes renegade is just being aggressive but doing the right thing (intimidating that guy in the cafe in ME1 to have Bhatia's body returned, or the verbal beatdown that is given with the red option on Tali's loyalty mission), sometimes it's just being a jerk for no more reason then Shepard feels like being one, sometimes it's trolling and going out of his way to give himself something to laugh at (Thane's loyalty mission- "RUN IT'S A BOMB!!!"), acting really immature at times like calling the counsil just to hang up on them, sometimes it's veering right into just plain evil (Samara killed herself to protect her daughter, then I'll kill her daughter now!).

At least paragon Shepard feels consistent. Even at the harshest paragon Shepard acts (punching Zaeed and putting a gun to his head, pistole whipping the guy in Overlord) still feels consistent with the character. But renegade Shepard is just all over the place, to the point where it's impossible to predict how Shep will act on the next renegade response compared to the last one. It's like the writing team couldn't agree on how renegades should act and they all wrote scenes based on their own ideas, which resulted in a Shepard who's just completely unpredictable and inconsistent as crap, acting different from one scene to the next. The only way to play one who acts like the same person is my renegon'ing it, playing mostly renegade, but refusing to pick options where your serious and mean Shepard suddenly decides he's going to troll a guy for fun so he can laugh to himself... Which just leaves you will a lower chance of having the points to do certain renegade dialog in ME2. So you're stuck being all over the place, or staying consistent and being punished for it.

Renegade Shepard's personality keeps changing, feeling like a totally different character from one scene or game to the next. With paragon Shepard, you know what kind of Shepard a person means, but with renegade Shepard you're stuck asking which renegade Shepard seeing there's a trolling kind, a "do whatever it takes to win" kind, an evil psychopath kind, and even a jerk with a heart of gold kind. Renegade Shepard doesn't describe any kind of Shepard in particular because what that kind of Shepard a renegade is changes all the time.

My problem is renegade Shepard is practically a different character in every scene. Some scenes he's "how DARE you treat Tali like this and wrap her in your political BS? I'm going to kill you for doing this to one of my crew!" some scenes he's "oh, you think I'm poor? Discount? Well, you still hurt my feelings/images/forum/emoticons/crying.png", some scenes he's "I'm going to make your mothers sacrifice a waste by killing you anyway, Falere", some scenes he's "I'm going to punch out a guy with a mental problem", some scenes he's "Hey anoleis, she's a spy *grins to himself as he hears them kill each other because it's funny*", sometimes he's "destroy the heretics, they're too dangerous to risk it, and I'm being practical and logical", or "I'm not wasting human lives when we don't know how strong Sovereign is".

All from the same character. Read those examples, and honestly imagine it's from the same person. Confused yet? So am I. Like I said earlier-

with renegade Shepard you're stuck asking which renegade Shepard seeing there's a trolling kind, a "do whatever it takes to win" kind, an evil psychopath kind, and even a jerk with a heart of gold kind. Which is the true renegade? Your guess is as good as mine.

Modifié par andy69156915, 27 septembre 2013 - 01:55 .

[Han Shot First]

This is one thing I would love to see change with the next game. There are maybe only a couple of instances in the series when Shepard *maybe* has a somewhat legitimate reason for dressing down a squadmate. Most of the time he (or she) is just being a gigantic douche and a terrible leader.

If you're going to roleplay a character as the galaxy's worst boss, it should come with consequences.

[cap and gown]

@andy

I think you are exactly right. BW just simply doesn't know what the heck renegade means. (I'm not quite sure they even know what paragon is.) I think they ought to just dump the whole concept and go with an alliances system (side with Jack or Miranda) along with a NPC disposition system (nice/rude).

[andy6915]

cap and gown wrote...

@andy

I think you are exactly right. BW just simply doesn't know what the heck renegade means. (I'm not quite sure they even know what paragon is.) I think they ought to just dump the whole concept and go with an alliances system (side with Jack or Miranda) along with a NPC disposition system (nice/rude).

In my opinion on this? Paragon was the starting point for the writers, and renegade was just  the "okay, we made paragon Shepard, now make renegade Shepard do something completely different then what paragon did", which resulted in renegade Shepard constantly changing how they act because renegade had to dance around everything paragon Shepard did, making sure to not be similar. Renegade had to contantly shift itself to avoid being too like the paragon response/choice. Which left paragon being mostly stable, while renegade had to be an insane roadrunner of randomness.

It is a fact that paragons are the favored alignment, we all know it to be true. Having renegade being the one that is less favored meant it had to accommodate itself around paragon, paragon being like the older sibling who always got the nicest clothes between 2 brothers.

Modifié par andy69156915, 27 septembre 2013 - 02:38 .

[Han Shot First]

I prefer paragade or renegon playthroughs to a pure paragon or pure renegade one, because Shepard just seems a lot more pragmatic and sensible. If you go pure paragon he is too soft or weak and if you pure renegade he's just a small-minded aggressive @sshat that thinks with his fists.