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Explanation for the endings


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#26
AlanC9

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csm4267 wrote...

Ah yes, Mac Walters and Hudson wrote the ending. We have dismissed that claim. If you think about this logically for a minute, Casey and Mac worked for Ray and Greg at the time. Ray was the head RPG guy over at EA, so technically he is Casey and Mac's boss. Anything they do goes and gets overseen by him. This idea that they were locked in a room is just ludicrous. I read that little blurb and the stuff that they claim isn't included in the game was actually included in the game (eg. Cortez lives if you visit him on the Citadel. There are three variations of destroy, not just a color swap. Just shows you how vacuous the people making these claims are). 


Not sure which blurb you're referring to there.  The one I saw didn't mention Cortez at all.

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 septembre 2013 - 04:28 .


#27
AlanC9

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csm4267 wrote...
Another way to look at it is this. Let's pretend the last 20 minutes of the game cost $1 million to make. Do you believe that a business (which goal is to make a profit), would waste time and resources on an ending that makes no sense and let it go for 18 months at risk of profit or otherwise? 


Well, businesses do make mistakes. Some are worth fixing, some not.

But I agree with the general point. Bio doesn't agree with a lot of the criticisms here.

#28
Ebalosus

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csm4267 wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

No it's the theory that makes the most sense to me and it adds up. Ray may be the boss, but he's not part of the writing team. ME3 had writing team of about 6-8 writers I believe. Given how many different kinds of problems the ending had, I can't see how a team of 6 writers could be responsible for what was given. That ending really comes off as a result of something that wasn't critiqued properly. 


Well they had 18 months to fix it, but they wanted to explain it to you instead of changing it (clarification and closure), as they truly believed the ending was really good. Artistic integrity.

Let's not forget the writing team is not the only people working on the ending. There's the audio, beta testers, story editors (check lore for accuracy. Edit story for plot holes :D), level designers, etc, etc. To think that everyone working on the ending had no idea what they were doing is also kind of a bit out there. They were never going to rewrite the ending, because this is how they wanted to end their story.

Another way to look at it is this. Let's pretend the last 20 minutes of the game cost $1 million to make. Do you believe that a business (which goal is to make a profit), would waste time and resources on an ending that makes no sense and let it go for 18 months at risk of profit or otherwise? Either a giant waste of time and money, or there's more than meets the eye. If there was a problem, they would have fixed it by now. Logically speaking anyways. I know there's some people out there that believe they were forced to make this ending against their will or some crazy stuff like that, but there's a reason to this madness (in response to someone asking about the ending).

With all due respect, I think you're missing the point of this thread: We have a good idea regarding the how of the ending, but we're endeavouring to find out the why. If what we got is the way they wanted to end the trilogy, fine, I don't have to like it, but I'd at least like to know why they chose it, beyond "Just because."

#29
Dubozz

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1. When you out of ideas copy ending from the other popular game.
2. The less people know the better.
3. Insist on 'your' artistic vision.
4. If things looks bad - hide in the space bunker.

Modifié par Dubozz, 27 septembre 2013 - 06:11 .


#30
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Dubozz wrote...

1. When you out of ideas copy ending from the other popular game.
2. The less people know the better.
3. Insist on 'your' artistic vision.
4. If things looks bad - hide in the space bunker.


Mass Effect 3's ending is not a Deus Ex copy as I stated. Choices are similar, but that's it.

*sarcasm*
Why don't we go after all those movies, TV shows and such that have reused lines from where the original came from while we're at it. I can't count how many works of fiction have said "what are you going to do, shoot me". Let's retcon all those movies for reusing this line from the original movie.
*sarcasm*

2. The less people know the better.

People these days have no work ethic what so ever, and expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter. Just look at all the people still waiting for an ending explanation 18 months after the game was released. In those 18 months, instead of petitioning or demanding answers, they could have played the game, figured out the ending and moved on to better things. This is sci-fi after all, and I guess lots of people around here can't handle any unanswered questions or stuff that isn't fully explained.

3. Insist on 'your' artistic vision.
You don't own the Mass Effect franchise or the story. People may like it a lot, but that doesn't make you the author of the story. Sure Bioware has used some people's input from the game, but that doesn't give us control over the story, or the ending. Like anything, you paid $60 to have someone write you a story. Don't like how it ended, ah well, move onto the next game.

4. If things looks bad - hide in the space bunker.
Ending isn't as bad as people say. Just requires a bit of thought to appreciate instead of taking everything at face value. Unfortunately, most people do not wish to read between the lines, pay attention or use their imagination to fill in the blanks. Expect everything to be done for them. Lack of work ethic on their part. Every story requires that the audience participate on some level. This is an RPG. People asked for more RPG elements, and using your imagination to fill in the blanks is one of them. Back in the old days of things like D&D required heavily on using your imagination. Other RPGs from perhaps 10 years ago had no pointers of things telling you exactly where to go to find your answers. I'd like to see how people these days handle one of those RPGs. They'd probably quit after 10 minutes.

If what we got is the way they wanted to end the trilogy, fine, I don't have to like it, but I'd at least like to know why they chose it, beyond "Just because."


They wanted a story that people could talk about. Most people did not want this. Instead, they wanted to have all the answers given to them and everything wrapped up. So, what people around here wanted is kind of the opposite of how they wanted to do the ending. It's ultimately up to you to decide how it all ends. The ending was made intentionally vague for you to make up your own mind and let your imagination go wild.

Modifié par csm4267, 27 septembre 2013 - 08:16 .


#31
Ieldra

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Deverz wrote...

Baihu1983 wrote...

They played Deus Ex while writing the ending.


That's the one thing I don't really understand. The endings in both games are almost exactly the same. Why would they do that?

Actually, they aren't similar to the original Deus Ex's rather than to the endings of Deux Ex:Invisible War, particularly with regard to Synthesis and Refuse.  

#32
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I played Deus Ex so long ago that I don't even remember the ending. And Invisible War was a buggy piece of crap at the time, so I never finished it.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 27 septembre 2013 - 08:59 .


#33
JPN17

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Deverz wrote...

Baihu1983 wrote...

They played Deus Ex while writing the ending.


That's the one thing I don't really understand. The endings in both games are almost exactly the same. Why would they do that?


Artistic Integrity

#34
Ebalosus

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csm4267 wrote...

They wanted a story that people could talk about.
Most people did not want this. Instead, they wanted to have all the
answers given to them and everything wrapped up. So, what people around
here wanted is kind of the opposite of how they wanted to do the ending.
It's ultimately up to you to decide how it all ends. The ending was made intentionally vague for you to make up your own mind and let your imagination go wild.

But I can remember that they, and I'm paraphrasing here, "didn't want to do a "Lost," and finish the trilogy with more questions than answers"

Modifié par Ebalosus, 27 septembre 2013 - 10:12 .


#35
Mathias

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csm4267 wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

No it's the theory that makes the most sense to me and it adds up. Ray may be the boss, but he's not part of the writing team. ME3 had writing team of about 6-8 writers I believe. Given how many different kinds of problems the ending had, I can't see how a team of 6 writers could be responsible for what was given. That ending really comes off as a result of something that wasn't critiqued properly. 


Well they had 18 months to fix it, but they wanted to explain it to you instead of changing it (clarification and closure), as they truly believed the ending was really good. Artistic integrity.


Yeah I don't believe that either when they said it. I'm sure some did, but for the most part if they changed the ending they basically would be admitting that they outright screwed the fans over and that the ending was bad. To avoid that, they attempted to make the ending better. Plus I'm sure most of them want to keep their jobs, so a lot of them that thought the ending sucked are just gonna play the game and keep their mouth shut.

#36
Pressedcat

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So what exactly is the purpose of this topic? It seems to be "give me answers, but only answers I want to hear".

If you want an explanation as to the possible meaning of the ending, I suggest you do a search: there are plenty of in-depth discussions as to what it might all mean. You're entirely welcome to dismiss the reasoning, but that is something very different to the endings making "no sense".

If you want an explanation as to why they went for the ending they did, my guess would be they wanted to try something different to the triumphal endings of the first two games; something a bit more downbeat and thought provoking. They may very well have fluffed the attempt, but I don't doubt their intentions were good.

At the end of the day, it was their story to finish, and their right to finish it in a manner they saw fit. Just because the reception was poor does not mean they have to entirely re-write it to please a sub-set of displeased fans (because lets face it, no matter what they changed it would have displeased or disappointed some). They made an attempt to clarify their intentions in the EC, but that's all they felt duty-bound to do. They may very well reconsider trying such an ending in future games, but like it or loathe it the ending for this particular game stands as is.

#37
Ebalosus

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Pressedcat wrote...

So what exactly is the purpose of this topic? It seems to be "give me answers, but only answers I want to hear".

If you want an explanation as to the possible meaning of the ending, I suggest you do a search: there are plenty of in-depth discussions as to what it might all mean. You're entirely welcome to dismiss the reasoning, but that is something very different to the endings making "no sense".

If you want an explanation as to why they went for the ending they did, my guess would be they wanted to try something different to the triumphal endings of the first two games; something a bit more downbeat and thought provoking. They may very well have fluffed the attempt, but I don't doubt their intentions were good.

At the end of the day, it was their story to finish, and their right to finish it in a manner they saw fit. Just because the reception was poor does not mean they have to entirely re-write it to please a sub-set of displeased fans (because lets face it, no matter what they changed it would have displeased or disappointed some). They made an attempt to clarify their intentions in the EC, but that's all they felt duty-bound to do. They may very well reconsider trying such an ending in future games, but like it or loathe it the ending for this particular game stands as is.

We have a good idea regarding the how of the ending, but we're endeavouring to find out the why. If what we got is the way they wanted to end the trilogy, fine, I don't have to like it, but I'd at least like to know why they chose it, beyond "Just because."

#38
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The "why" I think (personally/my opinion) is they went in this thinking this would be the end of Mass Effect, and instead of telling a clear story, they tried their best to make ending options that left it open to the imagination of many types of players.

EXCEPT.... Mass Effect isn't actually ending, for whatever reason. So there isn't that sense of finality anymore. Just confusion about where everything goes from here.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 27 septembre 2013 - 01:57 .


#39
Sir DeLoria

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The ending was bad, but at least we got a chance to exterminate the synthetic bast**ds.

#40
shodiswe

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Necanor wrote...

The ending was bad, but at least we got a chance to exterminate the synthetic bast**ds.


And I got myself rid of the Quarians in one of my playthroughs :)  And Tali died in ME2. Didn't bother to pick her up while she was out there doing questionable stuff that had nothing to do with my mission. Kind of seems to be a theme with the Quarians.

#41
Pressedcat

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Ebalosus wrote...


We have a good idea regarding the how of the ending, but we're endeavouring to find out the why. If what we got is the way they wanted to end the trilogy, fine, I don't have to like it, but I'd at least like to know why they chose it, beyond "Just because."


In that case, I don't know what to say; I can't help you and neither can anyone else on these forums. ME3's developers haven't made their presences felt on these boards for a long time, and likely wont ever do so again. Someone might be able to find a link to some anouncement made by one of the writers as to what their thought process was when they wrote the end, but I doubt such an unambiguous statement exists out there. All you're likely to get is people's personal opinions or anecdotal evidence and vague quotes filtered through their own bias.

#42
Ebalosus

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Pressedcat wrote...

Ebalosus wrote...


We have a good idea regarding the how of the ending, but we're endeavouring to find out the why. If what we got is the way they wanted to end the trilogy, fine, I don't have to like it, but I'd at least like to know why they chose it, beyond "Just because."


In that case, I don't know what to say; I can't help you and neither can anyone else on these forums. ME3's developers haven't made their presences felt on these boards for a long time, and likely wont ever do so again. Someone might be able to find a link to some anouncement made by one of the writers as to what their thought process was when they wrote the end, but I doubt such an unambiguous statement exists out there. All you're likely to get is people's personal opinions or anecdotal evidence and vague quotes filtered through their own bias.


At this point, I'd be happy with off-the-cuff, since the thought-process behind the ending is something that I still cannot wrap my head around. I asked on this forum because maybe, just maybe, someone would have something from one of the devs. Hell, even "Sachel", Game Front's resident Bioware leaker, doesn't know what to say regarding the topic at hand.

#43
Sir DeLoria

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shodiswe wrote...

Necanor wrote...

The ending was bad, but at least we got a chance to exterminate the synthetic bast**ds.


And I got myself rid of the Quarians in one of my playthroughs :)  And Tali died in ME2. Didn't bother to pick her up while she was out there doing questionable stuff that had nothing to do with my mission. Kind of seems to be a theme with the Quarians.


Questionable? I think you mean righteous.

But yeah, why should you save Tali? She only helped you bring down Saren and discovered evidence of the Reapers. I'm sure you would've had much more fun if you hadn't saved her in ME1 in the first place. All the fun you would've had with Sovereign and his Reaper buddies.

#44
Headcount

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Every about the ending from the moment they landed on Earth screams, "We ran out of time." I remember hearing an unused audio file of Jack saying good bye to her students before a final battle. The entire retake Earth mission was supposed to be epic with Shepard running from one fight to the next to help his/her allies. However, BW didn't have the time and EA refused to give another extension. There is nothing amazing or deep about the endings, it’s just something thrown together at the last moment and BW hoped no one would notice.

iakus wrote...

I'm less interested in explanations than assurances that this will never, ever happen again.


Considering how long DAI is taking, I would say they got the message.

#45
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Headcount wrote...

Every about the ending from the moment they landed on Earth screams, "We ran out of time." I remember hearing an unused audio file of Jack saying good bye to her students before a final battle. The entire retake Earth mission was supposed to be epic with Shepard running from one fight to the next to help his/her allies. However, BW didn't have the time and EA refused to give another extension. There is nothing amazing or deep about the endings, it’s just something thrown together at the last moment and BW hoped no one would notice.


Wait.. what? I'll take any news of this that I can. Where are these audio files?

I wonder if that particular scene with the students is just an optional one, or just one she says all the time?

What the hell did they really have in mind? Damnit! :pinched:

#46
angol fear

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Headcount wrote...
 The entire retake Earth mission was supposed to be epic with Shepard running from one fight to the next to help his/her allies. However, BW didn't have the time and EA refused to give another extension. There is nothing amazing or deep about the endings, it’s just something thrown together at the last moment and BW hoped no one would notice. 



Source?

#47
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The only thing worse than knowing the game is half-assed..


Is knowing that Bioware knew it was half-assed themselves, but couldn't rectify it.

#48
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Ebalosus wrote...

But I can remember that they, and I'm paraphrasing here, "didn't want to do a "Lost," and finish the trilogy with more questions than answers"


Ending was confusing to some, but not to others. Varies from person to person. Some people did not have any questions at the end. Bottom line, most of these so-called "promises" are just marketing fluff. We got a lot of stuff answered, but just because they didn't answer every single question someone might have doesn't make it bad. They had a lawyer look into this, and he stated most of these pre-release "promises" don't really mean much.

Yeah I don't believe that either when they said it. I'm sure some did, but for the most part if they changed the ending they basically would be admitting that they outright screwed the fans over and that the ending was bad. To avoid that, they attempted to make the ending better. Plus I'm sure most of them want to keep their jobs, so a lot of them that thought the ending sucked are just gonna play the game and keep their mouth shut.


Another thing is saying that have to appease fans or they might lose their jobs sounds like coercison

Despite what people around here believe, Bioware's fanbase isn't the only people they make games for.

The entire retake Earth mission was supposed to be epic with Shepard running from one fight to the next to help his/her allies. However, BW didn't have the time and EA refused to give another extension


EA doesn't tell Bioware what to do.

The point of the Priority Earth mission provided a sense of hopelessness against an overwhelming enemy force. You can kind of hear on the radio that your war assets that you recruited were wiped out. Around 90-100% of them. What you saw during this level was what was left of the resistence. Reapers just steamrolled you.

Still, the whole having the Earth mission turn from the hopeless theme to some kind of adenaline pumping action scene just screams of people wanting mindless pap, than the stuff they got in the first place.

Modifié par csm4267, 27 septembre 2013 - 03:01 .


#49
Ebalosus

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csm4267 wrote...

Ebalosus wrote...

But I can remember that they, and I'm paraphrasing here, "didn't want to do a "Lost," and finish the trilogy with more questions than answers"


Ending was confusing to some, but not to others. Varies from person to person. Some people did not have any questions at the end. Bottom line, most of these so-called "promises" are just marketing fluff. We got a lot of stuff answered, but just because they didn't answer every single question someone might have doesn't make it bad. They had a lawyer look into this, and he stated most of these pre-release "promises" don't really mean much.

Yeah I don't believe that either when they said it. I'm sure some did, but for the most part if they changed the ending they basically would be admitting that they outright screwed the fans over and that the ending was bad. To avoid that, they attempted to make the ending better. Plus I'm sure most of them want to keep their jobs, so a lot of them that thought the ending sucked are just gonna play the game and keep their mouth shut.


Another thing is saying that have to appease fans or they might lose their jobs sounds like coercison

Despite what people around here believe, Bioware's fanbase isn't the only people they make games for.

The entire retake Earth mission was supposed to be epic with Shepard running from one fight to the next to help his/her allies. However, BW didn't have the time and EA refused to give another extension


EA doesn't tell Bioware what to do.

The point of the Priority Earth mission provided a sense of hopelessness against an overwhelming enemy force. You can kind of hear on the radio that your war assets that you recruited were wiped out. Around 90-100% of them. What you saw during this level was what was left of the resistence. Reapers just steamrolled you.

Still, the whole having the Earth mission turn from the hopeless theme to some kind of adenaline pumping action scene just screams of people wanting mindless pap, than the stuff they got in the first place.

Marketing Fluff?! What I paraphrased came directly from the mouth of Mike Gamble (I believe), the producer of the game. Going by your logic, we really have no reason to trust anything the devs say pre-release, because according to you, that's "marketing fluff"

#50
JonathonPR

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There was a lack of cohesion in the campaign arc. Sub arcs were fine but direction must be firmly established in a fixed story. Motivation should not be determined after actions are taken if possible. This is the reason Bioware had to retroactively justify the Reaper motivations with DLC. A post campaign session to explain the campaign is not something players ever want. If someone is important enough to name they deserve at least two pages of motivation and three pages of backstory. Primary antagonists should have at least 10 pages of each befor the campaign starts. How do they think they would act in scenario X? How would they really act in scenario X? These are basic questions to ask for any character creation. I recommend looking into the games by White Wolf, or L5R, Qin: The Warring States, and other narratively driven rpgs. Put as much work into the "character" of your npcs as your players develop for their character's "character".